Finally got to break in my baby!

[VWBeamer 1]

I forget to mention, in the saiga manual it specifically says to oil the chamber.

 

This from page 20 of my manual-

 

-after cleaning is done, lubricate the barrel bore, the chamber and choke tube with clean rifle oil.

 

and not just a thin film either, it says to use a bore brush dipped in rifle oil

 

-

On table 4 of the same page it states The bolt, bolt support, receiver guides-/..Wipe he components with waste soaked in rifle oil and wrung out

 

Think the Russian are unaware of oil causing chambers to explode??

 

It also states the whole shotgun should be kept cleaned and lubricated.

 

Now where in the manual ( that I can find) is there a warning or even is it mentioned not oil the bolt face or gas system.

 

I'll admit it does not specifically say to oil the gas system, but it also does not say not to. It does say to keep the whole shotgun clean and lubricated, and the gas sytem is part of the shot gun.

 

 

Again, no hard feelings or trying to get in a pissing match. But I think some people are trying to apply rules based on older/ different weapons and different oils.

Edited June 25, 2009 by VWBeamer

[VWBeamer 1]

I have to differ with Etek on one issue.

The bolt face and chamber should NEVER be oiled or lubed with ANYTHING on any gun, nor should any lube be put in the magazine that will transfer to the ammo. Modern firearms rely on the cartridge body expanding and obturating to grip the chamber walls on firing, and rely on it gripping the chamber walls when pressure is at maximum to seal it. That's why centerfire cartridges use a brass case or a thin steel one designed to expand under pressure, and spring back into shape after peak pressure subsides to make extraction easy. Reducing the friction in the chamber allows the case to slam back against the bolt or breech with full force, and can blow the bolt open at peak pressure, causing what is known as a "ka-boom", that is, the receiver can blow out and possibly destroy the gun. The internet is rife with "ka-booms" that shooters can't understand why they happened. Absent overload or failure to fully close the bolt upon firing, lubed chambers are usually the cause.

 

Yeah, I know, you've done it for years with no problems. Rest assured, your time will come if you persist in defying the laws of science.

 

Oil your bore if you want, but keep the chamber, bolt face, and mag interior dry, and then dry the bore before you shoot, if you value your eyes and face, not to mention your gun.

 

If you must lube the inside of your mag to make it function smoother, use a Teflon spray that dries and leave a thin dry film that adheres to the inside of the mag walls and won't transfer to the ammmo and be carried into the chamber.

 

As far as oiling the tappet or piston in an S 12, ANY oil will burn under the high heat of firing, and will create carbon that will be difficult to remove. Yes, even synthetic or two-stroke oil. Again, I know you've done it for years and your gas chamber stays clean. So your gun is "special", and the laws of science don't apply to it. Where do you think the carbon come from when you shoot with a completely dry gas system? DUH!!!! Keeping your gas system clean and dry is the best thing you can do for it. Note that FN-FALs have a fully adjustable gas system to allow increasing gas pressure as carbon builds up in the gas system in sustained use in combat, to keep the rifle firing when it's needed most. There's good reason for that, and it works. FAL owners know to not oil their gas pistons.

 

Use your favorite lube for the other moving parts in your Saiga. Break-Free CLP is an excellent lube if you want to replace it frequently, a molybdenum grease is better for high pressure high friction components like the bolt and bolt carrier, with CLP everywhere else (except in the chamber or gas system).

 

Now, it's your gun, and if you decide to tempt fate, knock yourself out. But you've been warned. If you insist on lubing your chamber, don't come here and cry that Saigas are crummy shotguns because yours blew up, and if you oil your gas system and it cokes up, enjoy the expenditure of elbow grease you'll need to clean it. There's no known really good solvent that will remove the cooked carbon in a gas system. Ask AR 15 owners that shoot a lot. That question is common on AR 15 sites, and so far, no one has found a really good way to remove baked on carbon from AR 15 bolt carriers and bolts except lots of hard work. Those that oil or lube the wrong parts have worse carbon build up, and there is even a special tool to remove baked on carbon from the inside of the AR 15 bolt carrier. I have one.

 

+1 good read, very helpful.

