carpy 0 Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 new member and in need of help. got a saiga 12 used, cleaned it good and got to the range. I used 2.75 shells 5 shoot with 1.25 ounze powder. the gun cycles properly but seems to be hitting the back of the trunion pretty hard. I turned the gas adjuster all the way in then turn back to the first click and still hitting the back of gun hard. what other adjustment I am missing in order to avoid hitting the back of it. One thing that I noticed is that the long rod that goes in the gas chamber is not threaded all the way in the slide part. there are at least 5 threads showing, is that normal? Do I have weak recoil springs? Here is some info about gun. Made in 2000 with 4 ports holes in cylinder bore. Thank you for any help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Star Arms 2,047 Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 new member and in need of help. got a saiga 12 used, cleaned it good and got to the range. I used 2.75 shells 5 shoot with 1.25 ounze powder. the gun cycles properly but seems to be hitting the back of the trunion pretty hard. I turned the gas adjuster all the way in then turn back to the first click and still hitting the back of gun hard. what other adjustment I am missing in order to avoid hitting the back of it. One thing that I noticed is that the long rod that goes in the gas chamber is not threaded all the way in the slide part. there are at least 5 threads showing, is that normal? Do I have weak recoil springs? Here is some info about gun. Made in 2000 with 4 ports holes in cylinder bore. Thank you for any help. Threads showing are not normal, and the extra length could be causing the bolt carrier to strike the rear trunnion. I suggest you stop shooting the weapon, take your gun to a gunsmith, and have the rod properly seated. WS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Welcome to the forum. I suspect your Saiga is already broken in, so that probably won't be a problem. Someone asked the same question here. That thread will give you some insight. Be warned though, the thread discusses using a silicone buffer to help reduce bolt and trunnion wear. Many folks don't like buffers in Saiga shotguns because they often cause feeding problems, especially in new (non-broken in) guns. Many find removing the buffer solves the problem on their gun. Mine is a homemade version that's thinner and "squishy-er" so it can be compressed to almost nothing. If you DO decide to get a buffer, I'd recommend the blue Blackjack one. It's much softer than the black and while that's not an issue for the rifle, with a shotgun you're dealing with much less overtravel of the bolt and installing a buffer will limit the overtravel even moreso, which can leads to problems for some guns. Mainly FTFs. Here's mine, made from a gel insole. It's had about 2,000 rounds through it so far without a hitch: Adding a stronger spring is an option too, I suppose. If you haven't already done so, I'd highly recommend getting a gunfixer adjustable plug. That would probably solve your problems by itself. I run a buffer AND a plug, but that's overkill (and some might say foolish to run a buffer at all, but that's ok). Hope this helps. Corbin *Edit* I forgot to mention...... Having SOME threads visible in front of your bolt carrier is normal. The extension piston that screws in there (the part that goes into the gas tube) is meant to be a little flexible. Not locked into the carrier rock solid. I just took this pic of mine: Edited November 21, 2009 by Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Star Arms 2,047 Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Just to reiterate. It sounds like the rod on your gun is screwed out too far. I would hate to hear that the assembly has come apart on you during a session at the range. You can always use a buffer once you are sure everything is in good working order, but first make sure the gun is safe. WS 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HillBilly2 9 Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Your gun is over gassed right now. A 1 1/4 oz load of #5 shot is most likely a high brass load. You probably need to adjust the gas plug properly. Set the gas plug to 1 and see if the issue goes away. The #2 position is for the cheap 1 & 1 1/8 oz loads. You might read this thread: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=262 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
carpy 0 Posted November 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Corbin That's exactly how mine looks like with threads showing like that. While cleaning the gun I noticed that the rear recoil spring is deform to a point that looks like is a bit shorter than the front one. I am going to try to post some pictures if i figured how to do it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
carpy 0 Posted November 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 I screwed the gas plug all the way in, then retract to the first click point. the gas plug is almost completely in and still was hitting the back of the gun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
carpy 0 Posted November 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 How can I post pictures. I tried the search to learn how to do it but nothing found. need help please Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121 Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) To Post Pictures: Hit add reply. Hit icon "insert image" 2 to the right of the "smily face". Paste address of image in box. Hit insert image. Edited November 21, 2009 by TO THE FLOOR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
carpy 0 Posted November 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 ok here are the pictures. Look close at the rear of the spring and rear of gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
carpy 0 Posted November 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
