YARP 300 Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Hello all I'm trying to finish my bug out bag and need a little assistance. I live in the state of Michigan, we arn't allowed to apply for short barreled shotgun in this state (which sucks). So obviously this puts me in a little bit of a spot when trying to conceal a frickin T-rex in my bug out bag. So heres the deal, in Michigan anything under 30 inches MUST be registered as a pistol when you buy it. Now here's the tricky part a shotgun must have an 18 inch barrel but be under 30 inches in order to register it as a pistol so that it can "carried" without any issues from johnny law in a concealed manner. My main question is, in order for me to get this shotgun in and registered as a pistol so that I'm legit I need the work of having the stock removed and the barrel cut to 18.01" BEFORE I take ownership and register it in the state of Michigan, so I can work my magic on this end. Does anyone no anyone that would be willing to do this work for a small fee? You can keep the stock and I don't need any mags. Thanks a ton, YARP Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 18.01 inches is too short. It doesn't matter how you measure it, its how the investigating LEO measures it. I've heard there can be some "creativity" in their measurements if it is extremely close. I'd leave 1/8 inch at the very least. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YARP 300 Posted September 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 fair enough I'll leave as much of the barrel as I can, as long as the overall measurement is under 30"/over 26". I sent my Saiga away for work so I don't have the dimensions of the reciever which will tell me how much barrel I can leave on there. I know around here the LE officers close the bolt and stick a dowel rod down the barrel and they better not be able to see that little line poking out the top or its off to f me in the a$$ prison. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 That is the correct way to measure bbl length...from the closed bolt face to the muzzle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Hi and welcome to the forum! I'm not sure where in MI you are, but there's a fair amount of us in the greater Flint area. Dinzag, Juggernaut & DragonWolf are just a few. Me too. Yeah, MI's pistol law is kinda stupid, but in this case, it should work to our benefit. That is, until someone actually has to defend themselves with a registered shotgun pistol. I suspect the State will put in a clause about no long guns or something. Anyway..... The good news is, a standard stock Saiga with the stock removed and the tang cut off for a receiver adapter is under 30" OAL. I don't recall if it's 27.5 or 28.5, but it's somewhere in there. That's with the stock 19" barrel. So you wouldn't HAVE to cut the barrel to get it registered as a handgun. You can do that later though, if you want. While typing this, I called the local Police and asked about "converting" a longun you already own into something less than 30" OAL. They said that's fine. You'd just be put down as the buyer AND seller on the pistol permit. The person I talked to said they did that with an adjustable stocked O/U skeet shotgun their niece used because the length of pull had to be so short for her (she was like 10 or something). When the stock was shortened, the OAL was just under 30". So you don't have to get it registered as a pistol when you first get it. Get a permit to purchase when you're ready to convert it to under 30". You can do whatever (legal) conversions you want (barrel over 18" and OAL over 26", no full auto). The permit is good for 10 days and costs whatever they charge to get it notarized. Mine was $4.00 I think. I have to agree with Dogman on the barrel length thing. I prefer 1/4" to 1/2" over, just to be damn sure. Dinzag has a barrel facing tool that helps square up the end of the barrel after you cut it. He's near Clio. Again, welcome to the forum. Corbin P.S. I removed the folding mechanism on my Saiga for the time being, as I'm trying to decide if I want it registered as a handgun or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
presto_z 125 Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Would it then become a smooth bore pistol?? If so then Michigan Officials would be the least of your worries... Better watch out for the Alphabet Police Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Would it then become a smooth bore pistol?? If so then Michigan Officials would be the least of your worries... Better watch out for the Alphabet Police The "alphabet police" don't enforce state laws. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