 

All he proved is that he has never read the owners manual that came with his saiga 12 shotgun, because it specifically tells you to lube the chamber.

[goingpro 2]

I forget to mention, in the saiga manual it specifically says to oil the chamber.

 

This from page 20 of my manual-

 

-after cleaning is done, lubricate the barrel bore, the chamber and choke tube with clean rifle oil.

 

and not just a thin film either, it says to use a bore brush dipped in rifle oil

 

-

On table 4 of the same page it states The bolt, bolt support, receiver guides-/..Wipe he components with waste soaked in rifle oil and wrung out

 

Think the Russian are unaware of oil causing chambers to explode??

 

It also states the whole shotgun should be kept cleaned and lubricated.

 

Now where in the manual ( that I can find) is there a warning or even is it mentioned not oil the bolt face or gas system.

 

I'll admit it does not specifically say to oil the gas system, but it also does not say not to. It does say to keep the whole shotgun clean and lubricated, and the gas sytem is part of the shot gun.

 

 

Again, no hard feelings or trying to get in a pissing match. But I think some people are trying to apply rules based on older/ different weapons and different oils.

 

i was getting a little worried because i used a little clp on my bolt and a bit on the chamber as well. good find!!! +1 to this as well

[StarPD 6]

I never said to not oil the bolt, carrier, or any other PARTS inside the gun. I said to not oil the bolt FACE or chamber.

Of course, the chamber and bore should be oiled between uses to prevent corrosion or rust. But it must be wiped dry before firing. As a matter of fact, it's not a good practice to not wipe an oiled bore clean before shooting. There HAVE been instances where some thick oils left in a bore have created overpressure that bulged or even blew up a barrel. A friend of mine had a shotgun hanging on the wall in his office that had a bulged and split barrel from just that.

 

So while oiling a chamber and bore will protect against corrosion, wiping them dry before firing is a good practice.

 

And if you think a shotgun shell doesn't grip the walls of the chamber in firing, what do you think contains the many tens of thousands of pounds of pressure created upon firing? The bolt alone? Guess again. A locked bolt will NOT contain overpressure, as witnessed by gun destruction from overloads. The fact is that the bolt lugs or locking shoulder just cannot withstand the excess pressure created by an oiled chamber. Maybe for a while, but eventually, the law of averages catches up with the unwary, and the stress put upon bolt lugs or locking shoulder is cumulative, and eventually the stresses that added up overcome the bolt's or locking shoulder's metallic structure, and they fail. Oiling a chamber produces what amounts to overpressure on the bolt lugs because the chamber has not done it's job of containing the pressure. And if you want some sort of documented proof that oiling a chamber can't produce a "Ka-boom", check the many gun forums for the many instances whereupon shooters can't figure out why their gun blew up on them with no other cause after scientific investigation.

 

I'm not surprised that someone would claim that doing something dangerous doesn't affect them and they've been doing it for years with no ill effect. No matter the subject, every warning I've ever read on the net is countered by someone who claims they've been doing it for years with no problems. I suspect that often they are the ones who have their guns blow up on them and have no reasonable explanation, i.e. overload, broken parts, etc. They usually post their experience, asking others why their guns blew up on them, or they claim the manufacturer made a faulty gun.

 

Oil your chambers all you want guys. It's your guns, and your eyes and faces.

 

Oh yeah, and FWIW, unless you're shooting milsurp ammo that is sealed at the primer and case mouth, the oil in a chamber CAN migrate into a cartridge kept in an oiled chamber. See, smokeless propellant (gunpowder) is as hygroscopic as brake fluid, maybe more. It will suck oil or moisture from anywhere it can, including moisture from the air. That's why even sealed milsurp is frequently kept in battle packs and/or sealed "spam cans". You want documentation on that too? Okay, it happened to me. The old "Super Vel" ammo wasn't sealed anywhere. I kept a round in the oiled chamber of my old Walther PPK .380 ACP. When I went to fire it, I got a squib that left a bullet in the bore. Luckily, I investigated the situation and found the bullet obstructing the bore before I fired again. I had to have the gunsmith in the gun store that operated the indoor range remove the bullet from the bore so I could continue shooting. He also advised me to never leave a loaded round in an oiled chamber and told me I was a dummy for doing so. He was right, but I learned from it. Learn yourself if that's what it takes.

