my762buzz 141 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) This was brought up on another board, but its always good to double check. I measured my Saiga rifle up to the rear [Edit correction over 26 inches with the tang included]tang at over 26 inches. Someone on another board suggested that if temporarily removing the stock to install another makes it fall under the 26 inch minimum and that would form an instant felony therefore can only legally be done by a Class III dealer or SOT. I can't imagine that if this is true because of so many pictures posted in the past of conversion details that it would not have been discussed more often. I'm not sure either way. The ATF has some rediculous interpretations of what is ok and not ok. So I am not going to assume anything. I would instead ask to know for sure. There is a wealth of great information and very knowledgable members on the Saiga 12 forum and I know asking here would be a good start in finding out. So, is this technically true or was he incorrect? Edited November 19, 2009 by my762buzz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saigafreake 27 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Its not an issue or most of us would be in federal prison. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
volkov 318 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 probably wouldn't walk around with it in public.. but yeah, most of us taken them off to slap a new one on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I don't know the definite answer to the legal question......................but I just measured my x39 Saiga, and got just over 25" from the tip of the muzzle, to the rear of the receiver. BUT, from the tip of the muzzle, to the end of the tang is a fraction under 26.5". Which would mean that it obviously meets the 26" OAL required by federal law. So, does the tang count in OAL? I guess that's another important question. Then again, what if you have your tang cut off? Because lots of people do, and I highly doubt they go to a gunsmith to swap stocks. Personally, I'm not worried about it. But I'd be interested in knowing the answer for curiosity's sake. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 You need to measure more accurately. From the end of the muzzle to the end of the stock tang (these are the two most opposing points), it's over 26" 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 You need to measure more accurately. From the end of the muzzle to the end of the stock tang (these are the two most opposing points), it's over 26" Good point. I was half awake when I read that commentary and rushed a fast measurement. I guess this changes my question. Lets say the tang has been cut off like for this.... Ok, so now to the end of the receiver should be less than 26 inches(if the barrel is only 16 inches) with the tang cut off. To me it seems like a gray area, but I don't want to assume anything. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) I hadn't really thought about it much, since I've only got Saiga shotguns and their barrels are 19", so the overall length is longer...... But I suppose if someone were to remove the tang (to add a receiver block or whatever), then with a 16" barrel, and the stock removed, they'd be under the 26" limit. At least for the time it took to swap out stocks or whatever. If that was the case, would such a rifle be considered "readily convertable" to an SBR? Corbin *Edit* My762Buzz beat me to the question. lol Edited November 17, 2009 by Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I'd suggest you change your stock and get on with life. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I'd suggest you change your stock and get on with life. I am not worried about changing a stock. I just figured this could be confirmed or denied. Sounds like no one knows for sure though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I'd suggest you change your stock and get on with life. I am not worried about changing a stock. I just figured this could be confirmed or denied. Sounds like no one knows for sure though. There is no "no one knows for sure". The law clearly states that if your rifle has a 16" barrel and is 26" long over all, it's legal. Do the math, and reverse this statement. OTOH, you're not going to jail for changing the stock (at least, not unless you've REALLY pissed someone off). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I'd suggest you change your stock and get on with life. I am not worried about changing a stock. I just figured this could be confirmed or denied. Sounds like no one knows for sure though. There is no "no one knows for sure". The law clearly states that if your rifle has a 16" barrel and is 26" long over all, it's legal. Do the math, and reverse this statement. OTOH, you're not going to jail for changing the stock (at least, not unless you've REALLY pissed someone off). Hope I didn't cause a rise in blood pressure there Mr. Lioth. Cheers 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RoughRider666 47 Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I can't believe something like this was even posted! LAME!!! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted November 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I can't believe something like this was even posted! LAME!!! I asked because there is a debate about this on another board. I thought it would be good to ask since there are many knowlegable people on this board like Tony Rumore, Tom Cole, and others. If someone asking an honest technical question offends you, then don't post in the damn thread. If I was browsing a home improvement board and saw a thread about whether or not its legal to use a certain type of roofing tile in a certain building code zone and I think its not relevant am I going to whine and complain about the man's question, hell no that would be retarded for a man to bitch like that. Try acting a little more mature and less like a troll bitch. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 I can't believe something like this was even posted! LAME!!! I asked because there is a debate about this on another board. I thought it would be good to ask since there are many knowlegable people on this board like Tony Rumore, Tom Cole, and others. If someone asking an honest technical question offends you, then don't post in the damn thread. If I was browsing a home improvement board and saw a thread about whether or not its legal to use a certain type of roofing tile in a certain building code zone and I think its not relevant am I going to whine and complain about the man's question, hell no that would be retarded for a man to bitch like that. Try acting a little more mature and less like a troll bitch. +1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cscharlie 107 Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 This was brought up on another board, but its always good to double check. I measured my Saiga rifle up to the rear [Edit correction over 26 inches with the tang included]tang at over 26 inches. Someone on another board suggested that if temporarily removing the stock to install another makes it fall under the 26 inch minimum and that would form an instant felony therefore can only legally be done by a Class III dealer or SOT. I can't imagine that if this is true because of so many pictures posted in the past of conversion details that it would not have been discussed more often. I'm not sure either way. The ATF has some rediculous interpretations of what is ok and not ok. So I am not going to assume anything. I would instead ask to know for sure. There is a wealth of great information and very knowledgable members on the Saiga 12 forum and I know asking here would be a good start in finding out. So, is this technically true or was he incorrect? If the barrel is removed before the stock is removed, then the min over all length does not apply at that point, until reassembled with the barrel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RoughRider666 47 Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 I can't believe something like this was even posted! LAME!!! I asked because there is a debate about this on another board. I thought it would be good to ask since there are many knowlegable people on this board like Tony Rumore, Tom Cole, and others. If someone asking an honest technical question offends you, then don't post in the damn thread. If I was browsing a home improvement board and saw a thread about whether or not its legal to use a certain type of roofing tile in a certain building code zone and I think its not relevant am I going to whine and complain about the man's question, hell no that would be retarded for a man to bitch like that. Try acting a little more mature and less like a troll bitch. silly wabbit..trix are for kids... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FluffRat 1 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 If the barrel is removed before the stock is removed, then the min over all length does not apply at that point, until reassembled with the barrel. Wait, what? Remove the barrel to change the stock on a Saiga?! If you're that worried about it just duct-tape something to the end of the barrel for the 30 seconds it takes to get one bolt snug on the new stock. Note that if you have any sort of muzzle device installed that should push you over 26" also. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted November 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 If the barrel is removed before the stock is removed, then the min over all length does not apply at that point, until reassembled with the barrel. Wait, what? Remove the barrel to change the stock on a Saiga?! If you're that worried about it just duct-tape something to the end of the barrel for the 30 seconds it takes to get one bolt snug on the new stock. Note that if you have any sort of muzzle device installed that should push you over 26" also. I don't think anyone's actually worried but its still good to know since I have seen pictures posted in the past of rifles with the stock removed and maybe it wouldn't be such a great idea to publicly display evidence, in the case that it really is less than 26 inches overall, that might incite some kind of jackbooted response by the executive branch. I think we might all agree that we don't need unwanted negative attention in the firearms ownership community. This is really more of a what exactly will not be tolerated by that special 3 letter agency that does not begin with F,C,N,I, or D. I guess this same issue could apply to other guns and its interesting to know what should be avoided. Like for example this. Potential SBR with the stock unscrewed at the folding joint? SU-16C 25.5 inches with the stock folded Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Like for example this. Potential SBR with the stock unscrewed at the folding joint? SU-16C 25.5 inches with the stock folded Which "folding joint" are you talking about? 