presto_z 125 Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 A smooth bore pistol is considered an AOW (any other weapon) according to NFA.. And that is enforced by the Alphabet police Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 A smooth bore pistol is considered an AOW (any other weapon) according to NFA.. And that is enforced by the Alphabet police You are not understanding the situation properly. It is a state law that says any long gun under 30" must be registered as a pistol NOT A FEDERAL LAW If the State of Michigan passes a law that says Presidents Day is in October, I bet the post office will still close in February for it.. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YARP 300 Posted September 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Corbin, you are awesome! Thanks for the info. When I called the Washtenaw County office the lady was so confused by the wording (funny considering the state wrote it) that she told me to hire a lawyer. We'll all have to get together sometime and shoot. I'm only about 45 minutes from Flint. presto_z thanks for your concern. No it wouldn't be considered a smooth bore pistol by the feds considering there law would not regard it as such. They would still consider it a normal shotgun, the barrel is still over 18" and the overall length would still be over 26". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
presto_z 125 Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 So your saying in Michigan it is registered as a pistol (with a smooth bore), but it is not really a pistol? They just register them as something they are not? i just dont see how you can register a shotgun as a pistol, while it still has a smooth bore and not be in possession of a smooth bore pistol.. Thank God Florida doesn't have retarded gun laws like Michigan So it is a pistol in Michigan (with a smooth bore), but it is still considered a normal shotgun according to the BATF since it has a barrel over 18"? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 So your saying in Michigan it is registered as a pistol (with a smooth bore), but it is not really a pistol? They just register them as something they are not? i just dont see how you can register a shotgun as a pistol, while it still has a smooth bore and not be in possession of a smooth bore pistol.. Thank God Florida doesn't have retarded gun laws like Michigan So it is a pistol in Michigan (with a smooth bore), but it is still considered a normal shotgun according to the BATF since it has a barrel over 18"? By Michigan law, anything under 30" is considered a "legal pistol". Under federal law, a rifle is legal with a 16" barrel and a total overall length of 26" Under federal law, a shotgun is legal with an 18" barrel and a total overall length of 26" The feds don't give a S*** what Michigan does, so long as their laws don't violate federal laws. IOW, what is a "pistol" to the State of Michigan is a perfectly legal rifle or shotgun to the feds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YARP 300 Posted September 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 So your saying in Michigan it is registered as a pistol (with a smooth bore), but it is not really a pistol? They just register them as something they are not? i just dont see how you can register a shotgun as a pistol, while it still has a smooth bore and not be in possession of a smooth bore pistol.. Thank God Florida doesn't have retarded gun laws like Michigan So it is a pistol in Michigan (with a smooth bore), but it is still considered a normal shotgun according to the BATF since it has a barrel over 18"? dear presto_z, Michigan is unlike any other state you have ever been to, we have it all, including four seasons. people gasp at our unemployment rate yet we've been here since the 1930s when Detroit started to use machines instead of people. We are a survival of the fittest/smartest state, I would just like to let you know that we directly deport all our waste to Florida so that they won't freeze to death in the winter. Jokes I'm full of'em, On a more serious note, in your state YOU CAN NOT CARRY A LOADED AND CONCEALED SHOTGUN/RIFLE, In Michigan if it's under 30" it's recognized as a pistol so we can. How bout them sour apples for your pie.... Oh no wait those are grown in Michigan to I'll send some with the next homeless guy leaving Detroit. Thanks, YARP Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 (edited) I remember back when I bought a Striker 12 (African made Streetsweeper basically). I had to get it registered as a pistol. I posed the same question to the local office of the ATF: "Wouldn't MI's law force this shotgun into being a smoothbore pistol?". I also asked, "If it's a 'pistol', can I shorten the barrel to 8 inches?". Also "But pistols can't have stocks." They said it was a State ordinance and as long as the firearm didn't match the criteria of an NFA weapon, they couldn't care less. I was told that basically if you had two identical weapons (let's say a folding stock Saiga with pistol grip and an 18" barrel), one of them in MI and the other in Texas (for example)....... That Texas might say "that's a shotgun. No need to register it or anything". MI says "Oh, that's under 30 inches. We call it a pistol here. You have to register it." Someplace with more restrictive gun laws might say "Oh my God! It's an assault weapon! That's illegal!" I understand that certain colors of Duracoat are illegal in New York City. Presto_Z, I think we can all agree that it's a stupid law. I don't think any of us are