GuyFoX 24 Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 (edited) Well, I did IT! I took The leap and joined the prestigious Saiga 12 club. I have been searching for information about Saigas for months now, and finally got one. Actually I got it a few weeks ago, at the local gun show. It was something of an impulse buy, sorta, so I'm a little unsure if it was the best choice. Not the gun itself of course, but the vendor & way I purchased it. I had been searching the net relentlessly to find the best price. I was thinking that if I patiently scouted the Gunbroker auctions and checked all of the local gun shops I could find a great deal. But then I went to the gun show, and carefully looked at ALL of the tables for a Saiga. I found several vendors carrying Saigas, but I think I only found one carrying the Saiga 12 w/ a 19" barrel(actually a LOT of them, all new) like I wanted(at least only one at a reasonable price, though I'm pretty sure it was the only vendor carrying Saiga 12s w/ 19" barrels). It turned out that he is one of the more prolific sellers of Saiga 12s on Gunbroker, or at least the one offering the best deals. He had a huge stack of new Saigas, and was selling the 19" Saiga 12 for $500, which is about the best price I had seen when looking online. So, I couldn't resist, and bought one. With tax it came to about $530 total, $540 if you count admission to the gun show; though I made contact with, and learned a lot from some helpful people selling reloading equipment(another area I know next to nothing about but am very interested in learning about and getting into), so I'm not counting the admission price in the gun's total. While I was at his table fondling and drooling over the Saiga, some guy walking by said that he thought that was a good price for the 19" Saiga, and talked to me for a minute about it. He mentioned this site, so I've been wondering if he is a member here? I PM'ed a few members that appear to be local, but haven't got a hit. Did any of you talk to a gimp at a gunshow on the 17th about Saigas? It kind of made me a little nervous when I was buying it, because he asked me if I wanted a 12rd magazine with it. I had done enough research at that point to know that a 12rd mag in a stock Saiga would be a 922r violation, which he had to have known too. I was also asking about the gas ports because I wanted to avoid a "vodka special". I don't remember who told me this, the vendor or the other guy I was talking to, but one of them told me that there wasn't a way to check the gas ports without totally taking the gun apart! So I was kind of annoyed and suspicious when I found out all you have to do is remove the gas plug! I also had to receive the dreaded Mark of The Blast to buy my fantasy firearm: "He forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark... of the blast." – Rev. 13:16-17(slightly paraphrased) (the Saiga shocker) So... I sold my soul for a Saiga, and here's my precious present in it's gift box: and inside, my sweet, SWEET Saiga: It took me a little while to post this because there were still a few things I wanted to learn. As much as I hate to admit it, I took it apart and it took me about a week to learn how to put it back together:unsure:(bolt issues). It also took me quite a while to figure out how to check the gas ports(it has 3, and while I'm not sure how big they're supposed to be, they look like they might be a little small to me. It sounds like that is pretty standard now.). But, after watching a reassembly vid from YouTube a few dozen times, and searching this forum OVER and over, I finally got it back together and checked the ports. I took it apart, and wiped it down with some silicone spray. The safety and the action are a LITTLE smoother now, though there is obviously still a LOT of work to do. The action/bolt in particular are rather rough, it tends to stick a bit about midway. I'm thinking some polishing is in order. It sounds like "breaking it in" with some high-brass ammo would do pretty much the same thing, though it sounds like polishing the rails/bolt/hammer(?) would be the more refined way to achieve the same effect. Though I'm wondering if polishing those parts would void the warranty, or if the warranty even applies to me considering how I purchased it? Right now I am trying to learn more about the "break-in" & polishing procedures, and educate myself on shotgun ammo. Sadly, I still haven't test-fired it yet(I still need to find a local range!), though I've bought some ammo for it. I got a box of 15rds of Winchester SuperX 2-3/4" 1oz hollow-point rifled slugs, and the 100rd value pack of Federal 3 dram, 1-1/8oz, 8 shot, multi-purpose load shells. I've read that the Winchester value pack is useless, but the Fed shells will work. However I noticed that the references to the Federal value pack loads mention them being 7-1/2shot, while the shells I got are 8shot. I still don't even know what that means, or what the dram is. I know I need to break it in before I use the low-brass Federal shells(if I got the right kind?). Would polishing the rails and other surfaces the bolt contacts do the same things as a high-brass break-in, or would a high-brass break-in do anything else? Does a break-in do anything to the gas system? So now I'm at the stage where I need to A.test-fire it & B.plan the conversion(restoration). I plan on restoring/moving the FCG, adding a pistol grip, and a folding/collapsible stock. The "stock" stock is far too long for me. I'm not a big guy to start with(about 5'10" before I lost the ability to stand) but now, being as how I am in a