So I want to build a 12c clone

[quest84 22]

Is it just the C next to the 12? Obviously the Importer markings on the right rear would need to be covered... Am I missing anything else? Pics would be very helpful thanks!

[Centerfire 1]

Quest,

 

I'd email you some pics but I see your email address is set to private. If you can tell me how to post pics here, I'd be happy to help out.

 

-Centerfire

[quest84 22]

PM sent Centerfire. I can post them for you here in case anyone else is interested.

[Bvamp 604]

I wouldnt go too nuts with markings. The serial number is going to be a dead giveaway that its a fake. There is also the matter of changing the manufacture date under the factory logo which coincides with the serial number.

 

I am unsure if this falls under "defacement of a firearm" if you were to remove the importer marking without being a manufacturer yourself, changing the model number would fall under that as well, if it even applies in this case. I was under the impression that altering any markings that are taken down in an FFL's trasfer book, are markings that cannot be altered, except by a registered manufacturer of firearms.

 

You should do some checking, and ask someone that can cite laws and knows them well for the "beef" on this, if you ask me.

 

Besides, unless you match a serial # that exists already that was registered as expemt at the docks by the BATF (which is kinda sorta highly illegal), you are still going to have 922r apply to your gun.

 

better to have the headache of being safe, than being sorry.

 

just my .02

[Centerfire 1]

Quest84,

 

I'll take a couple of pics of my receiver and any other shots you need tonight and email them to you but I think it would prudent to listen to Bvamp's advice.

 

-Centerfire

 

edited because I can't type

Edited September 29, 2009 by Centerfire

[Centerfire 1]

Quest84,

 

Email sent.

[quest84 22]

So can anybody confirm Bvamp's statement about the import markings?

Thank you centerfire here are the photos. Very nice weapon by the way.

[HarvKY 72]

Last info I saw on this subject was that you cant touch the weapons primary serial # (ie, on the reciever)

but that anything and everything else can be wiped off without problem

 

 

Probably check with Tony R

 

HarvKY

[Ron K. 0]

looks exactly like the one i sold about three or four years ago. L.E. model shorter barrel folder.it was supposed to go to L.E. or military buyer only. the guy was class three dealer so it was okay for him to buy it. I can't say i miss it. since i have a "Tony" 12 now. and really like it way more.good luck with the project. I know the dealer in texas still has it in inventory.probably in still new { mint cond}

 

they are fun gun's. Regards Ron K.

[Bvamp 604]

Last info I saw on this subject was that you cant touch the weapons primary serial # (ie, on the reciever)

but that anything and everything else can be wiped off without problem

 

 

Probably check with Tony R

 

HarvKY

 

Ms Vicki doesnt come here, but maybe Ill find some time to discuss the matter with her, seeing how she is the book keeper for 35 years with the 99.99% BATF compliance rating.....I wanna know the skinny on this for shit sure, as well.

[bigj480 203]

I know the dealer in texas still has it in inventory.probably in still new { mint cond}

 

I assume you are talking about the 12c, if so, could you PM me the dealers info? I wouldn't mind picking one up.

[Ron K. 0]

I sent you the info. remember he chased me to sell this one to him.along with a few other rare gun's.{ that you normally don't see.}so not sure if he would sell it.ask him about my long gone ak collection.including all the Dragunovs...had alot of fun doing it for decade's.another one may be harder to turn up then a "Drag folding para model"

i hunted "Rare" stuff my whole life.

 

now its fun to have others on the search.regards Ron K.

[quest84 22]

I sent you the info. remember he chased me to sell this one to him.along with a few other rare gun's.{ that you normally don't see.}so not sure if he would sell it.ask him about my long gone ak collection.including all the Dragunovs...had alot of fun doing it for decade's.another one may be harder to turn up then a "Drag folding para model"

i hunted "Rare" stuff my whole life.

 

now its fun to have others on the search.regards Ron K.

Called the guy this morning, acted like he didn't know what I was talking about.

[Centerfire 1]

Called the guy this morning, acted like he didn't know what I was talking about.

 

Quest84,

 

I think your idea of building an S-12 is all around smarter. For the price that you'd have to pay today for a genuine 12C you could have a highly customized S-12 built just about any way you want.

 

-Centerfire

[Guer0 3]

I wanted to remove the import marking off of my 12-C (Hesse) and asked a SOT if it was legal. He wasnt positive so checked with his contact at BATF and was told no the import markings cannot be removed. As with anything with BATF it may depend on who you speak to. That being said I would not risk doing it and get my ass in trouble over an import mark.

[Bvamp 604]

whatever is recorded in an FFL holders book for transfers, are the markings that they use to identify the firearm. make model serial

 

I know that any time Tom Cole has scrubbed markings and such, that it goes into his records as a registered change to that weapon.

[Ron K. 0]

I sent you the info. remember he chased me to sell this one to him.along with a few other rare gun's.{ that you normally don't see.}so not sure if he would sell it.ask him about my long gone ak collection.including all the Dragunovs...had alot of fun doing it for decade's.another one may be harder to turn up then a "Drag folding para model"

i hunted "Rare" stuff my whole life.

