Tactical Application of the Saiga

[topmaul 42]

Lets discuss the tactical application of the Saiga Shotgun, while I like and respect Gabe I do disagree with some of his theories. Fore example I believe in the drum, and beleive the Saiga 12 coupled with a 20 rd drum are game changers, weapons like that silly choped down M-14 have 20 round .308 mags well that is nice how about a Saiga 12 and a 20 round drum? A much better close in weapon.

 

Say your opponent is using body armor, giving that person a blast of buckshot pretty good chance one of those pellets will find a way around the armor or it you nail the guy with a slug they you did something.

 

 

Just my humble opinion.

[Crusader 64]

Lets discuss the tactical application of the Saiga Shotgun, while I like and respect Gabe I do disagree with some of his theories. Fore example I believe in the drum, and beleive the Saiga 12 coupled with a 20 rd drum are game changers, weapons like that silly choped down M-14 have 20 round .308 mags well that is nice how about a Saiga 12 and a 20 round drum? A much better close in weapon.

 

Say your opponent is using body armor, giving that person a blast of buckshot pretty good chance one of those pellets will find a way around the armor or it you nail the guy with a slug they you did something.

 

 

Just my humble opinion.

Damn, you just talked me into getting a drum.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Crusader

[gaucho1 0]

I think Gabe is movement centered and approaches gun fighting as a contact sport.

 

If you are in support or semi-static,a twenty rnd. or even ten rnd. mag is an real problem on the receiving end.

 

I know you are far more skilled than most with your 12,and always pay attention to your posts.

 

In the very best sense,I would be interested in your experience in taking any of Gabe's courses,and better yet,a shotgun class.

 

Also interesting to most of here,reports on the competitions you are doing would be great.Seems like Saiga have become the winners choice.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2009 by gaucho1

[corbin 621]

I'm no Saiga expert by any stretch of the imagination........but I'd like to give my opinion in regards to drums and tactics, if I might....

 

I own two MD-20 drums so far. I love them. Eventually, I may get more. They are definitely a force multiplier when it comes to the close quarters shotgun. They aren't perfect though:

 

With added capacity comes bulk and weight. That makes it tougher to carry spare drums in the field. Not impossible, just harder than a couple 8 or 10 rounder mags for the same amount of rounds. For a quick mag change, I think it would be easier to load a stick mag personally. Because they're lighter, smaller and possibly cheaper to make, stick mags are less expensive too. For that reason, you're more likely to find tactical gear to carry them than you will drums, I would think.

 

The drums would be great for a defensive position where you're not having to carry extra drums for miles like you might in a survival situation. HD comes to mind. So does the shooting range. I suppose an urban type scenario could benefit from a 20 round shotgun, so long as you don't have to pack everything for miles to get there. I'm thinking Law Enforcement SRTs might do well to consider a drum, perhaps.

 

However, short of a belt fed device for the Saiga, you're not likely to find a higher capacity shotgun than a Saiga 12 with a drum. Within its effective range, there's little else that can match it for sheer fight stopping ability. That is, without going to a minigun or some other Class III device. A flamethrower maybe?

 

 

Just how I see things.

 

 

Corbin

[Paladin 37]

My opinion, based on tactical training classes and 3Gun, is that the drum is great for static defense. It could be anywhere, but the point is you need a nearby resupply point.

 

You cannot easily carry multiple drums. If you were in your BOL (or any defensive position) and had drums in place it would work.

 

If you are going to have to move and shoot. Reloading on the move, or were out of a defensive position I think they are far too bulky and slow to reload.

[Crusader 64]

My opinion, based on tactical training classes and 3Gun, is that the drum is great for static defense. It could be anywhere, but the point is you need a nearby resupply point.

 

You cannot easily carry multiple drums. If you were in your BOL (or any defensive position) and had drums in place it would work.

 

If you are going to have to move and shoot. Reloading on the move, or were out of a defensive position I think they are far too bulky and slow to reload.

Are you a 13B?

[Bayoupiper 738]

In actual usage in close quarters the drum is too bulky.

Especially on my SBS Saiga.

[tover26 18]

Thanks topmaul. I think this thread is going to the rate and volume of fire tactical advantage the S12 has. The more the merrier and the faster the better... is what the S12 is about IMO.