 

Ya know, gun forums are rife with opinions and controversy, and that's okay, except when it involves safety. Those who refuse to learn from others when gun safety is involved are leaving themselves wide open to catastrophe. It's something one must do at their own risk.

[VWBeamer 1]

I respect your opinion, and no doubt it applies to other weapons and is good advice as a precaution for the saiga 12. I think it's sound advice for the chamber to be checked before firing any weapon. In the saiga owner's manual it does say to check chamber before firing and to wipe any fouling or grease from it.

 

There is no warning not to fire it with oil in the chamber.

 

I refuse to believe there is a great danger, or we would have documented cases of catastrophic failures. After a quick GIS, I can find none.

In fact I can find no documentation of a catastrophic failure of any saiga, of any kind. I open to changing my mind if someone can find one.

 

I don't think you have proven that this causes a danger to either the weapon or the operator.

 

non the less, I urge everyone to do what they feel is safe and to do there own research in this matter.

[Etek 32]

There is no warning not to fire it with oil in the chamber.

 

That's because the Russians are not quite as safety concious as we are. Besides, you're reading a manual that was translated from Russian. Things 'may' get lost in translation.

 

I refuse to believe there is a great danger, or we would have documented cases of catastrophic failures. After a quick GIS, I can find none.

In fact I can find no documentation of a catastrophic failure of any saiga, of any kind. I open to changing my mind if someone can find one.

 

 

That's because everyone else in the world already knows not to oil the chamber, bolt face or gas system.

You just haven't caught on yet.

[Etek 32]

You concern is respected, but I remain unconvinced.

 

Non of the above applies to a shot gun. a freaking plastic shell is not gripping the chamber.

 

Not to get in a pissing contest, but I have fired more rounds thru a AR-15 than most here, unless they have also served. In the desert, we would spray CLP all over the whole gun. Out of the millions of rounds fired , never heard of a catastrophic failure. Never had a warning not to spray the gas system or chamber.

 

If it was that big of a problem, why is there no warning in the saiga owner's manual?

 

But, since this common knowledge, and such a no no, I guess it shouldn't be too hard for one of you to find a documented case of a weapon failure cased by oil in the gas system, after all there are thousands of us red necks putting axle grease and such on our weapons.

 

If I wrong, i will say as much, but i need something better than old wives tails based on older arms and different oils.

 

I sure you concern is for my safety, but don't insult me with the axle grease comments and others insinuating I'm stupid.

 

See all that carbon on your Bolt in your AR? Notice how hard it is to get off? Guess where else it's building up...the gas port and gas tube.

 

Were you in the Military? If so and I caught you "Spraying CLP all over the whole gun" or oiling the gas system, chamber or bolt face I'd have you busted down to Seaman Recruit and cleaning bilges.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

See all that carbon on your Bolt in your AR? Notice how hard it is to get off? Guess where else it's building up...the gas port and gas tube.

 

Were you in the Military? If so and I caught you "Spraying CLP all over the whole gun" or oiling the gas system, chamber or bolt face I'd have you busted down to Seaman Recruit and cleaning bilges.

I was in the marines and served in iraq, i definitly left my gun a little wet and never had a single jam or misfeed.

 

I would see people go to the range and wouldn't put any CLP on thier guns for the entire range week. last day they were fighting jams. I would at a minimum spray some CLP into the bolt carrier to keep everything loose. worst thing i had to deal with the next day was a little oil spray the first round or so. No jams, no problems.

 

theres a lot of misinformation out there, even in the military.

[VWBeamer 1]

You concern is respected, but I remain unconvinced.

 

Non of the above applies to a shot gun. a freaking plastic shell is not gripping the chamber.

 

Not to get in a pissing contest, but I have fired more rounds thru a AR-15 than most here, unless they have also served. In the desert, we would spray CLP all over the whole gun. Out of the millions of rounds fired , never heard of a catastrophic failure. Never had a warning not to spray the gas system or chamber.

