The gun show loophole- What do you think?

[Bvamp 604]

dude, there are numerous flea markets here, as well as the gun shows, where the tables do NOT have FFLs.

 

what do you mean, no loophole?

 

 

I hate to say it, but unless you really are "selling your private collection", you need to get the heck off the floor if you dont have an FFL.

 

 

I am not talking about us, where we sell our stashes off. I am talking about the guy the buys 20 saiga12s from whereever, converts them and walks around the gunshow floor selling them at 900 a pop without a license.

 

 

Its going to screw the rest of us out of private transfer, and dont kind yourselves about that.

 

I have worked DAMN HARD to work with CGW. I have heard the other dealers at shows say the same thing.

 

My kind in NY have 20 - 500 guns. They arent there day by day selling off thier shit, and replentishing them week by week.

 

no loophole MY ASS

 

 

There needs to be some order to it, and not just "fuck all, its a right" bullshit. IT AINT YOUR RIGHT IF YOU DONT SPEAK ENGLISH, to start, OR if you are a felon. both can produce ID and pruchase here where I am now.

 

 

Lets make a law that WORKS.

 

I say, you dont vote, and show your party card, you cant have a firearm. Hows that for starters? IT SUCKS, but we have to do SOMETHING guys.......If we do NOTHING, we are going to get screwed......

 

I know ya'll hate me for saying that, but thats how I feel, and it AINT the NYer in me saying it.

[Azrial 1,091]

... However - if you have 30 guns you want to resell because you just bought them last week off centerfire or CDNN, and set up a table at a show or venue and dont hold an FFL, thats NOT fine.

How does that work Ben, how does one buy 30 guns from Centerfire or CDNN at wholesale cost, without an FFL and at plus dealer markup for ordering them and be able to undercut you? How does that work? I mean what you describe would have them paying a good bit more for guns, yet you claim that they are able to undersell you. How does it work, break it down for me.

 

Frankly I am tired of this, you have been telling this story of illicit gun sales, but have no been able to tell anyone how it works.

 

I am saying that if we do not make a few laws that actually work and make sense, that those that be MAY POSSIBLY just fuck us all over and rob us of our right. What choice do we have, exactly? LETS WRITE A COUPLE THAT MAKE SENSE AND THAT WORK. ...

 

1. Unless you have prove yourself to be a dangerous criminal or an incompetent you should be able to own and carry firearm(s).

2. If you use a firearm to hurt someone illegally or in the commission of a crime, we will hang you.

 

There, done. We can throw the rest of the gun laws in the crapper.

 

IF you are preaching for even MORE gun law then we have right now, we are not on the same side.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

dude, there are numerous flea markets here, as well as the gun shows, where the tables do NOT have FFLs.

 

what do you mean, no loophole?

 

 

I hate to say it, but unless you really are "selling your private collection", you need to get the heck off the floor if you dont have an FFL.

 

 

I am not talking about us, where we sell our stashes off. I am talking about the guy the buys 20 saiga12s from whereever, converts them and walks around the gunshow floor selling them at 900 a pop without a license.

 

 

Its going to screw the rest of us out of private transfer, and dont kind yourselves about that.

 

I have worked DAMN HARD to work with CGW. I have heard the other dealers at shows say the same thing.

 

My kind in NY have 20 - 500 guns. They arent there day by day selling off thier shit, and replentishing them week by week.

 

no loophole MY ASS

 

I think YOU are speaking on a different subject than most here.

 

I, and I think most others, are talking about Joe Schmo selling off his gun to Joe Blow. Not Joe Schmo buying 100 guns, and turning around the next day with a table at a gunshow and selling them without an FFL.

 

The term "gunshow loophole" doesn't necessarily deal only with selling at a gunshow. If the supposed "gunshow loophole" was closed, it would eliminate ALL private sales.

[Bvamp 604]

bill, if i were one to break the law -

 

which I am not

 

 

I could just buy 5 saiga 12s from centerfire, and conversion parts sets. convert them, and then walk around with one saiga12 through a show, for 1 grand. sell the 5 guns, make profit. this is illegal, however, but HOW DO YOU CATCH EM.

 

 

Bill, you are an upstanding and current member of the law enforcement, but I wont back down big guy.

 

Burden of proof would be in transfer rate of said firearm.

