Back to irons.

[sailor 6]

Here is a question kind of outside the military grade rear sights. I recently sold my father's 1894 winchester, with a Lyman Tang peep sight - for irons, my favorite. Anyone even considered such to get that "best" sight radius? I realize probably none quite like it made for AK's, but the #2 Marlin Tang sight (short base) looks like it could be fitted, with some effort. As to durability, due to the fold-down design, it should not interfere with the dust cover removal, and mine was like new after 111 years. My Saiga has similar balistics to the '94, also. Just a question, not a proposal.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Well I ended up ordering the Kreb's sights. It was either that or Mjo $6 price difference. Kreb's website was easier to navigate so he got my money. Hopefully it will be here soon, my rifle should be back in early March, it's an x39 I sent off to get Cerakote'ed. Can't wait to see it in action and hope the aperture sight works better for me.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

You done good man. The mojo doesn't keep the ballistics comp of the rear sight block the krebs does. Ive got a mojo Im still trying to sell.

[leadslinger 37]

Finally got intouch with these guys. 60.00 for front fiber optic still use AK sight tool. I am going to call monday and get more detail info. Still it would be what i am looking for and no one else seems to offer one.

 

http://www.apwcogan.com/Fiberoptics.htm

[photoshooter 5]

There's a new youtube video by AK47nut featuring the Meprolight AK sights. Nothing earth-shattering, just a quickie vid. Check out his channel, he also just posted one about the new American made Palm 30 round mags.

Edited February 20, 2010 by photoshooter

[leadslinger 37]

I not necessarily interested in night sight as first priority. I want to improve my front daylight sight picture thats why i am looking at a fiber optic. I haven't been able to find any other than this one out there.

[dannytoro 3]

...When I first got my Saiga, the first addition was a hi rise side mount scope rail with a small adjustable Tasco. In practice, it was not much of improvement to the groups. But I often find myself detaching the mount and glassing the brush for deer and hogs with it. The open factory sights are fine to take the shot with. I have to admit, after using a Marlin with peeps sights for decades, I'd be more interested in going that route. And continue using the side mount as a cheap and easy to carry spotting device....

[JBski 6]

I like my Mojo's, they work pretty well.

 

 

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Yes do work well at the range you zero them for but unlike rear sights that can be set for range using the slider you find yourself guessing. Ive used the mojo and its a good improvement except for that one shortcoming, wish they had taken a hint from Krebs and allowed use of the slider. Nice group btw

[Reverendfranz 160]

Here is a question kind of outside the military grade rear sights. I recently sold my father's 1894 winchester, with a Lyman Tang peep sight - for irons, my favorite. Anyone even considered such to get that "best" sight radius? I realize probably none quite like it made for AK's, but the #2 Marlin Tang sight (short base) looks like it could be fitted, with some effort. As to durability, due to the fold-down design, it should not interfere with the dust cover removal, and mine was like new after 111 years. My Saiga has similar balistics to the '94, also. Just a question, not a proposal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That looks like a great idea, to me, if you like that style of sight. as long as the height matches a front sight you can use. The angle of the tang is different so you would have to add material or a set screw to get the sight post to stand up perpendicular to the bore, but other than that, it looks like it would just be a matter of narrowing the base and cutting it to the length of the ak tang, and running the stock screw through it. Personally, while i like those sights, and think it would work well, i just think they look out of place on an ak. But, whatever works for you, and its a damn sound idea.

 

 

Wouldnt mind seeing a crazy looking AK target rifle, either, hahah.

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2010 by ReverendFranz

[BuzzKillin 21]

I'm all about irons. Prefer them up to 150 yards for sure, and I think any self respecting AK person should train with them as much as possible. That being said, I've also started using my POSP for longer range shooting, and recently was hitting a 1.5 ft. diameter metal target at 400 yards about 9-10 times with the scope. I couldn't even see the target with the naked eye. For anything past 200 yards, I think magnification is a must if you want any consistency. In any 'serious' situation, you don't want to be firing 3 shots just to get a bearing on your target.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Having made perhaps every mistake possible Ive realized how important good irons are to a battle rifle. Some will think me out of line here and a fool but Ive been worse in my life.