 

now its fun to have others on the search.regards Ron K.

Called the guy this morning, acted like he didn't know what I was talking about.

 

 

Well maybe Ted does not want people bothering him.or wanting to sell things now.thats the best way to blow people off.

 

but thats okay. its his business in who he deals' with. and I never said he was in the market to sell anything. you asked me who had it.> and that is the info you wanted< he will be back in town for sar. show in Dec.and I will ask him abou it.

i have no reason to make crap up. I'VE been a ffl/sot for over 37 year's.and i sure as heck know what i do. but won't answer for anybody else what they won't or will do.

 

sorry it turned out a dead end for you. maybe you should have asked him if he built ak's.then you would have gotten a conversation started/ best regards Ron K.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Does that 12c in the pics have an easily removable gas tube, (like the 12s and all Kalashnikov type rifles)? If not, fuck it.. you could buy and have at least 2 standard IZ-109's custom modded into far superior weapons for what a stock 12c would cost you.

 

The only thing that interests me in those pics is the magazine. Surefire 8's are nice an all.. but I'd really love a couple Izhmash 8-rounders.

 

As for the markings.. maybe I'm not a collector and don't have that somewhat "odd" mindset when it comes to every little tiny insignificant detail.. but I personally wouldn't give a fuck. Buy a IZ-109 and scribe that little "C" in next to the Russian "Saiga-12" on the left hand side of the receiver, since that seems to be the only difference in receiver markings. Then have a gunsmith duplicate the Russian folding stock set-up. It can be done, and for less than what an "authentic" 12c would cost ya.

Edited October 1, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[lokmeup 30]

Buy a IZ-109 and scribe that little "C" in next to the Russian "Saiga-12" on the left hand side of the receiver, since that seems to be the only difference in receiver markings. Then have a gunsmith duplicate the Russian folding stock set-up. It can be done, and for less than what an "authentic" 12c would cost ya.

 

+1

[Guer0 3]

Does that 12c in the pics have an easily removable gas tube, (like the 12s and all Kalashnikov type rifles)? If not, fuck it.. you could buy and have at least 2 standard IZ-109's custom modded into far superior weapons for what a stock 12c would cost you.

 

The only thing that interests me in those pics is the magazine. Surefire 8's are nice an all.. but I'd really love a couple Izhmash 8-rounders.

 

As for the markings.. maybe I'm not a collector and don't have that somewhat "odd" mindset when it comes to every little tiny insignificant detail.. but I personally wouldn't give a fuck. Buy a IZ-109 and scribe that little "C" in next to the Russian "Saiga-12" on the left hand side of the receiver, since that seems to be the only difference in receiver markings. Then have a gunsmith duplicate the Russian folding stock set-up. It can be done, and for less than what an "authentic" 12c would cost ya.

 

No the gas tube is not like on a 12S.

As for "Then have a gunsmith duplicate the Russian folding stock set-up. It can be done, and for less than what an "authentic" 12c would cost ya." You better call around to see what they will charge you to do this. I got my 12C for 1500 which was on the high end, good luck getting 1 made for cheaper then that or even that price.(I know Tony has said he has done 1 and will not do another they are a pain in the butt to do much more so then a regular conversion) There is also the fact that there were about 200 12C imported making an actual 12C a rare bird. I wouldnt trade my 12C for 3 109's, but to each thier own thats what makes the world go round.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Guero

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Does that 12c in the pics have an easily removable gas tube, (like the 12s and all Kalashnikov type rifles)? If not, fuck it.. you could buy and have at least 2 standard IZ-109's custom modded into far superior weapons for what a stock 12c would cost you.

 

The only thing that interests me in those pics is the magazine. Surefire 8's are nice an all.. but I'd really love a couple Izhmash 8-rounders.

 

As for the markings.. maybe I'm not a collector and don't have that somewhat "odd" mindset when it comes to every little tiny insignificant detail.. but I personally wouldn't give a fuck. Buy a IZ-109 and scribe that little "C" in next to the Russian "Saiga-12" on the left hand side of the receiver, since that seems to be the only difference in receiver markings. Then have a gunsmith duplicate the Russian folding stock set-up. It can be done, and for less than what an "authentic" 12c would cost ya.

 

No the gas tube is not like on a 12S.

As for "Then have a gunsmith duplicate the Russian folding stock set-up. It can be done, and for less than what an "authentic" 12c would cost ya." You better call around to see what they will charge you to do this. I got my 12C for 1500 which was on the high end, good luck getting 1 made for cheaper then that or even that price.(I know Tony has said he has done 1 and will not do another they are a pain in the butt to do much more so then a regular conversion)...

 

 

Perhaps. Truth be told I wouldn't pay $1500 or even close to it for a 12c, cause I don't like the Russian folding mech/stock. I think alternate folder setups are superior, even though they may not be "authentic", (Russian). If it doesn't have a removable gas tube, I don't consider it superior to any well-restored IZ-109, cause it has no functional advantage, unlike the 12s.

 

Since they're rare, congrats on having one.