wheelchair, and most of my trunk muscles are paralyzed, I have to move forward in my chair so I can sit way back just to hold the gun up with the stock against my shoulder. That issue is going to make test firing a little(lot) awkward, and makes the prospect of firing hundreds of high-brass rounds to break it in rather unpleasant(very unpleasant). That's one reason I'd like to polish the rail, bolt, etc instead of the "beat it into submission" method. It also means I need to find a fairly short folding stock so I can comfortably fire it from my shoulder. Moving/restoring the FCG & adding the pistol grip should greatly improve the balance and handling as well. Some of the other conversion parts I'm considering are the highly recommended Gunfixr's Gas Plug(though I hear an auto-adjusting version is in development!), the as-of-yet unavailable LRBHO(!) & Double-stack mags(!!), a drum(if I can ever afford it?!), recoil buffers, and possibly a raised front site and fore-grip. I've been told that the mag makes a good fore-grip, which is one reason I haven' decided on adding a fore-grip, and also why I would like to replace enough of the original parts that I can still use the metal factory mag after converting. Though I believe that the in-development double-stack mags will have metal parts, and sound(SWEET!) like they will be more secure than the other(polymer) aftermarket mags. I'm sure there are other parts I will get, but that's all I've decided on so far. And while I have decided on getting a new FCG, a pistol-grip, and a folding/collapsible stock, and various recoil buffers; I still haven't decided on a specific model for any of those yet. I've read some things about replacing some internal parts, though I don't understand what parts those may be or why they would need to be replaced. I've read some about installing lighter springs, which I doubt I'll do because I really don't want to have to change out springs to shoot high-brass ammo, I'd much prefer to be able to use a variety of ammo in my gun without switching out parts. I've looked at a bunch of pictures of converted Saigas, and have seen a LOT of sweet ones, but am still trying to figure out how to friggin' download those pictures! Once I do figure that out, I will post some pictures showing some of the parts I like, so I can find out what they are. Of course I could just link to the pictures posted, but I doubt that is possible with the foul flash pictures problems. Obviously I still have a LOT to learn, and there are SO many options and variables that it is quite intimidating; especially for me, since this is my first experience with shotguns AND AKs! I will have MANY more questions about my planned conversions, and tuning up my new Saiga. As I convert/restore it, I will be posting updates and pictures showing the progress. Of course I would really appreciate all tips and advice to help guide me along the path of Saiga restoration & conversion. I am a little intimidated because I am very mechanically challenged and am not a particularly handy "handi", though I've read that many of the conversion processes are very easy(I hope so!). I don't have access to a machine-shop, though I do have a drill(and access to a drill press) and a dremel, though I need new/different dremel bitss, and need to do some research on exactly which ones are required for the conversion/restoration(polishing?) projects I will be attempting. While I somewhat dread the conversion process, I look forward to customizing it exactly the way I want, and I know I will take great satisfaction in it once I am done(if I don't royally eff it up!). The addiction has begun, though I'm afraid progress will be slow as my budget is very limited. Wish me luck, I'll need it; and go easy on me and all of my dumb questions. Edited October 31, 2009 by GuyFoX 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Congrats on the new purchase. Before you do anything to it at all, you should test fire it first. It looks like you havce a decent selection of ammo. Just take it to the range and fire the weapon on setting number 2 with the light loads first, to see how it will perform with this ammo on this setting. Then after one mag of low brass on #2 (assuming it makes it all the way through 5 rds with no FTE / FTF), adjust it to #1 and try that just for the hell of it. It probably won't cycle that way but it's nice to know all this later on when you go changing parts around. The biggest mistake I see a lot of people make right off the bat is, they get to reading all these things on the site about this and that upgrade, they order a bunch of parts and start sticking them in there, before even going through a few range sessions with the stock gun. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GuyFoX 24 Posted October 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Yeah, I'm definitely going to test fire it before I do ANYTHING to it. Should I fire the slugs first(on #1) to warm it up before I try the light stuff? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Nope. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Yeah, I'm definitely going to test fire it before I do ANYTHING to it. Should I fire the slugs first(on #1) to warm it up before I try the light stuff? what you want for cheap stuff is 1 1/8oz shells. the 8's should be fine. if it hangs up when you fire the light stuff, put it on setting 1 and dump a couple slugs down it, and set it back to #2 and try the light shells again. oh yeh, make sure the brakes are engaged on your chair 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GuyFoX 24 Posted October 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 what you want for cheap stuff is 1 1/8oz shells. the 8's should be fine. if it hangs up when you fire the light stuff, put it on setting 1 and dump a couple slugs down it, and set it back to #2 and try the light shells again. OK, cool. Hey do you(or anybody) have a link to a page explaining what all the terms for shotshells mean(ie. dram, shot#, weight and all that)? I've done some searches but haven't found anything yet. oh yeh, make sure the brakes are engaged on your chair No way! What do you think I got this thing for? It's my new propulsion system! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 (edited) The number associated with the shot, (e.g. #8 birdshot, 00 buckshot), indicates the size of the individual balls o lead, (or steel). The lower the number, the larger the shot. The weight, (e.g. 1 1/8 oz), is the weight of all of the shot in each shell. The dram is a pretty archaic unit of measure, (much like gauge), that indicates the amount of powder in each shell. Higher dram measurement = more power = more wonderful destruction Anyway, congrats on your new S-12 and welcome to the addiction!! Edited October 31, 2009 by post-apocalyptic 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 grasshopper, your search foo is weak.... http://en.wikipedia....i/Shotgun_shell also, dram is now referred to by most manufacturers as "dram equivalent" drams were used as a weight of powder back when there was black powder and then into the years when there was only one or two types of smokeless powder. when you see MAX DRAM on a shell box, it only means its loaded to near max recommended pressures......the weight of the poweder charge is NOT the same across manufacturers anymore, and isnt by dram weights......its only a reference. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 ^ Yeah, yeah.. I was close enough, (and I didn't do a search before posting). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 yeh yeh, i already know this stuff since I was ten, and didnt want to type it all out. so shoot me, just trying to help the guy out. damn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Congratulations, we look forward to your range report! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 (edited) BVamp, I wasn't trying to talk shit, I was just pointing out that what I posted was mostly correct. A higher dram, (or dram equiv) = more power, as I said. *shrug* I don't mean anything I post on these boards to be taken personally. If it were ftf conversation, BVamp, I wouldn't come across as hostile, which I apparently am through board posts. Edited October 31, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GuyFoX 24 Posted October 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 (edited) Damn, I've got brain damage. I thought somebody deleted my post for a minute, and then I found the tab with the half-written reply. It can get confusing when you're perpetually terminally sleep-deprived and are trying to cram so much in a once that you have 80 tabs open in your browser!!! I sh!t you not, I just checked and at the moment I actually have 80 tabs open! That's taking multi-tasking to such ridiculous excess that you(I) never actually complete any of those tasks, and it all runs together in one big nightmare blur. Eff me in the goat @$! The number associated with the shot, (e.g. #8 birdshot, 00 buckshot), indicates the size of the individual balls o lead, (or steel). The lower the number, the larger the shot. The weight, (e.g. 1 1/8 oz), is the weight of all of the shot in each shell. The dram is a pretty archaic unit of measure, (much like gauge), that indicates the amount of powder in each shell. Higher dram measurement = more power = more wonderful destruction Anyway, congrats on your new S-12 and welcome to the addiction!! OK thanks, that makes sense. I had a pretty good idea what the #(ie. 00) for buckshot meant(it's similar to the gauge measurement for body piercing, For instance I have my earlobes stretched to 00 gauge), but beyond that I was pretty lost. I got thoroughly confused looking at the shotshells at WallyWorld(throws up in mouth) and trying to figure out what all the #s and terms meant and what I should get(still kicking myself for not buying the 00 buckshot). Thank you, thank you, glad to be here. My name is V, and I am an addict! (BTW, love your avatar) grasshopper, your search foo is weak.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_shellalso, dram is now referred to by most manufacturers as "dram equivalent"; drams were used as a weight of powder back when there was black powder and then into the years when there was only one or two types of smokeless powder. when you see MAX DRAM on a shell box, it only means its loaded to near max recommended pressures......the weight of the poweder charge is NOT the same across manufacturers anymore, and isnt by dram weights......its only a reference. Again in the goat ass, dammit! Your Kung-Fu may be best, but I don't think my search skillz are the problem; it's more my organization and concentration skills that are lacking. That wiki page looks familiar and I'm pretty sure I looked it up a few days ago, but obviously didn't absorb much from it. Thanks for refreshing my unreliable memory. One of the things that may have thrown me(is ME!) is that it doesn't mention dram, and I just kinda skimmed it real quick looking for the terms I saw on the box, and math is against my religion so the #s just make my eyes glaze over. My bad. OK, dram equivalent, I think it says "Dram Eq" on one of