 

I think having an S12 in a squad or 2 person unit, where the other person has either a more accurate weapon or a more penetrating weapon would be a powerful combo. Whether a drum or a bunch of stick mags, lobbing slugs down range at distance or buck shot at closer range would allow the S12gunner to keep an adversary pinned down while the other person or squad moved into a flanking position.

 

Gabe's preference for the S12 was largely in part because it's the AK platform and as such, any firing issue can be resolved (if needed) by quickly changing out your current mag for a new mag. Reloading is the same... what do you do with the drum after it's empty? It's shape doesn't allow you to very quickly stash it. Gloves would further complicate it and it seems that if you had a dump pouch big enough you've still got a bulky drum bouncing on your leg.

 

So, tactically, go out with a 20 round drum and have more drums for reload or stick mags? What if we all get our wish and someone makes doubstack mags so you had a 16 round stick that was essentially the same length as a 10 or 12 round mag?

[Paladin 37]

My opinion, based on tactical training classes and 3Gun, is that the drum is great for static defense. It could be anywhere, but the point is you need a nearby resupply point.

 

You cannot easily carry multiple drums. If you were in your BOL (or any defensive position) and had drums in place it would work.

 

If you are going to have to move and shoot. Reloading on the move, or were out of a defensive position I think they are far too bulky and slow to reload.

Are you a 13B?

 

No, but the Paladin is an awesome artillery piece.

[Crusader 64]

My opinion, based on tactical training classes and 3Gun, is that the drum is great for static defense. It could be anywhere, but the point is you need a nearby resupply point.

 

You cannot easily carry multiple drums. If you were in your BOL (or any defensive position) and had drums in place it would work.

 

If you are going to have to move and shoot. Reloading on the move, or were out of a defensive position I think they are far too bulky and slow to reload.

Are you a 13B?

 

No, but the Paladin is an awesome artillery piece.

I spent some time as a Palidin M109A6 Platoon Leader a long time ago.

[Bayoupiper 738]

Thanks topmaul. I think this thread is going to the rate and volume of fire tactical advantage the S12 has. The more the merrier and the faster the better... is what the S12 is about IMO.

 

I think having an S12 in a squad or 2 person unit, where the other person has either a more accurate weapon or a more penetrating weapon would be a powerful combo. Whether a drum or a bunch of stick mags, lobbing slugs down range at distance or buck shot at closer range would allow the S12gunner to keep an adversary pinned down while the other person or squad moved into a flanking position.

 

Gabe's preference for the S12 was largely in part because it's the AK platform and as such, any firing issue can be resolved (if needed) by quickly changing out your current mag for a new mag. Reloading is the same... what do you do with the drum after it's empty? It's shape doesn't allow you to very quickly stash it. Gloves would further complicate it and it seems that if you had a dump pouch big enough you've still got a bulky drum bouncing on your leg.

 

So, tactically, go out with a 20 round drum and have more drums for reload or stick mags? What if we all get our wish and someone makes doubstack mags so you had a 16 round stick that was essentially the same length as a 10 or 12 round mag?

 

 

 

Slugs or not, a shotgun is not a distance weapon.

 

You want to keep heads down?

That's what SAWs are for.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But what do I know, I just carry an S-12 every day on the job......................

[gmorgan 2]

Slugs or not, a shotgun is not a distance weapon.

 

You want to keep heads down?

That's what SAWs are for.

 

Your absolutly fuckin A right Will ....now could ya set me up with one of them there SAWS ? hell I'll even be willin to spend $6,000.00 on one, let me know soon as ya find one willya ?

[beerasaurus 9]

Great topic, though I would love to see it have more direction.

 

Do we have a scenario in mind? Parameters of area of responsibility? Support? Give us a bit of a scenario.

 

I will say that I, in general, am a shotgun nut. As a rule, in civillian areas of engagement, armor is not an issue and, even when it is, it's inadequate to stop 00 ought (mostly due to coverage issues). I also am a upper thoracic shooter, not a center of mass shooter, so shot IS going to drift up into your neck and lower face, armor or no...

 

But...and this is a big but...I would never consider fielding any shotty as a primary weapon unless I'm in a very controlled environment or am in a squad. Too limited in application. WAY too limited.

