nexus 0 Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 Is it at all possible to swap in a complete AKM bolt and carrier assembly? I can't seem to swap one in to test the general fit, the ejector seems to get in the way and I don't know about the locking lugs either. Obviously you'd check headspace. Has anybody ever successfully traded one out? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) Is it at all possible to swap in a complete AKM bolt and carrier assembly? No. The exact parts would be from the ak103 and ak104. http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/ak103.shtml This is the factory gun. from Wiki The AK-103 is a modern, Russian-designed version of the famous AKM assault rifle, chambered for the 7.62x39mm M43 round. It combines the AKM design with developments from the AK-74 and AK-74M, with the use of plastics to replace metal or wooden components wherever possible to reduce overall weight. The AK-103 can be fitted with a variety of sights, including laser, night vision, and telescopic sights, plus a suppressor and the GP-30 grenade launcher. The AK-103 is most likely in limited service with select units in the Russian Army Spetsnaz, due to the good armor and cover penetration of the 7.62x39mm, and is already being exported to other countries such as Venezuela. During the Red Mosque siege (2007) in Islamabad, Pakistani special forces used the AK-103. Differences from the AKM series include redesigned rear and front trunnions, as well as a 90 degree gas block, AK-74 style front sight block, the use of a black ribbed 30-round magazine constructed of phenolic resin (which is AKM-compatible as well), an AK-74-type muzzle brake, and black synthetic furniture with a heat shield. The AK-104 is a compact version of the AK-103. It combines features from the older AKS-74U carbine with features from the AK-74M rifle, giving a more accurate carbine. It is also chambered for 7.62x39mm ammunition. The weapon is essentially a re-calibered AK-74M developed alongside the AK-101 as an updated version of the aging AKM and AKMS assault rifles. Edited August 7, 2009 by my762buzz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 What about asking Murray's Gunsmithing if he can make the parts we are looking for, and what he would charge to do so. He already makes the SKS parts, I imagine Saiga parts should be easy for for him to reproduce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 Any IDEA is a good idea... Especially at this point... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 Tell you what guys, I have a friend who is an engineer and has a machine shop over at his farm. If I see him this Sunday, I'll ask him to take a look at the firing pin, extractor and bolt. If anyone can replicate these parts, he can. If he can't, he may know someone else who can. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JK-47 33 Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 Guys: http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?prod...=279&page=1 It's a small stem bolt for 7.62x39mm. For 23$ it should be worth a try. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 That looks about right. Maybe I'll order one just to compare it. Would it be necessary to ask the local smith to check headspace, or can a quick comparison with a micro caliper confirm that? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 That looks about right. Maybe I'll order one just to compare it. Would it be necessary to ask the local smith to check headspace, or can a quick comparison with a micro caliper confirm that? If that aligns perfectly with the breech face and clears the ejector, then it might work. Yes, any bolt replacement should be checked for head space even if it was a saiga factory exact replacement. Using an improperly headspaced bolt can result in high pressure gases and maybe steel bits flying at your face. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 I got to test the ak74 firing pin today. I shot 100 wolf military classic rounds through it. All of them fired just fine. No pierced primers. No problems at all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 my762buzz... Where did you get the (AK74) pin and was it a DROP-IN fit?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 my762buzz... Where did you get the (AK74) pin and was it a DROP-IN fit?? See post #10 of this thread. From Kvar. Yes, it was drop in. It fit my saiga bolt perfectly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Was it the Romanian 178 for like $17.xx ?? http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?prod...=288&page=1 Just want to verify before I order.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Krom 36 Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 I'm also down, keep the info coming.... I wanna have parts in the event of SHTF or obongo/holder stop the flow of outside parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 Was it the Romanian 178 for like $17.xx ?? http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?prod...=288&page=1 Just want to verify before I order.. Yes, I think it was Romanian. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Tell you what guys, I have a friend who is an engineer and has a machine shop over at his farm. If I see him this Sunday, I'll ask him to take a look at the firing pin, extractor and bolt. If anyone can replicate these parts, he can. If he can't, he may know someone else who can. Tromix, I'd imagine he would want a minimum order of maybe 1000 per unit. A machined bolt is not going to be cheap. I'm not sure people are going to want to pay $100 for a spare machined bolt, if it's even possible at that price and then it has to be properly headspaced to your barrel or this can happen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 Damn, that looks nasty. Blew right off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JBski 6 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 If you needed a spare bolt, how would you check to see if it was head spaced properly? Is there a go-nogo gauge floating around to do this? How would you go about making a new bolt work if it's in the nogo range? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) If you needed a spare bolt, how would you check to see if it was head spaced properly? Is there a go-nogo gauge floating around to do this? How would you go about making a new bolt work if it's in the nogo range? Have a gunsmith work on it or buy some gauges and carefully follow the directions. http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/headspace/index.asp Excessive Headspace Excessive headspace allows movement of the case during firing. This can cause case stretching, case separation (ruptured case), and gas leakage. When the powder is ignited the base of the cartridge can move back while the sides of the case stick to the walls of the chamber. As a result the case can separate and rupture. If the bolt and receiver are not strong enough to contain and vent the blast you can at the very least damage the firearm or at worst you can injure or cause even greater harm to a bystander or yourself. Insufficient headspace prevents the closing of the bolt and possibly the complete chambering of the cartridge. If the bolt is forced this can cause the bullet to be compressed further into the neck of the cartridge's case. This will lead to over pressure conditions when the cartridge is fired and may cause very similar results as excessive headspace; the case may rupture sending very hot, high pressure gases through the rear of the receiver. "Go" gauge A "Go" gauge is the gauge that is used to measure minimum headspace. When you place the "Go" gauge in the rifle and close the bolt, the bolt should close and lock easily and completely. If the bolt does close successfully then this tells you that the firearm has at least sufficient headspace. It may still have excessive headspace, but that is determined by the "No-Go" gauge. If the bolt will not close on the "Go" gauge then you may not have sufficient headspace. This means you do not have enough headspace to chamber a cartridge properly and can damage the rifle if you force the bolt to close. "No-Go" gauge A "No-Go" gauge is the gauge that is used to measure the maximum allowed headspace. When you place the "No-Go" gauge in the rifle and close the bolt, the bolt should not close and lock. If the rifle does close on the "No-Go" gauge you may have a problem that needs to be tended to by a gunsmith and may be an unsafe weapon to fire. "Field" gauge If the rifle fails the "No-Go" gauge then you should measure using a "Field" gauge. A "Field" gauge is used to measure the largest possible safe headspace dimensions. When you place the "Field" gauge in the rifle and close the bolt, the bolt absolutely should not close and lock. If the rifle does close on the "Field" gauge you have a problem that needs to be tended to by a gunsmith and an unsafe weapon to fire. If the bolt closes on a "No-Go" gauge but does not close on the "Field" gauge this means you have a rifle that has excessive headspace but is safe to shoot. I personally don't want to take a chance. I know the headspacing website reference says loose headspace up to finally seeing a field gauge drop in is safe enough, but why take a chance. If it closes on a no go gauge then, I wouldn't want to shoot it untill the spacing is corrected. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=52459/s...space_Gauge_Kit 7.62x39 Headspace Gauge Kit Edited August 18, 2009 by my762buzz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nexus 0 Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) Is it at all possible to swap in a complete AKM bolt and carrier assembly? No. The exact parts would be from the ak103 and ak104. http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/ak103.shtml This is the factory gun. from Wiki The AK-103 is a modern, Russian-designed version of ... Thanks, I am aware of the AK-100 series and that the Saiga parts are based on that rifle. I appreciate your frank answer to my question, but I am still curious about what aspects of the Saiga preclude the use of an AKM bolt and carrier assembly. Obviously it is not a drop-in fit, but with some modifications and in a pinch, say 20 years down the road, if AT ALL possible, it would be good for us to know how to mate AKM parts to a Saiga. Are you all certain it is impossible? Is it the locking lugs? The ejector or another part of the rails? The third rivet? The trunnion? Do you have a link to a thread or anything where this topic was fully investigated or explained? I mean, since all of you are talking about fabbing these parts in the US, I guess you must all know that it's impossible to use plentiful AKM parts, since milling parts from scratch would have to be many times more difficult and expensive to attempt than modifying a Saiga to take an AKM bolt and carrier. I'm just trying to narrow down the options. Edited August 22, 2009 by nexus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rockina 60 Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Do what I and others have done and just buy another Saiga (same model) and put it back as your parts gun or replacement gun should the need arise, if the need never comes perhaps sell it for a profit in the future is also an option. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) Obviously it is not a drop-in fit, but with some modifications and in a pinch, say 20 years down the road, if AT ALL possible, it would be good for us to know how to mate AKM parts to a Saiga. Are you all certain it is impossible? Is it the locking lugs? The ejector or another part of the rails? The third rivet? The trunnion? Do you have a link to a thread or anything where this topic was fully investigated or explained? I mean, since all of you are talking about fabbing these parts in the US, I guess you must all know that it's impossible to use plentiful AKM parts, since milling parts from scratch would have to be many times more difficult and expensive to attempt than modifying a Saiga to take an AKM bolt and carrier. I'm just trying to narrow down the options. Here we have a Vepr (AK 103 style bolt), Saiga (AK 103 style bolt), and an SSR 85 (AK 47/AKM style bolt). All 3 bolts compared. As you can see, the AK47 pattern bolt has a shorter bolt head and a different extractor profile. The AK47 pattern bolt does not fit the saiga carrier. They do not interchange at all. The stems are very different. The AK47 pattern bolt stem is obviously larger. This is how far the AK 47 pattern carrier makes it into the saiga rear sight block and gas tube. The top of the carrier appears to be rubbing the sight block or gas tube and can not move forward. It does seem to clear the ejector but that is a moot point. Saiga bolt locks up nicely in the Saiga trunnion. The AK47 bolt has a big gap due to its short bolt head length. As you can see, the 47 carrier rides too high and the 47 bolt is too short. I don't think I need to go further its not going to work with an ak47/akm bolt at all. Unfortunately, I don't have a an ak74 bolt to compare the same dimensions. If a 7.62x39 cartridge head happens to miraculously fit the 74 bolt, then I might be more optimistic about a possible interchange. Someone on this board might kindly check this possibility with their 74 bolt and then maybe compare the 74 bolt to the saiga profile. This is not mine. It does look similar enough. Edited August 24, 2009 by my762buzz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nexus 0 Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Thanks, I guess that means I'm going to have to buy a couple of backup Saigas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Thanks, I guess that means I'm going to have to buy a couple of backup Saigas. Don't forget. Spare saiga bolts will still require headspace checking with a gauge. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rubicon923 0 Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Thanks, I guess that means I'm going to have to buy a couple of backup Saigas. This the same conclusion I have come to. I have lifetime supplies of spare parts for all of my main guns and feel a bit nervous about not having the same for my Saiga's as many of you do. However, apparently bolt part failures are almost unknown in AKs. Mark Graham (the "gunplumber") reported that in all the thousands of AKs that have passed through his hands over the years, he has seen exactly ONE extractor failure. The extractor is normally a weak point in semi-auto rifles. And in a lot of cases, these are rifles made from mixed, non-matching, old surplus parts. Saiga's are modern, matching part, factory guns. A second data point. Thousands of Saiga's are in use today and no one has spare bolt parts. I have never heard someone report that their Saiga is down because it broke an extractor or firing pin and replacements aren't available. IMO, accepting that Saiga's rarely break, a complete backup rifle is acceptable. A couple years back, I bought a used (but in good condition) 20" barrel Saiga for $225. I consider that gun my Saiga parts source. I also have multiple copies of new 16" barrel 7.62 x 39 Saiga's. I also think the Saiga ruggedness (if that's a word) is also an obstacle to finding a source of spare parts. There is obviously a small market for spare Saiga parts from people like us who just want to have spare parts, but how large can the market be for spare parts for a gun that rarely breaks? Now, if we had ARs... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Bolts or carriers never hardly, but firing pins occasionally break and springs wear out. Extra firing pins and springs like the disconnector, hammer, and extractor are a good idea. Maybe I am paranoid. I got a dozen extra of each just in case. You never know when spare parts might become impossible to get due to our government's useless laws. I suggested to KVAR a few weeks ago about having a sale on parts and they had a fantastic sale last weekend. Up to 70% off on many things. I got several of the kvar sale spare parts for my Saiga and Vepr rifles. If I don't need them years from now, I can probably sell them for 10 times what I paid for them when Michael Moore becomes President in 2016 and Congress bans the sale of all semiauto guns and replacement parts. Yeah, it could happen. Get your guns, parts, and ammo now while you still can. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
doon386 0 Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 (edited) Hi All, Over in the MIG/ETA forums, KVAR said that they might consider offering spares in the future ... http://www.migeta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5597 Edited September 3, 2009 by doon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Hi All, Over in the MIG/ETA forums, KVAR said that they might consider offering spares in the future ... http://www.migeta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5597 I seriously doubt KVAR will get new spare bolts from Russia. That would be a miracle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted September 5, 2009 Report Share Posted September 5, 2009 Worn out recoil spring = Frame battering Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 That's an SKS, isn't it? I fired a lot of AK, never saw it mark uo the rear trunnion like that! Ouch. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 And I thought I hurt from lastnights romp with 2 strippers... LMAO... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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