the boxes of shells I got, makes sense. I'll actually read the whole thing carefully this time, I'll try and print it out. Congratulations, we look forward to your range report! Watch the news, with my luck it will be one of the tragedies of the day, though it might be too disturbing for prime-time. <br />If it were ftf conversation, BVamp, I wouldn't come across as hostile Just ultra-violent? So given the basic framework of my plan as I described in my first post, if anyone has any suggestions on areas to focus on or parts that they think would be good for my situation, let me know. I've spent the last few months just brushing up on the basics(and seeing as how I knew nothing about shotguns OR AKs, I'd say I've made a hell of a lot of progress). I'm going to be spending the immediate future studying the specific parts I'm focusing on(starting with the FCG, pistol grip & stock), and things like the gas system and polishing internal parts; while of course studying and trying to keep the bigger picture of the full conversion/restoration in general in mind. Now if I can just FOCUS... Edited October 31, 2009 by GuyFoX Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 BVamp, I wasn't trying to talk shit, I was just pointing out that what I posted was mostly correct. A higher dram, (or dram equiv) = more power, as I said. *shrug* I don't mean anything I post on these boards to be taken personally. If it were ftf conversation, BVamp, I wouldn't come across as hostile, which I apparently am through board posts. its cool man, dont worry about it. i just took your wording wrong I guess, my fault, dude. need video of OP with the brakes off in his chair shooting!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 GuyFox, Where ya from? I can't find 'Ass end of Hell' on any map. I never mastered shooting long-arms when I was a Gimp, I guess I didn't try hard enough. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Modiano 5 Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) looks like you got a great deal on your s-12. as for break-in, stick to loads on gas settting #1: buckshot, slugs, and 3" magnum birdshot. you should have no problem cycling those. after 100 or so rounds of those, try some heavy birdshot loads on gas setting #2. 1 1/4oz if you can find it. 1 1/8oz may not always cycle reliably until your gun has been broken in appropriately. being able to shoot walmart bulk packs of federal or remmnington birdshot is pretty much like the holy grail. it'll either take some serious work and polishing or a serious break-in. some guys will replace their recoil spring with a 1911 spring to improve reliability with lighter loads...i'm no expert, but it seems like shooting full power loads with a 1911 spring will beat up your rear trunion. about the 12rd mag, yes, on a stock s-12, it would be in violation of 922r. your gun has 14 "imported parts". 922r requires that you go down to 10 or less to use hi-cap mags. box magazines counts as 3parts. i assume that 12rd mag is russian. in order to use an imported hi-cap mag, you've have to lose 4 parts. if you want to use a us-made 10rd mag, you only have to lose one part. gas puck is the easiest single. 922r can be very confusing, but it sounds like you have a good grasp of it. just remember that your gun (s-12 with threaded barrel) came with 14 imported parts. break in your gun in it's current configuration to make sure it's not a lemon or "vodka special". after that, if you want to use a russian 12rd mag, you've got to make sure you 922r part count is no more than 10, INCLUDING the russian mag which counts as 3 parts i advise: #1. shoot 100+ full power loads on gas setting #1. for break-in. #2. convert/restore to keep you parts count w/o mag to 7. once you add in 12rd russian mag, you'll be at 10 922r parts. #3. keep shooting and tweak as needed. Edited November 2, 2009 by Modiano 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GuyFoX 24 Posted November 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) GuyFox, Where ya from? I can't find 'Ass end of Hell' on any map. I never mastered shooting long-arms when I was a Gimp, I guess I didn't try hard enough. You should invest in a more honest map. The tourism board has another name for it, but they're not fooling me. I'm stuck in the Twilight of the Garden of Good & Evil... mostly evil. The dirty deep south is a wretched wasteland, on just about every level(IMO). You never mastered shooting long-arms when you were a Gimp?? What, you got better? Last time I checked, gimpdom is essentially an terminal condition. The central nervous system, the crucial core of control for the body, is the one part that doesn't heal; intelligent design my ass! I certainly haven't mastered shooting long-arms, in fact I still haven't even found a decent range in the ass end of hell to actually test-fire my new Saiga, and I haven't even had the chance(or the place) to shoot my XD since my untimely demise, much to my dismay. I'm a little embarrassed to admit it, but I've never shot a shotgun or an AK before, so this will be breaking all kinds of new ground. I must admit, that the Saiga in it's stock configuration is very awkward for me to handle, and I'm a little worried about how the test firing will go. With that big long stock buttstock on there and my lack of trunk muscles, I have to sit in a weird reclined position just to shoulder it. I think I'm just going to do the minimum test-firing necessary, and then get to work on converting it ASAP. I think with the FCG moved forward, a pistol grip and a SHORT folding stock, it will be MUCH easier for me to handle effectively. Wish me luck, I need it. Edited November 12, 2009 by GuyFoX Quote Link to post Share on other sites