 

If it was that big of a problem, why is there no warning in the saiga owner's manual?

 

But, since this common knowledge, and such a no no, I guess it shouldn't be too hard for one of you to find a documented case of a weapon failure cased by oil in the gas system, after all there are thousands of us red necks putting axle grease and such on our weapons.

 

If I wrong, i will say as much, but i need something better than old wives tails based on older arms and different oils.

 

I sure you concern is for my safety, but don't insult me with the axle grease comments and others insinuating I'm stupid.

 

See all that carbon on your Bolt in your AR? Notice how hard it is to get off? Guess where else it's building up...the gas port and gas tube.

 

Were you in the Military? If so and I caught you "Spraying CLP all over the whole gun" or oiling the gas system, chamber or bolt face I'd have you busted down to Seaman Recruit and cleaning bilges.

 

WTF, Seaman Recruit. The Navy typically do not use there weapons in the same conditions as ground troops. this why you have no real world experience with weapons. The dust in the middle east can be very fine, almost like talcum powder. You either spend time cleaning it, or, the lazy way, spray it with CLP. I'm pretty lazy.

 

BTW,I present facts and all can do is pull excuses out your navy ass.

 

You are backing up your claims by saying that no one sprays lube in the chamber and that the russians made a mistake in the owners manual? Bawahhaha!

[Etek 32]

VW Beatle,

 

What makes you assume I'm Navy? But then again don't the Navy SEALS go places other than the water? Ever dealt with salt water AND talcum grit?

 

I'm a professional in Ordnance.

 

You obviously are not 'Semen Recruit'

[VWBeamer 1]

ok, you are right, and the owners manual is wrong.

 

Hey, let's trust this anonymous poster on the internet and ignore the instructions in the owners manual that came with the 600 dollar shotgun I just bought.

[Etek 32]

VW,

 

We're TRYING to help you and assist others to the dangers of oiling the gas system of your Saiga.

 

Think of it this way. Even if your Dad didn't get hurt doing something but told you not to do it would you listen?

Many of us have been there OK?

 

I do not want to read about you in the newspaper after folks tried to steer you right.

[VWBeamer 1]

You must be a democrat....trying to save me from myself. You the same type that make me wear my seat belt in my own car. Tax cigarettes because they are bad for me.

 

So thanks for the advice, but don't flame me because I'm doing what it says to do in the owners manual.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I do not want to read about you in the newspaper after folks tried to steer you right.

How many people have you read about in newspapers due to this? I mean honestly... there a LOT of idiots out there, and theres gotta be just as many guns...

 

I'm not advocating a few CCs on the gas piston, but leaving a film won't hurt a damn thing.

[Etek 32]

I do not want to read about you in the newspaper after folks tried to steer you right.

How many people have you read about in newspapers due to this? I mean honestly... there a LOT of idiots out there, and theres gotta be just as many guns...

 

I'm not advocating a few CCs on the gas piston, but leaving a film won't hurt a damn thing.

 

I agree 100%. A thin film to prevent corossion is fine. But douching the whole firearm is a different story.

Oil grabs grit.

And oiling the gas system is a poor practice.

[Etek 32]

You must be a democrat....trying to save me from myself. You the same type that make me wear my seat belt in my own car. Tax cigarettes because they are bad for me.

 

So thanks for the advice, but don't flame me because I'm doing what it says to do in the owners manual.

 

Nope, voted Republican since before you were a stain on your Mom's panties.

I drove Stock Cars. Seat belts help.

I'll bet you don't wear yours.

I buy my ciggies from the Indian Reservation. Screw the taxes.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

You must be a democrat....trying to save me from myself. You the same type that make me wear my seat belt in my own car. Tax cigarettes because they are bad for me.

 

So thanks for the advice, but don't flame me because I'm doing what it says to do in the owners manual.

 

I'm not saying that it's definitely a mistake, but you must have noticed what a crappy translation the "English" owner's manual is. You can barely make sense of some of the sentences in there. Think about it.

[VWBeamer 1]

You must be a democrat....trying to save me from myself. You the same type that make me wear my seat belt in my own car. Tax cigarettes because they are bad for me.