 

I watch so many people making a "sniper" rifle out of a battle rifle, some without irons at all and I have to wonder why the role of a battle rifle is so despised. The rifle is about the least of the matters needed for a sniper, field craft being paramount in the role as its not that hard to hit a man sized target fatally. Of course I am not refering to the exceptional true god gifted marksmen who are few and far in between and find their place as snipers. Remember Sgt.York used irons, good irons and became a legend.

 

A good battle rifle above all must be almost indestructible, fast to target, easy to reload, fast to clear malfs in the dark (field strip), accurate enough to stop a man at reasonable ranges, and powerful enough to reduce cover into concealment. Sub MOA groups are not even a consideration as I doubt the target cares that it was hit in the liver and lungs with successive shots. Heck the adrenaline alone is going to turn that sub-moa wonder into a 6MOA beater in a crisis situation and god help the man with mud or worse on his now useless optics and no recourse.

 

I am not disparaging long range marksmanship, I think its so valuable a skill that everyone should be able to dependably hit a target at several hundred yards under any weather conditions. That is the role of my Bolt rifle not my 308 Saiga, it's proud role is battle rifle and it does wonderful and glorious things. Though I may have not understood these things before at least I do now thanks to some very patient veterans who don't mind educating others. Thanks to them Ive found my aging eyesight less of an issue than I once thought.

 

So to all you guys who build remarkable skill with the lowly irons, well done and may the only thing you must shoot be paper or supper.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Rhodes1968

[sailor 6]

I find that the Saiga 7.62 is more capable than I am, so I do use all three systems, as appropriate. Irons are the basic, fail-safe, reliable sight - but only for 150/200 yards max. The carbine is more capable than that, so I do have a Red Dot, and a 4x32 scope set for quick release. Makes all the difference beyond 200 yards. I also like a bipod for steadiness, though a sling while using irons is almost as good. As long as I can get the scope off and out of my way in a second or two, I don't consider it in any way a problem (and it does hold zero - so far).

[sailor 6]

ReverendFranz - Thanks for the comment on a Lyman peep sight. The info I got from Lyman indicates the #2 Marlin model on their web site would work with just an angled shim to get the vertical angle correct (set at 19.5 degrees, and the Saiga tang is more like 9 degrees. Also, the exposed Saiga tang is long enough for the short-base Marlin tang mount (base hole spacing is .830")without any modification. Folded, it is out of the way, and the stock iron rear leaf sight is still in place. I guess I will just have to try that - time and funds permitting.

[leadslinger 37]

i guess i will just have to get new glasses. I went with the Krebs rear peep. no real complaints. It's that darn front sight! My glasses broke some time ago and i have been muddling along just fine. I keep forgetting to get new ones. My handgun front sight is a little fuzzy nothing that i can't adjust to get good shots on target. My 10/22 has those hi viz fiber optic three dot set up so i don't really have to focus on the silhouette of the front sight so much. I also have a scope for those 100 yard shots so no real issue. My 1911 Swedish Mauser has the MOJO Micro peep rear and their peep front. This way you are just looking thru 2 circles.

 

The Saiga front is a whole new can of worms. I have been to the range three separate times dialing in the front sight. I switched all my hand guard and stocks back and forth until the light bulb went off. You know that AH Ha!!! moment.

 

I found that if i put the front sight on the white back ground of the 50 yard back stop i could get a sharp silhouette of the front sight. Then if i maintain intense concentration i could slowly raise the sight over the 100yd target and bingo bullseye I was able to repeat 5 separate times. then the sight gets blurry and i have been trying to compensate for that blur. The blur is not consistent and my shots start to wander around the target.

 

I have now been able to repeat this process on two separate occasions. I know now that new glasses are the order of the day.

 

can't say enough about this weapon I just gets better each time i shot it. I have perma grin.