 

If it's just a question of what shotty to take (for whatever reason), the Saiga's a no brainer...though, personally, I agree with sticking with stick mags. Yes, suppressing an area (or a doorway) with a drum is uber-sweet, but assuming there is pause and cover to reload in, mag changes don't bother me much. What does bother me is the increased single-point encumbrance of a drum (aside from the center of your back, there is NO good place to keep those things and they are adding a lot of tough-to-distribute weight), the difficulty in manipulating them (they don't fit hands well), and the difficulty in staying "topped off" in a fight (changing partially used mags for unused/less used mags).

 

Regardless, if a Saiga is my primary, I'm putting it on an easy-transition sling and backing it up with a long bbl pistol.

[Bayoupiper 738]

Your absolutly fuckin A right Will ....now could ya set me up with one of them there SAWS ? hell I'll even be willin to spend $6,000.00 on one, let me know soon as ya find one willya ?

 

 

 

No, but you could set yourself up with an AK that would do the job..............................

[BpS12 512]

Ok, here's my take....

 

On my SHF(Shit Hits Fan) Vest, lower front left, I have a drop pouch that will hold four 5rd. mags and two 10rd. .45 mags, plus my cleaning kit. I keep slugs in these 4 mags for distance shots as I should have more time/cover to reload in a hostile situation. On the lower front right, I have a Six mag pouch for 8-10rdrs of 00Buck for CQB. I carry a Taurus PT-145 with light and laser along with pocket tools, etc in a gadget pouch above the four 5rdrs. for backup/CQB and a .357 with 5.5in. barrel on my right hip for quick shots and handheld distance. I should also mention the .380 strapped to my inner left calf, lol. My Bullpupped S12 has an 5rd. shell holder on the right side and my vest has a 10rd. shotshell pouch over the six mag pouch on the upper right. Both of which hold extra shot/slugs or specialty rds. Door Breeachers, Flashbangs, etc., on back I have a pack and add-on bag for exra gear , etc. and an EMT bag. A Gas mask in pouch on my left hip(hold over from my Army days). And I have various other puches as needed.

 

Yes I'm one of those damned "Survivalist" that believe our society will eventually crumble. Hel, we all have to have something to look forward to, lol.

 

I'd love to have a 20/30rd. drum but imho, it would only be good for a starter mag and then go all stick after that. Also a lanyard on it would be more beneficial than a BIG drop pouch. Esp. something like those key reels that would pull it back out of the way once dropped. For a strickly defensive position several of them would be great, but if you're on the move, more than one(in the gun) would be too much bulk to carry for so little advantage as skipping one reload.

 

Well, thats my 2 bits. Good luck.

[topmaul 42]

The major Shotgun disadvantage of a conventional shotgun is very limited magazine capacity. Magazine cap is a function of barrel length. The Saiga is not handicap. some said the weapon with a drum is too bulky well it is a bit bulky but with chopped down barrel and maybe a folder it provides a lot of fire power in a fairly small package. I see a tactical advantage in offensive operations for the Saiga/drum perhaps several Tromix style SBS in a squad with drums of course.

[Paladin 37]

Here's my plan for a serious fighting shotgun.

 

Take one S12, cut the barrel down to 12" so you don't have to move the gas block. Maybe open the ports a tad OR add the adjustable gas plug and adjust for more gas.

 

Thread the barrel and add a Polychoke, turn the setting to xtra full and you get back the range you lost buy cutting the barrel down. The Polychoke is 2.25" + 12" of barrel for a total of 14.25". Short enough to be handy, but no fireball in the face interfering with follow up shots or acquiring new targets.

 

Add a Magwell, LRBHO and bolt release. Cut the AGP mags down to 8rds. Add quality folding/adjustable stock. Put a Burris Fast Fire or similar micro red dot on a Ultimak rail along with some HK sights or flip BUIS. Of course, top off with a quality tac light like a Surefire or Fenix.

 

When done you have a weapon that is devastating out to 40+yds with a high rate of fire, quick mag changes, 200% increase of a hit on a moving target over a single projectile weapon. Yet it is compact and with folded/collapsed stock fits in a tennis racket case.

 

Done.

[JJL0325 0]

Maybe this should be a whole different post, but who here uses their Saiga 12 for a primary? What would you pack for a SHTF scenario?

[tover26 18]

S12 for SHTF scenario and for that up close and personal touch within 50 yards. AK for longer than that. Not much line of sight here where I am.