belt fed frog 56 Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 GuyFoX, given that your are semi recumbent position for shooting Dont Set the Brakes on your chariot you might be looking at sky after the first shot and that be no fun to you and funny as hell to those who are cruel , being a "gimp" as you term it is only a limitation to be overcome with a little creative thought , i know a 50 cal BMG shooter who is in much the same state and he worked his way around the problems of firing a 30-50 LB rifle , now his chariot was a honda Odyssey OHV set up with hand controls he built up for off road hunting but some of the solutions are applicable to you one of the first things he did for his regular chair was make a bar the extended forward from the arm rests across the front at sight level for him as a forward support for the rifle /shotgun, something you might consider it will turn your chair into a mobile shooting bench , you also might want to either add some temporary weight to the front or a set of deployable wheelie bars to the rear what ever you do just have fun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GuyFoX 24 Posted January 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2010 Unfortunately I STILL haven't been able to test fire my S12! It's driving me nuts because I REALLY need to, so I can start to focus on getting my conversion on! The problem is I don't know the area that well and don't get out much. The few people I have met are not into guns, so it's been difficult to find a place to shoot. I thought that there would be a plethora of shooting ranges in the deep south, but all I've found so far in the particular city I "live" in are EXPENSIVE private clubs and a few indoor ranges which don't seem to allow shotguns(are shotguns banned in ALL indoor ranges?). *sighhh* The search for a place to shoot continues... Update(I started writing this post months ago & didn't get around to finishing & posting it until now), I PMed a member of this site who lives near me, and he gave me a tip about a place where I can shoot my S12! I still don't have all the details, but I am determined to get there and FINALLY test-fire my S12 this weekend! I got some more high-brass break-in rounds in 00 buckshot. I got one box of Winchester SuperX 2-3/4", 9 pellet shells; and a box of magnums, the Winchester SuperX 3" 15 pellet shells. Looking at the two kinds of 00buckshot I got, I'm guessing that they both have the same powder charge, but the 3" shells just hold more pellets? I would think that the extra 1/4" is filled with the extra 6 buckshot pellets, though I'm kinda surprised that they could cram that many more 00 pellets in 1/4", and wonder if there could actually be less powder in the 3" shells? I saw some cheaper birdshot marked as high-brass that I am wondering about. I took down all the specs off the boxes of the loads @ the local ghetto Wally World. It sucks because they don't have an actual firearm department, they just carry a limited supply of ammo. Anyway, the non-buckshot or slug high-brass loads they carry are: -Winchester SuperX lead-shot High Brass Game Load: (2-3/4", 3-3/4 Dram Eq, 1-1/4oz; 4, 6, or 7-1/2 Lead-Shot) I'm guessing the #4 lead shot would be best in this load, or does the size not matter, just the combined weight? -Super-Speed Xtra Game Load: (2-3/4", 1350fps, 1oz, 6 or 8 shot) -Xpert Game/Target Steel-Shot: (2-3/4", 1325fps, 1oz, 7 shot) -SuperX Lead Shot Heavy Game Load: (2-3/4", 3-1/4 Dram Eq, 1-1/8oz, 7-1/2 or 8 shot)? I know that slugs or buckshot are probably the best break-in loads, but which of these cheaper high brass loads would be the next best for break-in and why? GuyFoX, given that your are semi recumbent position for shooting Dont Set the Brakes on your chariot you might be looking at sky after the first shot and that be no fun to you and funny as hell to those who are cruel , being a "gimp" as you term it is only a limitation to be overcome with a little creative thought , i know a 50 cal BMG shooter who is in much the same state and he worked his way around the problems of firing a 30-50 LB rifle , now his chariot was a honda Odyssey OHV set up with hand controls he built up for off road hunting but some of the solutions are applicable to you one of the first things he did for his regular chair was make a bar the extended forward from the arm rests across the front at sight level for him as a forward support for the rifle /shotgun, something you might consider it will turn your chair into a mobile shooting bench , you also might want to either add some temporary weight to the front or a set of deployable wheelie bars to the rear what ever you do just have fun Thanks for the advice, though I don't anticipate the brakes really being a problem. I was thinking that for the 1st shot I will probably only load 1 shell(the federal bulk) just to be on the safe side and get a feel for it. I have had experience with going over backwards before. Actually I was coming out of a restaurant, which had a steep curb at the back door that I had to back down. I came down to fast, tipped over backwards, and had enough momentum that I actually rolled over my head(with all of the weight of me and this damned chair) and ended up face down on the sidewalk. After the initial "oh shit", that provided plenty of amusement for the "audience". I can laugh looking back, but at the time it really sucked and I was worried that I may have injured my legs/feet as they took the brunt