 

As you said, to each his own.

 

edit: Will the 12c fire with the stock folded, (unlike some similar S-12's I seem to remember our Russian members talking about)?

Edited October 1, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[Guer0 3]

Yes the 12C will fire with stock closed. The folders in Russia have another mechanism that acts as a safety due to the laws over there from what I understand.

[Centerfire 1]

There is also the fact that there were about 200 12C imported making an actual 12C a rare bird.

 

Guero,

 

Just wondering where you got these stats. I knew the 12C's were rare but I didn't think they were quite that unusual.

 

.(I know Tony has said he has done 1 and will not do another they are a pain in the butt to do much more so then a regular conversion)

 

Any idea why the difficulty in converting to the 12C?

 

-Centerfire

[Guer0 3]

There is also the fact that there were about 200 12C imported making an actual 12C a rare bird.

 

Guero,

 

Just wondering where you got these stats. I knew the 12C's were rare but I didn't think they were quite that unusual.

 

.(I know Tony has said he has done 1 and will not do another they are a pain in the butt to do much more so then a regular conversion)

 

Any idea why the difficulty in converting to the 12C?

 

-Centerfire

 

I read the 200 imported somewhere dont recall where. As to why the difficulty not sure just saw Tony post that he has done 1 and wouldnt again. I would speculate all the receiver mods needed over a regular conversion. Thar would equate to more time and effort so you would have to charge more and people dont want to pay it. If you search the forums you may be able to find where he said he wouldnt do another. I have also seen Cadiz state they wouldnt do any one off work right now either.

[Bvamp 604]

we did a factory folder for Norty, for one of his rifles. You can ask him how much we charged him for that....it was pricey and he supplied all the parts, even.

 

I had it in my head the 12C number was 120, but you may right, it might be 200. Either number that it is, it aint many.

[HarvKY 72]

There is also the fact that there were about 200 12C imported making an actual 12C a rare bird.

 

Guero,

 

Just wondering where you got these stats. I knew the 12C's were rare but I didn't think they were quite that unusual.

 

.(I know Tony has said he has done 1 and will not do another they are a pain in the butt to do much more so then a regular conversion)

 

Any idea why the difficulty in converting to the 12C?

 

-Centerfire

 

 

 

As I recall...

Tonys comments about that conversion are primarily based on having to take the time to cut and modifying a regular Saiga receiver for the trunnion/folding hinge that is used on all of the solid poly folding stocks (both Russian and USA made) as well as all the triangle folding stocks (krink & kyber models most famously). Only difference found in these is a very few of what you see may have a russian 5.5mm pin hinge rather than the most commonly found 4.5mm hinge pin. This modification also requires cutting the side of the reciever for a small latch hook that holds the folding stock tight when in a closed position

 

Its simply a matter of time versus cost ratio for a craftsman like Tony & others. They can turn out a quite a few more conversions just cutting off the rear tang & welding on a plate for the Ace folding mechansim than they can doing all that other work on each weapon. Their pricing starts with their talent then rises with the # of hours required to fulfill your requests.

 

Its the same amount of work if someone wants that type folding stock installed on their Saiga rifle. Now if you're building an AK and use a reciever (like Nodak) with everything precut for that folding stock setup, then its not going to take all the extra time to make the modifications.

 

The upper mods are a seperate beast - best addressed with Dinzags parts.

 

As some have noted, you can either spend the crazy amount of money on an actual 12C (if anyone will sell it) or on trying to closely duplicate one, or you can just get an S12 and create a real nice weapon that functions just as well, or better!, by most anyones standards.

 

If someone is truely intent on owning specific limited model guns they usually just pay for what they want

 

Cheers,

HarvKY

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

^ Well said, (and a +1). I don't have the money, (or really the interest), to be a "collector" and buy extremely rare variants of Russian guns or pay what it costs to have one made to resemble them. If the Russian folding stock setup had any real advantages.. that might change things. From where I'm sitting, it doesn't. I prefer a galil-style folding mech. I prioritize function over form.

 

All that said I know that there are guys out there who really do care to have every little stinking detail be "authentic" and have the patience and money required to achieve that. That's cool.

[Guer0 3]

All that said I know that there are guys out there who really do care to have every little stinking detail be "authentic" and have the patience and money required to achieve that. That's cool.

 

I unfortunately am not 1 to have it authentic. I have bastardized mine and had the barrel cut down to 18.5 total length with a perm attached Tromiz AK74 flash hider and dinzag front sight with a Dinzag press up gas block and lower handguard retainer. A true collector would have a fit that I did that especially with the scaricity of them. But it was cheaper for me to get an actual 12C and change it to what I wanted then to build 1 up. Not to mention the fact that RAA import marks them where the folding mechanism goes so you would need to find 1 imported other then RAA to do it and not risk getting in trouble with a BATF agent with a wild hair up the ass.

[HarvKY 72]

There is a real nice Fuller built 12C clone for sale on the Warrior Talk For Sale section

 

Its only $3500

 

HarvKY

[quest84 22]

Found a real one, only $3400

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1128760