 

 

I am sorry, Bill. they want to fuck us royally, and i am trying to think of ways that they can implement the law, without fucking us over in the long run.

[Bvamp 604]

guys, no offense, but if you had a gun i wanted, that didnt have a reciept from you personally, as new, I would require a background check on it. WHAT WILL YOU WHINE WHEN IT COMES BACK STOLEN BEFORE I WAS BORN?

 

keep in mind, this is a private sale. If you want me in jail, and sold me a stolen gun, the law might be the least of your worries at that point.......

 

why is all of this so difficult for you all to understand?

[t165 30]

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here Bvamp but I was schooled that before property (monies/fines) or liberty (criminal conviction/incarceration) could be meted out against a United States Citizen then culpability ( to knowingly, intentionally, or recklessly commit a crime) has to be proved. If you unknowingly commit a crime how can one be convicted? Even the legally insane enjoy carte blanche from criminal prosecution.

 

You made mention of a free NCIC check. Is this a new service provided to citizens? And if so, is this meant to be practiced by private citizens selling/buying firearms? Most people do not keep the serial numbers of their firearm(s) written down so if they are stolen they cannot be entered into NCIC. Many people do not even know the make and model of their firearms. I have not entered stolen firearms into NCIC for years but I do recall there are required fileds and absent those the system will not accept the information.

 

My local FFL was saying the other day that in Indiana he has no way of knowing if the firearms he buys/trades for are stolen or not. I'm sure the local PD and sheriff's department will run the NCIC check for him but that is no guarantee it was entered in a timely manner or entered at all due to human error or lack of information. He states at gun shows held in Indiana no provisions are in place to ascertain if any firearm he buys/trades for is stolen. I cannot see how a government can punish a citizen without providing a preventative remedy.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

why is all of this so difficult for you all to understand?

 

Who's not understanding?

 

Point out where exactly this "loophole" exists. The law says I don't need to run a background check on someone, who resides in the same state as I, if I want to sell them one of my guns. Where's the "loophole"? There isn't one. I'm simply doing what I'm legally allowed to do.

 

You seem to be under the impression that "gunshow loophole" only means private sales on a gunshow floor.

[Azrial 1,091]

.... I could just buy 5 saiga 12s from centerfire, and conversion parts sets. convert them, and then walk around with one saiga12 through a show, for 1 grand. sell the 5 guns, make profit. this is illegal, however, but HOW DO YOU CATCH EM. ...

What does this mean?

 

How Ben? How do you order five S12 from Centerfire without an FFL involved? I am really interested, because it is against the law for them to transfer firearms to a non-FFL directly. If this is so, and you claim that you are mandated by your employer to report all firearms wrongdoing, then you need to alert the BATF! I will call them tomorrow and ask them if they will will sell S12 directly to me, but we both know that they will say NO.

 

I am calling Bullshit, you can not show where this has ever happened.

 

Burden of proof would be in transfer rate of said firearm.

What the hell is this supposed to mean, you forget that I used to be in the business. This is gibberish.

 

I am sorry, Bill. they want to fuck us royally, and i am trying to think of ways that they can implement the law, without fucking us over in the long run.

Ben, quit. You can not make "deals" with these rabid anti-gun liberals. They have no interest in anything except eradication of all firearms in the hands of private citizens. Everything else is just a lie until they achieve their ultimate goal.

 

I have been in law enforcement for over 20 years from slick sleeve to CEO. If they were really interested in CRIME CONTROL, don't you think one of them might have taken a moment to talk to me? Because not one ever has.

 

You plan is not helpful, it only makes you a collaborator with the enemy of our civil rights.

[Bvamp 604]

CGW has a near 100% compliance with BATF over a long course of years.

 

However, as private citizens, how are we to ensure that we arent breaking the law? It is a crime to sell to a foreign national, felon, or other, PRIAVETLY. How the heck do we check that?

 

 

It should be ten years, if a gun comes back to you or me (it wont come back to me as such) if you sale to personages of this type, or any other type that cannot own a gun in the USA. IT SHOULD BE A CRIME to do so, as well. I dont buy it, man. there should be extremly still penalties. If you sell a s12 with an md20 to a terrorist, and dont know it, and they go out and kill ten people, you should be hung. knowing it or not. free enterprise or free priviledge or not.

 

just my loud two cents.

 

 

do keep in mind this is Ben talking, and not anyone else.....