defending it. It's a silly law made by folks at the capitol building. I suspect it was originally intended to keep track of 'concealable" long guns. Maybe they were thinking it would help, except (like most gun laws) criminals don't follow them. LOL I can understand your questioning of the "smoothbore pistol" thing though. I did the same thing. I agree that it looks like it would force the gun into an NFA category, but it doesn't. YARP, yeah we definitely need to get together and go shooting. The pit in Lapeer is awesome. It's free too. Corbin Edited September 29, 2009 by Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Centerfire 1 Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 While typing this, I called the local Police and asked about "converting" a longun you already own into something less than 30" OAL. They said that's fine. You'd just be put down as the buyer AND seller on the pistol permit. Did that to my Saiga with no problems. My barrel is 18.375" and the length with the stock folded is 27.625" if I recall. Get a permit to purchase when you're ready to convert it to under 30". You can do whatever (legal) conversions you want (barrel over 18" and OAL over 26", no full auto). The permit is good for 10 days and costs whatever they charge to get it notarized. Mine was $4.00 I think. They make you pay to have the permit notarized?! Damn, the whole registration scheme in this state is bad enough but that sucks even harder! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 They make you pay to have the permit notarized?! Damn, the whole registration scheme in this state is bad enough but that sucks even harder! Yeah, anything to make money. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Centerfire 1 Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Yeah, anything to make money. How about legalizing SBS and SBR's and charging a tax on top of what the Fed's already do? Do you suppose Jenny would go for that? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
presto_z 125 Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Thanks Naloith, Yarp and Corbin for the clarification.. That law is confusing from an outsiders view, i was just trying to watch out for the OP.. I can now make sense of the law even though the law doesn't make much sense lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 How about legalizing SBS and SBR's and charging a tax on top of what the Fed's already do? Do you suppose Jenny would go for that? I wish they would! No suppressors either right now, I don't think. Just full auto (which are usually terribly expensive for a transferable) and AOW (like a vertical grip on a pistol). Sigh Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YARP 300 Posted September 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Corbin Where is this "pit" you speak of? I'm getting an itch to try out some of my new toys (lord knows after purchasing them I had to spend the next two months reloading), I havn't shot some of my rifles past 200 meters and would love to. Whats the longest range at the "pit"? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) Of course, I can't find the map to it, now that I need it. I can remember well enough to tell you though..... I know some of the folks on here have posted it before. Maybe they can post it again. It's North of Lapeer a little: Basically, take I-69 to Lapeer exit (M-24) and head North. Go through town and turn right onto Daley Rd. I think it's two roads to get to Roods Lake Rd, where you turn left. That's the road it's on, but about 2 miles North. You have to pass one road that I think only goes to the right. You'll pass a drag strip on your left too. The last road you will pass is Vernor (or Verner?). After that, look for the shooting range on your right about 1/2 mile down. I haven't been there since it got a face lift, but I've seen pics and it looks really nice. Definitely let me know when you want to go. I'm up to meeting you there, if you like. I know they're planning on a shoot in November, but I wouldn't mind getting there while it's still warm. LOL PM me if you want to go sometime. Corbin *edit* I forgot to answer your question.....unless they've changed it, the longest range is 100 yards. They have a pistol range now too I understand. Edited September 30, 2009 by Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rd99fxdl 17 Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Actually it looks to be closer to 150-200 yds at the deep end.Yes,they did add a hill at about 25 yards too for pistol now. hope this works,if so heres a map. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Thanks Naloith, Yarp and Corbin for the clarification.. That law is confusing from an outsiders view, i was just trying to watch out for the OP.. I can now make sense of the law even though the law doesn't make much sense lol well, our company will not ship a long arm without a stock attached, regardless of what any state will require afterwards to change the registration of the firearm. I am all for the OP making the stupid law work for them, though. Give the office a call, we will get you sorted out, and get you what you want, but you will have to knock the stock off when you get it, most likely. No big deal really. Its just a part. now, presto, are you gonna make the florida shoot in november, or what? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