 

So thanks for the advice, but don't flame me because I'm doing what it says to do in the owners manual.

 

I'm not saying that it's definitely a mistake, but you must have noticed what a crappy translation the "English" owner's manual is. You can barely make sense of some of the sentences in there. Think about it.

 

 

True. but a little oil ain't going to kill you either or it would have already happened.

[DogMan 2,343]

Has anyone ever heard of anyone in the gun world using any of the oill additive products like Slick-50 of other names that suposedly lubricate by filling microscopic pores in metal without creating a film or residue?

[Etek 32]

Has anyone ever heard of anyone in the gun world using any of the oill additive products like Slick-50 of other names that suposedly lubricate by filling microscopic pores in metal without creating a film or residue?

 

For firearms? Hard to say.

 

The 'Magic' ingedient in Slick 50 is a Zinc compound that Ford insisted be in the oils used in their engines using flat tappet cams. Without it the camshafts 'wiped' pretty quickly.

All newer oils in automotive and truck grades already have it.

If you want some of the stuff but don't want to pay $35.00+ for a quart you can get it in 16 Oz. at a Ford Dealer for cheap. Just ask for their Oil Additive. Same stuff.

Who knows, it might be good for the fire control group or bottom of bolt carrier. But a dab of grease might do the same thing.

Give it a try but keep it out of the gas system.

[DogMan 2,343]

Has anyone ever heard of anyone in the gun world using any of the oill additive products like Slick-50 of other names that suposedly lubricate by filling microscopic pores in metal without creating a film or residue?

 

For firearms? Hard to say.

 

The 'Magic' ingedient in Slick 50 is a Zinc compound that Ford insisted be in the oils used in their engines using flat tappet cams. Without it the camshafts 'wiped' pretty quickly.

All newer oils in automotive and truck grades already have it.

If you want some of the stuff but don't want to pay $35.00+ for a quart you can get it in 16 Oz. at a Ford Dealer for cheap. Just ask for their Oil Additive. Same stuff.

Who knows, it might be good for the fire control group or bottom of bolt carrier. But a dab of grease might do the same thing.

Give it a try but keep it out of the gas system.

 

The gas system is where I thought it could possibly be used. The reason being that you could remove all traces of it and the metal itself would still be "treated". At least that is how these products are advertized. Its just a crazy thought. I have no reason to try it myself because I'm not having any issues but it would be interesting to see someone else give it a try.

[Etek 32]

Has anyone ever heard of anyone in the gun world using any of the oill additive products like Slick-50 of other names that suposedly lubricate by filling microscopic pores in metal without creating a film or residue?

 

For firearms? Hard to say.

 

The 'Magic' ingedient in Slick 50 is a Zinc compound that Ford insisted be in the oils used in their engines using flat tappet cams. Without it the camshafts 'wiped' pretty quickly.

All newer oils in automotive and truck grades already have it.

If you want some of the stuff but don't want to pay $35.00+ for a quart you can get it in 16 Oz. at a Ford Dealer for cheap. Just ask for their Oil Additive. Same stuff.

Who knows, it might be good for the fire control group or bottom of bolt carrier. But a dab of grease might do the same thing.

Give it a try but keep it out of the gas system.

 

The gas system is where I thought it could possibly be used. The reason being that you could remove all traces of it and the metal itself would still be "treated". At least that is how these products are advertized. Its just a crazy thought. I have no reason to try it myself because I'm not having any issues but it would be interesting to see someone else give it a try.

 

I see what you mean. Give it a try and let us know how it works out. www.Slick50.com advertises several products that might interest you.

[kencrawleysc 11]

Hi Gents,

noob here

 

I won't get my Tromix S17 until December. But, I have been using titanium disulphide powder (WS2) as a dry lubricant for about the past 4 years! It has replaced my use of molybdenum disulfide since 1980. Prices have come way down for 0.4 micron powder. Yes, I add it to most all of my lubricating oils & greases.