carpy 0 Posted November 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 here is one picture of the gas rod. take note about exposed threads Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DyLonX5 3 Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 It sure sounds and looks like your gas rod is not set to the proper length. Here is all that is showing on mine. I suggest you stop shooting the weapon, take your gun to a gunsmith, and have the rod properly seated. WS I agree with this as well. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thealmightysam 2 Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 here is one picture of the gas rod. take note about exposed threads I know AKs can be pretty variable, but I'm going to agree with the consensus - that seems like an awful lot of exposed threads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 If his has too many exposed threads, than mine must be excessively exposed. It came from CGW though, and I suspect they go through it to ensure everything is up to par, considering they're the official warranty folks for these things. It DOES sound like you're overgassed though. A gunfixer plug would be the first thing I'd suggest you get. I love mine. Corbin 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
carpy 0 Posted November 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 well it seems that the rod is a little to far out, then how can I screw it in, it won't turn at all. second did you see the pictures showing the spring? Is it normal for the spring to be collapsed the way it is? any answer will be appriciated Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DyLonX5 3 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 No that is not normal for the spring to be like that. I don't think it will affect the function of the gun but you might want to look for a replacement cause it won't be good if it breaks the coils back there. As for screwing in the gas rod, I don't know. I know the two indentations on the bolt carrier are holding the gas rod in place. I think you have to drill them out? to be able to replace/adjust the gas rod. It was in the thread about a guy breaking the rod not long ago. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waltham_41 52 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 My bolt rod is showing as much thread as any showed in this thread so far, and I can barely see where the bolt carrier has hit the trunion, and that was most likely from the couple of times I have shot 3 inch shells on gas setting number 2 by accident when I first got the shotty. IMO I dont think the amount of threads showing is your problem. Now your spring collapsing on the end may be an entirely different matter. I would look there first. Good luck on figuring it out, and post what it turns out to be so the next guy can learn from you 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Star Arms 2,047 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 It sure sounds and looks like your gas rod is not set to the proper length. Here is all that is showing on mine. I suggest you stop shooting the weapon, take your gun to a gunsmith, and have the rod properly seated. WS I agree with this as well. I was going to post an image of bolt carrier (piston) rods from some of my guns, but Dylan has already done an excellent job. There is no way your carrier rod should be showing five threads. This could have been the previous owners attempt to adjust the gun for a particular load, or it may just be that the rod has worked its way out with time. No way to know why it is where it is, but you are obviously encountering problems as a result. I have fired thousands of rounds through one of my guns and hundreds through others and have never encountered the problem you have described. If you can safely screw the bolt carrier (piston) rod back in and secure it, I recommend that you do so. If you do not feel comfortable working on the gun - and that is perfectly OK, take it to a gunsmith. For the record, I routinely work on S12 gas systems - and I have never encountered an "overgassed" gun. On setting 1, the gas should effectively be cut off with the force of the recoil alone driving the bolt back to eject the shell. If your shells wont eject on setting 1, go to setting 2. Your gun may or may not have other issues, but unless you first eliminate the obvious issue, namely that your bolt carrier piston rod is extended too far out causing your bolt carrier to move too far back striking the trunnion, you are likely to continue experiencing problems. There is a great deal of well meaning advice on this forum. Unfortunately not all of the advice is well informed. Good luck. WS 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hammer 15 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 (edited) I screwed the gas plug all the way in, then retract to the first click point. the gas plug is almost completely in and still was hitting the back of the gun Yes, but are you sure that plug is position 1? When you screw it all in and then back, first position could be also 2. Get a Gunfixers plug. Edited November 22, 2009 by Hammer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 (edited) The threads on the carrier are the least likely problem unless it shows evidance that the locking pins been driven out and tampered with. The puck is only going to travel so far in the bore of the gas block. As you screw in the adjuster plug, if you don't see the carrier moving back when the plug is bottomed out in the gas block then you have clearance. If the carrier piston was out too far, as you tighen the gas adjuster plug it would be forcing the carrier back and the bolt wouldn't lock up. I would see how many gas ports you have, and or if someone has added or enlarged the ports. Two basic fixes are Gunfixrs plug that reduces the amount of available gas, or a heavier front return spring from a 1911 which requires more force to compress. A buffer might help keep the rear trunion from getting the shit beat out of it, but it's not a fix for a over-gassed gun. By all means, don't shoot slugs or heavy loads until you get the root cause corrected. Edited November 22, 2009 by 6500rpm 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hammer 15 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 Here is rods from my guns. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 I agree that if the peen divits aren't drilled out and you can't screw/unscrew the piston rod, that the source of your problem might be something else. I didn't think about seeing if the carrier moved when you screwed in the plug all the way. If it does, then you definitely have the piston rod out too far. Good cal 6500rpm. I'd really like to hear from Cadiz Gun Works or Tromix, or another business member on this matter. While many of us know the Saiga system well enough, I doubt many of us have ran into as many variances in the system as these guys do. Is there a possibility that the spring and guilde might have, at one time been from something like a Saiga 308 or some other caliber? I don't have a Saiga rifle, so it's just a guess. Does it have the ejection port "shutter" on the spring guide rod? Corbin 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Star Arms 2,047 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 It sure sounds and looks like your gas rod is not set to the proper length. Here is all that is showing on mine. I suggest you stop shooting the weapon, take your gun to a gunsmith, and have the rod properly seated. WS I agree with this as well. I was going to post an image of bolt carrier (piston) rods from some of my guns, but Dylan has already done an excellent job. There is no way your carrier rod should be showing five threads. This could have been the previous owners attempt to adjust the gun for a particular load, or it may just be that the rod has worked its way out with time. No way to know why it is where it is, but you are obviously encountering problems as a result. I have fired thousands of rounds through one of my guns and hundreds through others and have never encountered the problem you have described. If you can safely screw the bolt carrier (piston) rod back in and secure it, I recommend that you do so. If you do not feel comfortable working on the gun - and that is perfectly OK, take it to a gunsmith. For the record, I routinely work on S12 gas systems - and I have never encountered an "overgassed" gun. On setting 1, the gas should effectively be cut off with the force of the recoil alone driving the bolt back to eject the shell. If your shells wont eject on setting 1, go to setting 2. Your gun may or may not have other issues, but unless you first eliminate the obvious issue, namely that your bolt carrier piston rod is extended too far out causing your bolt carrier to move too far back striking the trunnion, you are likely to continue experiencing problems. There is a great deal of well meaning advice on this forum. Unfortunately not all of the advice is well informed. Good luck. WS 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
carpy 0 Posted November 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 to Hammer yes the gas plug was turned all the way in(seated all in) then turned back maybe 1/16 of an inch to the first click which happen to be number position 1, I even shot the gun with the gas plug all the way in (close position) and still was hitting the back of the gun (trunnion), was using 2 3/4 shell 1 1/4 ounze powder and shot #5. I posted some pictures, go and look at them pay attention to the spring ones toward the back. to 6500, the dibets on the rod have not been tampered at all they are intact. also I posted pictures of the rod. I would like to hear comments from Cadiz Gun Works or Tromix if possible. Thank you very much Carpy by the way is there a way to fix the rear trunnion of the gun it really got hammered bad, I also posted pictures of the rear of the gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Razorback 72 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 The distance from the end of the bolt carrier to the end of the gas rod is 3.4". see photo. If this distance is longer: 1: The adjustable gas plug will not screw in all of the way if you hold the bolt closed and try to screw in the gas plug. 2:The gun will be slightly out of battery on the 1 setting which will will reduce the gas pressure, but will allow the gun to fire More normally on setting 2. 3: You will observe that there is way too much recoil with alll loads being shot. This is due to the overly long rod being smashed into the rear trunion. If you don't have something to make this measurement with, please take the advice above and take it to a Gunsmith for adjustment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 If it's been hammered real bad the top cover will fit very loose (excessive slop front to back). If that's not the case, nothing to worry about-the rear trunion rivits on the S12 are pretty beefy and take a fair amount of abuse as long as you haven't egged the holes in the reciver. Have you pulled the gas plug out and checked how many gas port holes you have yet? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 (edited) Have you pulled the gas plug out and checked how many gas port holes you have yet? I believe he said it was a 4 hole 2002 model. *Edit* To the OP: If you don't have a caliper, and just use a regular ruler, 3.4" would be approx 3 and 13/32, or just under 3 and 7/16. That's what mine is. Edited November 23, 2009 by Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 I would give the gunfixer gas plug a shot. If it is overgassed thats exacly what it was made for. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
carpy 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 Razorback Measured rod like you said. The gas rod measures about 3 7/16 or just under 3 1/2 inches, so I guess the rod is properly seated. Corbin is a 4 hole and 2000 model year. I believe my problem is all related to weak or bad recoil springs, look at the pictures I posted and tell me what you think. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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