[Bvamp 604]

bill, i dont want to make a deal, i want to head them off at the pass.....

 

 

you guys are missing my point completely.

[t165 30]

Speaking for myself Bvamp, I'm arguing in support of private sales of firearms between law abiding citizens selling their personal guns. Not guys breaking the law by setting themselves up in a unrestricted bootleg firearm distribution operation.

 

If an unlicensed citizen sets themselves up in "business" selling newly purchased firearms in quantity then that is against the law and the proper authorites will catch up with them eventually. There are plenty of guys who have tried this in the past who have gotten to visit some of our finest federal prisons. However, the system works more effectively if private citizens become involved and shares information.

 

My grandfather/father are licensed automobile dealers here in Indiana. They pay the licensing fees, insurance and follow applicable laws which govern dealers. If a person sells more than 13 vehicles in a calender year then they have to become a licensed dealer. Again, these laws are more effective if the riff-raff is brought to the attention of the authorities. What I'm trying to say is that if a person wants to become a gun dealer then follow the law like Bvamp...I agree with him 100% on the licensed/business side of this. The man I mentioned earlier in this thread who was killed in the LE shootout was buying his product from mexicans in Chicago. One method he used to pay for his dope was buying/stealing firearms locally and using them as barter thus arming the Chicago thugs. They actually preferred the firearms to money. Despicable!

[Kwicko 8]

Here in Texas, I'm allowed to buy and sell a certain number of cars each year without being considered a "dealer" and having to have a dealership location. As such, I can pick up a used car cheap, fix it up a bit, and resell it at a profit, if I am able to do so. I believe the limit is 7 cars per year, if memory serves.

 

It seems you should be able to do the same with guns. So, as BVamp says, you could buy 5 S12s, pay the FFL fees and shipping (and the dealer markup, even), buy the conversion parts, put in your labor (aka "fix them up a bit"), and resell them at a profit. TECHNICALLY, you're "manufacturing" and "dealing" the guns at that point, but if you only do it a certain number of times per year, it's not a living, but a hobby.

 

Now, if you don't pay your taxes on the profit, you might be in big trouble.

 

I think where we're getting hung up with BVamp is whether there should be a set limit on how many guns you can do this with in a year, or how many you can sell or transfer without becoming a "dealer" in the eyes of the law. Should that number be one a month? One a week? Three thousand a year? At what point do you stop being Joe Citizen, simply selling a gun or two from his collection, and become Joe the Gun Dealer, modifying and selling for your daily bread?

[SOPMOD 254]

Here in Texas, I'm allowed to buy and sell a certain number of cars each year without being considered a "dealer" and having to have a dealership location. As such, I can pick up a used car cheap, fix it up a bit, and resell it at a profit, if I am able to do so. I believe the limit is 7 cars per year, if memory serves.

 

It seems you should be able to do the same with guns. So, as BVamp says, you could buy 5 S12s, pay the FFL fees and shipping (and the dealer markup, even), buy the conversion parts, put in your labor (aka "fix them up a bit"), and resell them at a profit. TECHNICALLY, you're "manufacturing" and "dealing" the guns at that point, but if you only do it a certain number of times per year, it's not a living, but a hobby.

 

Now, if you don't pay your taxes on the profit, you might be in big trouble.

 

I think where we're getting hung up with BVamp is whether there should be a set limit on how many guns you can do this with in a year, or how many you can sell or transfer without becoming a "dealer" in the eyes of the law. Should that number be one a month? One a week? Three thousand a year? At what point do you stop being Joe Citizen, simply selling a gun or two from his collection, and become Joe the Gun Dealer, modifying and selling for your daily bread?

 

 

I say if you make less than $50,000 per year you should be able to sell guns until you reach $50,000 per year.Kind of a Entrepreneurial stimulus program for right wing extremists

[Bounce12 407]

I say if you make less than $50,000 per year you should be able to sell guns until you reach $50,000 per year.Kind of a Entrepreneurial stimulus program for right wing extremists

 

 

 

There you go again - deciding for others what "enough" is and therefore what "too much" is.

 

Where in the 2nd amendment does it say you should only be able to make "thus and such?"

 

We've got to break away from this "regulate what people can make" mentality.

 

We're fighting over what is "enough" and what is "too much" instead of fighting to get RID of the over-regulation all together. That's what we should be focusing on.