presto_z 125 Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Thanks Naloith, Yarp and Corbin for the clarification.. That law is confusing from an outsiders view, i was just trying to watch out for the OP.. I can now make sense of the law even though the law doesn't make much sense lol well, our company will not ship a long arm without a stock attached, regardless of what any state will require afterwards to change the registration of the firearm. I am all for the OP making the stupid law work for them, though. Give the office a call, we will get you sorted out, and get you what you want, but you will have to knock the stock off when you get it, most likely. No big deal really. Its just a part. now, presto, are you gonna make the florida shoot in november, or what? more info please.. in a PM if you could, i dont want to hijack this thread thanks steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Centerfire 1 Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 well, our company will not ship a long arm without a stock attached, regardless of what any state will require afterwards to change the registration of the firearm. Bvamp, You won't have to ship a gun with no stock. Michigan considers any gun under 30" in overall length to be a pistol. They also measure the gun in the shortest configuration in which it can be fired. A S-12 with the 19" barrel and a folding stock will qualify as a pistol in Michigan. If you ship him a gun with the basic conversion, (i.e. no folding stock and a 22" barrel), he can modify the gun with the folder and a shorter barrel after taking possession of the weapon and then register it in Michigan as a pistol. -Centerfire Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YARP 300 Posted October 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Bvamp, Thanks for the offer! I think for the moment I'm going to change the direction I'm going with the one I currently own. after reading the post on Barrel length and velocity ( http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=19103 ) I think I may be taking my current 24" barrel Saiga and cutting the barrel down while doing a velocity test to report on here. I think at this point I may be looking at a 19" to 19.5" barrel with porting. I'm skipping the folding stock and going straight for a bullpup configuration. I'm a righty but I'll need to be able to fire from my left so I guess I'll just have to figure out a way to make sure the shells eject forward so I don't get a throat massage! LOL! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 I'm a righty but I'll need to be able to fire from my left so I guess I'll just have to figure out a way to make sure the shells eject forward so I don't get a throat massage! LOL! As a lefty, I tend to stay away from most bullpups, but I HAVE seen a thread on a different forum where somebody made a brass deflector on a bullpup rifle. I think it was a mini 14 in a clamshell bullpup stock. If I remember correctly, they used a piece of kydex bent over the top of the action. It looked a little funny, but I guess it worked. Obviously, it would require access to the charging handle, so it would either need to stand a ways away from the action, or it would have to pivot out of the way to work the action by hand. Regardless, it might mess up reliable function if the empties cannot eject far enough away from the action, so be aware. Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rodm1 2 Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) Pic one of these up. They are Michigan complaint like you seed "Using stupid law to my advantage" http://www.gunshowreview.com/SHOT2008/images/00-2-5-08-0125.jpg Edited October 2, 2009 by rodm1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
theblackcat 0 Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 New to this board, good to see some fellow Michiganders here. Just a note incase you have not heard: Michigan House bill 5038 has passed and is now in the Senate. This bill will revise the pistol definition in MI to bring it more in line with Fedral rules (under 26" instead of 30"). If passed it will go into effect on 01/01/2010 BUT any long gun registered as a pistol under the current law before this date will be grandfathered to the current owner which means it can still be carried with a CPL. If you think you may need to carry a long gun you may want to register it before the new year just to be safe. Link Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Interesting. I wonder if people will have to have the CPL before that date or just the weapon that's under 30". Hmmmmm..... Luckily I have a designated "pistol shotgun" that's being shipped to me as we speak. I'm not talking about my Saiga, though I might consider registering it. Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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