1) functional fold (gun can be fired in this configuration) 2) transportation fold (gun can't be fired, as it's folded in half) If you're talking about 1), it's quite legal as end of pistol grip to end of barrel is 26.5" (and the barrel is 16") If you're talking about 2), it's legal, because the gun isn't "assembled" (and is inoperable, to boot) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted November 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Like for example this. Potential SBR with the stock unscrewed at the folding joint? SU-16C 25.5 inches with the stock folded Which "folding joint" are you talking about? 1) functional fold (gun can be fired in this configuration) 2) transportation fold (gun can't be fired, as it's folded in half) If you're talking about 1), it's quite legal as end of pistol grip to end of barrel is 26.5" (and the barrel is 16") If you're talking about 2), it's legal, because the gun isn't "assembled" (and is inoperable, to boot) The kel tec specs says 25.5 folded and it shows this picture. Kind of misleading in the way they use that picture and say http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16c.htm Length: 35.5" 901.7mm Length Folded: 25.5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted November 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 By the same logic, if you remove the carrier and bolt in your 16 inch barrel ak without a tang, even if you remove the stock and the overall is less than 26 inches it technically is just as inoperable as the folded kel tech which should be legal to remove the total stock even if the overall is now slightly over 24 inches. I'm not saying the ATF is logical, but that inoperable is inoperable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 I need glasses Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted November 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 I need glasses As in it is 25.5 with the functional fold? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 I need glasses As in it is 25.5 with the functional fold? You'd only be illegal if you removed the stock at the functional fold. Feds measure length with the stock extended. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cscharlie 107 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 If the barrel is removed before the stock is removed, then the min over all length does not apply at that point, until reassembled with the barrel. Wait, what? Remove the barrel to change the stock on a Saiga?! If you're that worried about it just duct-tape something to the end of the barrel for the 30 seconds it takes to get one bolt snug on the new stock. Note that if you have any sort of muzzle device installed that should push you over 26" also. If ever asked by anal storm troopers, I think most people will have a tough time explaining how they went about it in a way that does not break the law, if they don't know how. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted November 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 If the barrel is removed before the stock is removed, then the min over all length does not apply at that point, until reassembled with the barrel. Wait, what? Remove the barrel to change the stock on a Saiga?! If you're that worried about it just duct-tape something to the end of the barrel for the 30 seconds it takes to get one bolt snug on the new stock. Note that if you have any sort of muzzle device installed that should push you over 26" also. If ever asked by anal storm troopers, I think most people will have a tough time explaining how they went about it in a way that does not break the law, if they don't know how. A class III dealer gunsmith but I forgot his name sorry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cscharlie 107 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 If the barrel is removed before the stock is removed, then the min over all length does not apply at that point, until reassembled with the barrel. Wait, what? Remove the barrel to change the stock on a Saiga?! If you're that worried about it just duct-tape something to the end of the barrel for the 30 seconds it takes to get one bolt snug on the new stock. Note that if you have any sort of muzzle device installed that should push you over 26" also. If ever asked by anal storm troopers, I think most people will have a tough time explaining how they went about it in a way that does not break the law, if they don't know how. A class III dealer gunsmith but I forgot his name sorry. I hear ya. Could be a judge involved at some point. Not sure that would cut it with him. FYI Duct taping something to the end of the barrel wouldn't help either. On a side note, wonder where things are at with Montanna telling the Feds they no longer have a say about this stuff in their state? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted November 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) I need glasses As in it is 25.5 with the functional fold? You'd only be illegal if you removed the stock at the functional fold. Feds measure length with the stock extended. I guess the legal technical way might be to remove the total stock making it dis-functional and then the fixing or whatever to the folding end at the rear. I can't see why removing a carrier is not just as technically disfunctioning. Unless there is something I can't see, I could probably snap the full stock on that kel tech and have it operational much faster than installing the carrier in my saiga. Yeah, I know, but that would make sense and regulations are required to not make sense. Edited November 20, 2009 by my762buzz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) <P>Just get an OPINION letter from the ATF and ask about switching stock's and explaining the finished OAL will still be 26+ inches.<BR></P> Edited November 21, 2009 by YouWontHearItComing Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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