[BpS12 512]

Right now, I do, but that is mostly due to that fact that I can't justify haveing a .308 in a state where I can't hunt with it. I'm also really getting into the S12 though and have found slugs that are designed to reach 200yrds. I figure if they built for 200, I may be able to push out to 250-300yrds. This would put me on par with a stock M4 I believe and useful if needed. But since most lines of sight in my area are less than 200yrds, it's not much of a problem. Also the cornicopia of ammo for the S12 is astounding, can't wait to get ahold of some 12ga. HE and Frag grenades, lol.

 

Eventually, I would like to cut my S12 barrel to just in front of the Bullpup handguard(bout 13-14") and use it as a PDW with a Bullpuped .308 w/22" barrel as primary. Course, I may also need to eat a boat load more protein just to carry everything, lol.

 

Lifa Rettur og Deyja Vel,

Mikel

[tover26 18]

I'd love to hear more about the competitions as well.

[stiletto raggio 20]

Mikel,

 

I think you will have some trouble hitting a target at 300 yards with any shotgun, any round. The best performers are sabot slugs out of rifled barrels, but for the most part, they can only reliably hit big game out to 150 yards max. The S-12 isn't available with a rifled barrel (and if it was, you'd lose a lot of effectiveness with buckshot due to extreme pattern irregularity) and rifled chokes aren't really the equal of a rifled barrel. The US Army established 300 meters as the maximum range on our standard qual range because most people have trouble even seeing targets that far out unless they are painted a bright color. Figure in the rainbow trajectory of even the best shorgun slugs and 300 yards seems to be a bridge too far.

 

My ideal combat shotgun would be an s-12 with a 12-13 inch barrel, basically in the configuration Paladin described except that I see no use for an adjustable choke. A flash-hider/standoff might be nice, but nothing too long. Until I get settled in somewhere for more than a year or so, I will stay away from NFA guns.

 

As for drum versus stick, I think a drum is a good magazine to start off with. The only problem I have is that the MD arms drum doesn't accept the vast majority of buckshot that I own. I am a big fan of the Sellier and Bellot and Nobel roll-crimped 00 buck and the B&P "5/0" shot (small buck), but neither fits the MD drum. When Chaos comes out with the compact 10 rounder that holds 3" shells, I think my prayers will be answered. In the mean time, I am looking for some good #4 buck for my drum at a decent price; right now, it gets birdshot almost exclusively.

 

I agree with the strategy of starting off on a drum and using sticks of various sizes as reloads. Current drums are just too bulky to carry more than one spare, and then it really needs to be in a camera bag or something similar. Even then, they are awkward to reload with quickly. Right now, I am flush with AGP and Pro-Mag 10-rounders and factory and Taiwan fives. I am poking around for a few more SGM 12/13s for my in-the-works competition gun, but after that we shall see. I am hoping the Chaos drum is up and ready before the end of the year. Come on, Cam!

 

Just to add one point: I think a shotgun is a fine primary for any civilian. Unless you live way, way out in the boonies and are worried about taking sniper fire (in which case seeking cover is more important than returning fire) a shotgun will take care of anything you need for self-defense. Heck, a far less sophisticated shotgun will cover you for nearly any circumstance, and a pistol will--with good training--perform almost as well, if not better in some situations. Carbines have their place, but anyone who thinks clearing a house with a .308 (or most any high-powered rifle) is a good idea for a civilian needs their head checked. Shooting pistols at an indoor range is loud; shooting a rifle inside a house is much, much louder, not to mention more dangerous for everyone in the area. A shotgun, while by no means quiet, is not nearly as tough on the head and ears as the high-impulse sound of a rifle shot.

Edited July 31, 2009 by stiletto raggio

[Bayoupiper 738]

Wise post Stil!

[BpS12 512]

Thanks for the range info. I've been mostly back woods "plinking" with mine and haven't been to the range yet. The longest range I can find in my area is only 300yrds anyway, lol. I've got a NcStar 2-7x32 scope mounted on mine with BUIS. The 2x works great for outdoor close range. Looking forward to trying it for longer. If I can get 200yrds out of these slugs I'd be a happy camper but, 100 may be the better bet.

 

I do agree that the shotgun is likely the good Civilian primary weapon. Easy to maintain and multi-use. I used to live in Arizona where a .308 would have had a good deal of use, but not here in Ohio, lol.

 

LRoDV,

Mikel