of the impact as I slammed into the sidewalk, though I'm surprised I didn't do(more) damage to my head/neck in the process. Of course I have a VERY hard head, literally and figuratively. In the car accident that ended life as I knew it, my car flew off a large embankment and into a BIG tree, which broke in half(and I was just in a little, light honda, and I impacted the tree right at my driver-side door). My car then flipped upside-down and fell to the ground. The top of the car collapsed on me(I've seen pictures of the aftermath and there is nothing on the car that was left any higher than the hood). The impact split my scalp, and crushed my spine with such force that 2 vertabrae in the thick middle(thoracic) section of my spine exploded(burst fracture), but my very hard head remained intact. Anyways, enough "war"" stories, as for the brakes and shooting position... I usually have tip-bars on the back of my chair, as they make it a lot easier to get the chair in and out of my car, and usually catch me if I start to tip backwards, so I will definitely leave them on when I test fire my S12. I'll also have a "spotter" with me. As for my awkward sitting position, I don't think it will make me tip much easier, since my center of balance isn't changing much. My seat back doesn't recline, so to sit in a reclined position I have to move forward towards the front of my seat cushion, and then lean back against my chair back. This will be awkward and uncomfortable, but will not greatly change my weight distribution or balance. The "gimp limitation" requires quite a bit of creative thinking to work around in most situations, so I am all-too used to it, and think I can make this work, though like everything else it will probably be an awkward and uncomfortable compromise. Fuck it, no pain no gain, or so they say. Though pain certainly does not guarantee any kind of gain, I think for this particular endeavor it will pay off. I did make a little ghetto recoil-pad for the end of the buttstock to help absorb a LITTLE of the punishment, but it is super thin and isn't going to do much(I couldn't make something too thick since the buttstock is WAY to long for me already)! One final question. I know that this test-firing is necessary before I start to convert to determine if there are any warranty issues that need to be addressed first, however I am not quite sure exactly how to make that determination. I know the gun requires a break-in period before it will reliably cycle low brass loads, so how do I know if something is wrong and needs warranty work, or if it just needs "breaking-in"? I know as usual I'm asking a LOT of questions. I don't get around to posting questions that often, so when I do I tend to pack too many into one post. But please just contribute whatever you can in response to whatever questions you have answers for, if I get enough Sage Saiga Wisdom donated I'll eventually put it all together and get it figured out! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scattergunner 12 Posted January 29, 2010 Report Share Posted January 29, 2010 buy a federal bulk pack at wallmart and some sluggers while you are there... then go cook it all off and report back. you will know by then if it needs warranty work or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GuyFoX 24 Posted January 31, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 buy a federal bulk pack at wallmart and some sluggers while you are there... then go cook it all off and report back. you will know by then if it needs warranty work or not. Right now I am trying to learn more about the "break-in" & polishing procedures, and educate myself on shotgun ammo... I've bought some ammo for it. I got a box of 15rds of Winchester SuperX 2-3/4" 1oz hollow-point rifled slugs, and the 100rd value pack of Federal 3 dram, 1-1/8oz, 8 shot, multi-purpose load shells. I plan on blowing my S12 cherry to bits tomorrow, which I am very much looking forward to, but still have some(many) questions: I got some more high-brass break-in rounds in 00 buckshot. I got one box of Winchester SuperX 2-3/4", 9 pellet shells; and a box of magnums, the Winchester SuperX 3" 15 pellet shells. Looking at the two kinds of 00buckshot I got, I'm guessing that they both have the same powder charge, but the 3" shells just hold more pellets? I would think that the extra 1/4" is filled with the extra 6 buckshot pellets, though I'm kinda surprised that they could cram that many more 00 pellets in 1/4", and wonder if there could actually be less powder in the 3" shells? I saw some cheaper birdshot marked as high-brass that I am wondering about. I took down all the specs off the boxes of the loads @ the local ghetto Wally World. It sucks because they don't have an actual firearm department, they just carry a limited supply of ammo. Anyway, the non-buckshot or slug high-brass loads they carry are: -Winchester SuperX lead-shot High Brass Game Load: (2-3/4", 3-3/4 Dram Eq, 1-1/4oz; 4, 6, or 7-1/2 Lead-Shot) I'm guessing the #4 lead shot would be best in this load, or does the size not matter, just the combined weight? -Super-Speed Xtra Game Load: (2-3/4", 1350fps, 1oz, 6 or 8 shot) -Xpert Game/Target Steel-Shot: (2-3/4", 1325fps, 1oz, 7 shot) -SuperX Lead Shot Heavy Game Load: (2-3/4", 3-1/4 Dram Eq, 1-1/8oz, 7-1/2 or 8 shot) I know that slugs or buckshot are probably the best break-in loads, but which of these cheaper high brass loads would be the next best for break-in and why? One final question. I know that this test-firing is necessary before I start to convert to determine if there are any warranty issues that need to be addressed first, however I am not quite sure exactly how to make that determination. I know the gun requires a break-in period before it will reliably cycle low brass loads, so how do I know if something is wrong and needs warranty work, or if it just needs "breaking-in"? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scattergunner 12 Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 hello young grasshopper, first cook off the 3" shells you got on gas setting #1 (btw 3" magnum loads have a lot more powder than normal 2 3/4" loads!!! you'll see!) then blast off the normal power loads on setting 1. if they get caught up in the gun and jam on their way out(fte, stovepipe etc.)or leave a spent shell in the chamber, switch to setting 2. if that goes well, try the federal bulk pack at wally world ($23.00 for 100) dont even try the cheap winchester bulk pack cuz they are underpowered . if they wont eject properly on setting 2 when gun is clean and lubed, you probably need warranty work. i highly recommend a gun safety course or to go out with an experienced shooter your first time out if you have any doubt about your firearm saftey skills, and basic gun knowledge. and do yourself a favor and pick up a gunfixers improved gas plug if you want to have good luck running a lot of high powered loads through your saiga. magnum loads are extremely powerfull and you dont want to let your baby get beat up by repeated use of high powered loads with too much gas pressure. 2 3/4 inch loads are plenty for plinking by the way... keep reading up around here, be safe and you will be one happy camper! oh, and dont forget the vids!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GuyFoX 24 Posted February 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Well I cut it close as usual, but I manged to meet my January deadline and test-fired my S12 on Sunday(the last day of January)! The loads I had with me were the Federal Bulk, Winchester buckshot & 3" magnum buckshot, and the Winchester rifled slugs that I talked about above. I don't remember exactly how it went because of the adrenaline rush and because we had to rush it because we got out to the range later than I had hoped and were losing light quick, but here's what I remember: I pulled up to the firing line and put the brakes on my chair. Like I mentioned I have a hard time holding the gun up because it's so nose-heavy, I have VERY limited trunk-muscle use, and because of the long "sporting" stock and other balance issues that are a result of the Saiga's stoopid "sporting" de-configuration. So I scooted forward to the front edge of my seat cushion and then sat reclined against the seat back, which was fairly awkward, as expected. I was fairly worried about the recoil kicking my ass since A)this was my first time ever shooting a shotgun, B)I was sitting in an awkward position, and C)because I was warned to be careful or I could end up getting tipped-over backwards. I did have the tip-bars on my chair, and had a spotter with me just in case. I also had fashioned a very crude home-made recoil pad, which was basically just a few thin pieces of rubber I duct-taped to the end of the stock. I think it helped a little, but I'm sure a Limbsaver or other real recoil pad would be much more effective. Anyways, as for the actual firing of the beast... First I tried the Federal Bulk loads. I took the first shot(my first time EVER shooting a shotgun!). It was a good solid kick to the shoulder, but didn't come close to tipping me over. I looked to see if it had ejected the shell, though I was expecting that it probably wouldn't since I've read that it usually takes a 100+ high brass loads before the Saiga will cycle the low brass bulk shot. The bolt was closed, so I wondered if it had actually ejected the shell and loaded the next one? My "spotter" had not noticed if a shell had been ejected either. So I locked the bolt back to take a look. The spent shell was still in there, so it had not even been partially ejected, DOH! Then I remembered that in my haste I had forgotten to set the gas plug @ setting#2, oops! So I changed the gas setting, and tried again. Here's where I'm a little fuzzy on the details. On the right gas setting, it might have ejected the shell, though I'm kinda thinking it may have stove-piped? Either way, I decided to try some high brass at that point. I loaded it so my first three shots were buckshot, then one of the 3" magnum buckshot loads, and then a slug. From what I'd read, I anticipated the slug being the harshest recoil. but I was wrong. First I fired a round of the buckshot, which definitely had more kick than the Fed bulk, but it wasn't too bad. After the first shot I remembered that I had forgot to change the gas plug back to setting#1(oops again), and while fumbling with a flashlight and the little gerber tool on my keychain to change the setting, I quickly came to understand why everyone recommends Gunfixr's Gas Plug so highly! Though as unreliable as my memory is, I'm wondering if perhaps I should wait until he puts out his self-adjusting gas plug? So anyways, once I corrected the gas setting, I fired off the other two buckshot loads, and then came the 3" magnum. OUCH! That felt like getting kicked in the shoulder by one seriously pissed-off Ruskie Antelope! My shoulders still a little sore, but I rarely ever visibly bruise. My chair still didn't tip backwards at all, so luckily that won't be an issue. After the punishment from the magnum, I was worried about the slug, but it was about the same as the standard buckshot, and certainly less