 

sources of WS2

 

I burnish the powder into the metal surfaces with a Q-Tip or a rag (as appropriate) in my .50AE weapons: Desert Eagles & Tromix Sledghammer. Dogman's comment got my attention IMO the best way to fill the asperities (micro crevices/cracks) in a dry mechanical device like a firearm is to either spray at high pressure (a hazmat issue), or burnish. Having a grease or oil with moly in it is a slooow way to get the protection desired.

 

 

Since Tungsten disulphide has a higher "melting point" 1250C/2282F than moly 1185C/2165F, and is sexier, it may work as a dry lube for the gas piston parts. After all, it is used as the dry lube for furnace conveyor chains and rollers, and Nasa uses the stuff too. WS2 according to Wiki

The teflon idea just wont work, it melts at 327C/621F, turning to that carbon crap nobody wants to clean out.

 

Great forum; I am glad I stumbled upon it. I am tired of watcing CNN and AlJazzera here in Kuwait, so catching up on all the posts in this forum should keep me busy for a couple of weeks. I will try to not make inane question posts until I have used the slick search function the software has!

 

Ken

[Vonstab 0]

I can tell you one thing about my S12. Yesterday i was firing mine and after about a hundred rounds it quit ejecting my rounds. I was firing some Win 1300fps 7.5 shot which has always cycled well. At first i thought something happened but my buddy said the slide did come back some. I already has my plug set on 3 so i loaded up some 3" mags and they cycled fine. Took the gun apart and immediately saw the issue. After previously cleaning it i had sprayed rem-oil down the gas tube and forgot to dry it out. the powder mixed with it and turned to paste and all the shooting i was doing dried it out. It gummed it up to the point only the magnums i had would cycle. Cleaned it out. Kept it dry and no more problems. A regular gas tubed weapon wont have this issue because there is not a piston rod and puc in the chamber. In the Marines we lubed everything on the M16 but dried it afterwards, even a bit of lube in the gas system, BUT it wasnt a piston driven system. If you leave a wet lube in the gas tube it will start to clog and cycling will deteriate.

[S-12 Junkie 0]

Hi Gents,

noob here

 

I won't get my Tromix S17 until December. But, I have been using titanium disulphide powder (WS2) as a dry lubricant for about the past 4 years! It has replaced my use of molybdenum disulfide since 1980. Prices have come way down for 0.4 micron powder. Yes, I add it to most all of my lubricating oils & greases.

 

sources of WS2

 

I burnish the powder into the metal surfaces with a Q-Tip or a rag (as appropriate) in my .50AE weapons: Desert Eagles & Tromix Sledghammer. Dogman's comment got my attention IMO the best way to fill the asperities (micro crevices/cracks) in a dry mechanical device like a firearm is to either spray at high pressure (a hazmat issue), or burnish. Having a grease or oil with moly in it is a slooow way to get the protection desired.

 

 

Since Tungsten disulphide has a higher "melting point" 1250C/2282F than moly 1185C/2165F, and is sexier, it may work as a dry lube for the gas piston parts. After all, it is used as the dry lube for furnace conveyor chains and rollers, and Nasa uses the stuff too. WS2 according to Wiki

The teflon idea just wont work, it melts at 327C/621F, turning to that carbon crap nobody wants to clean out.

 

Great forum; I am glad I stumbled upon it. I am tired of watcing CNN and AlJazzera here in Kuwait, so catching up on all the posts in this forum should keep me busy for a couple of weeks. I will try to not make inane question posts until I have used the slick search function the software has!

 

Ken

Brand new to the forom ben reading for 2 month's enjoying all the info i've been getting I have polished the bolt and the carrier helped a bit. Gunfixers gas plug helped a bit. coating all the moving parts puc piston hamer carrier and all after a good cleaning with Sprayon dry graghite lube and now it eats everything IDK if there is another brand out there but good luck finding 1 can

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

OP,

What if you 'need' to fire some Winchester? Let's say.... it's the only thing you can get your hands on and you need the weapon for SD or survival.

 

It took a lot of work, but all of my 12s run off of Winchester Universal. I used it as my baseline testing ammo. I know if it will eat the Universal.... it will eat anything I can find. Kind of a worse case scenario type thing.... but it depends on what your goals are with the weapon.