punishing than the magnum load. After firing off a mag or two of the high-brass loads(5-10, my only mag right now is the stock 5-rounder), I tried shooting some more of the Federal bulk shot. After fumbling with the gas plug again, I gave the bulk shot another try. I was VERY pleasantly surprised that the low brass bulk loads cycled just fine! AWESOME! I actually got an S12 with a correctly functioning gas system, and didn't even require hundreds of shoulder-punishing high brass break-in rounds before it would cycle the light stuff! Hooray! I still plan on polishing the rails and other internals to smooth-out the action some, but I am VERY happy with my test-firing experience, couldn't ask for much more than that! I also shot a few mags of 9mm & 357sig out of my XD, which is my(SWEET!) carry piece. So that was a VERY gratifying day. It was the first time I had been out shooting AT ALL since my untimely demise 5 years ago! I'm definitely going to have to go shoot MUCH more often. Though now I need to really get to work on restoring and upgrading my S12! I have a lot of ideas and have been working on plans for months now, but now I've got the green light so it's full speed ahead! And I'm stoked because all kinds of great S12 gear is coming out or about to come out, like the MDoublestacks & magwell(plus he just made his great drum affordable!.. though I'm still trying to find out if his magwell & drum will be compatible?!), the Chaos compact drum & 8rd steel mags, Cobra's LRBHO(hopefully?!), and... lots of other cool shit! I'd still like to know which of the following non-buckshot or slug high-brass loads would be the next-best break-in loads and why?: -Winchester SuperX lead-shot High Brass Game Load: (2-3/4", 3-3/4 Dram Eq, 1-1/4oz; 4, 6, or 7-1/2 Lead-Shot) I'm guessing the #4 lead shot would be best in this load, or does the size not matter, just the combined weight? -Super-Speed Xtra Game Load: (2-3/4", 1350fps, 1oz, 6 or 8 shot) -Xpert Game/Target Steel-Shot: (2-3/4", 1325fps, 1oz, 7 shot) -SuperX Lead Shot Heavy Game Load: (2-3/4", 3-1/4 Dram Eq, 1-1/8oz, 7-1/2 or 8 shot) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 I am so happy to hear this result for you, you have no idea, GuyFox. I have been waiting to see how you would fair. are you going to keep the gun stock, or go along and convert it? (can you imagine 3" 15 pellet buck in FULL AUTO? LOL) if you are ejecting on bulk pack, run the shit out of it with that.....(oh if you are lazy like me, rub some cheap ass toothpaste on the mating places of the internals and rails, and shoot the shit out of it to wear it in quicker, but dont tell anyone why its so fresh and minty smelling!! I guess you could use polishing compound, but to heck with that, right?) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GuyFoX 24 Posted February 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 (edited) Oh, well this was a delayed double-post, but I'll edit it into a reply. Thanks Bvamp, I'm extremely happy with the result of my test-firing as well. It all worked out about as well as it could have for me & my Saiga. I did my research and fully intended to convert the gun when I bought it. I think moving the FCG back to where it should be, adding a pistol grip, and a nice short buttstock with a recoil pad(& maybe a folding mech &/or mercury recoil absorbers) should help a lot with the balance and handling so I won't have to sit in such an awkward position. Geez, 3" 15 pellet buck in FULL AUTO?! That sounds brutal! That WOULD either tip me over or tear my arm off. Edited February 3, 2010 by GuyFoX Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scattergunner 12 Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 glad you had a blast man!! :killer: welcome to the clubhouse 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IronRonin 19 Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Super X 3" Magnum 15-00buck should only be used in times of apocalyptic war, imo. I "luckily" chose that ammo to break in my Saiga (60 of those devil rounds), and it beat the living shit out of me and made me scared of my shotgun, lol. I also inadvertently killed several small trees. I'll tell you what though, my gun sure as hell was broken in after that...and now any other round feels like a little pink sissy girl round in comparison. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dirt013 0 Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 (edited) Great posting, VERY helpful for us Newbs! Thanks to everyone who contributed! After the first shot I remembered that I had forgot to change the gas plug back to setting #1(oops again), and while fumbling with a flashlight and the little gerber tool on my keychain to change the setting, I quickly came to understand why everyone recommends Gunfixr's Gas Plug so highly! Not to be a stickler, but I trust you unloaded your shottie before performing this action, otherwise you're pointing a loaded weapon at your face! Edited February 3, 2010 by dirt013 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ViperRy 7 Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 If you're a true hardcore S12 enthusiast, you'll eat the paper in came wrapped in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scattergunner 12 Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 If you're a true hardcore S12 enthusiast, you'll eat the paper in came wrapped in. mine went down pretty smooth with a little cracked pepper and olive oil..... :lolol: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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