 

 

this Homer Simpson moment brought you by........... Daaaaooohhhhhp! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Having made perhaps every mistake possible Ive realized how important good irons are to a battle rifle. Some will think me out of line here and a fool but Ive been worse in my life.

 

I watch so many people making a "sniper" rifle out of a battle rifle, some without irons at all and I have to wonder why the role of a battle rifle is so despised. The rifle is about the least of the matters needed for a sniper, field craft being paramount in the role as its not that hard to hit a man sized target fatally. Of course I am not refering to the exceptional true god gifted marksmen who are few and far in between and find their place as snipers. Remember Sgt.York used irons, good irons and became a legend.

 

A good battle rifle above all must be almost indestructible, fast to target, easy to reload, fast to clear malfs in the dark (field strip), accurate enough to stop a man at reasonable ranges, and powerful enough to reduce cover into concealment. Sub MOA groups are not even a consideration as I doubt the target cares that it was hit in the liver and lungs with successive shots. Heck the adrenaline alone is going to turn that sub-moa wonder into a 6MOA beater in a crisis situation and god help the man with mud or worse on his now useless optics and no recourse.

 

I am not disparaging long range marksmanship, I think its so valuable a skill that everyone should be able to dependably hit a target at several hundred yards under any weather conditions. That is the role of my Bolt rifle not my 308 Saiga, it's proud role is battle rifle and it does wonderful and glorious things. Though I may have not understood these things before at least I do now thanks to some very patient veterans who don't mind educating others. Thanks to them Ive found my aging eyesight less of an issue than I once thought.

 

So to all you guys who build remarkable skill with the lowly irons, well done and may the only thing you must shoot be paper or supper.

 

 

+1 million

 

For a Kalashnikov-type firearm I prefer a 7.62x39 to a .308 for general use as a battle rifle, but otherwise I completely agree.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Having made perhaps every mistake possible Ive realized how important good irons are to a battle rifle. Some will think me out of line here and a fool but Ive been worse in my life.

 

I watch so many people making a "sniper" rifle out of a battle rifle, some without irons at all and I have to wonder why the role of a battle rifle is so despised. The rifle is about the least of the matters needed for a sniper, field craft being paramount in the role as its not that hard to hit a man sized target fatally. Of course I am not refering to the exceptional true god gifted marksmen who are few and far in between and find their place as snipers. Remember Sgt.York used irons, good irons and became a legend.

 

A good battle rifle above all must be almost indestructible, fast to target, easy to reload, fast to clear malfs in the dark (field strip), accurate enough to stop a man at reasonable ranges, and powerful enough to reduce cover into concealment. Sub MOA groups are not even a consideration as I doubt the target cares that it was hit in the liver and lungs with successive shots. Heck the adrenaline alone is going to turn that sub-moa wonder into a 6MOA beater in a crisis situation and god help the man with mud or worse on his now useless optics and no recourse.

 

I am not disparaging long range marksmanship, I think its so valuable a skill that everyone should be able to dependably hit a target at several hundred yards under any weather conditions. That is the role of my Bolt rifle not my 308 Saiga, it's proud role is battle rifle and it does wonderful and glorious things. Though I may have not understood these things before at least I do now thanks to some very patient veterans who don't mind educating others. Thanks to them Ive found my aging eyesight less of an issue than I once thought.

 

So to all you guys who build remarkable skill with the lowly irons, well done and may the only thing you must shoot be paper or supper.

 

 

+1 million

 

For a Kalashnikov-type firearm I prefer a 7.62x39 to a .308 for general use as a battle rifle, but otherwise I completely agree.

 

That is why I have both, honestly I more fun with the x39, when treated as a battle rifle and not a target rifle it really is a wonderful rifle to shoot and Im finally getting the hang of that rainbow trajectory and that yugo-milsurp is cheap enough but its going fast. As for the 308 I hate throwing half a dollar down range with every shot with the brass it favors. Other than cost 308 is and always has been primarily a battle field round with some very nice ballistics, just not for full-auto. If the money were there, bah if pigs could fly if you know what I mean.

[leadslinger 37]

i agree, I am not looking to make a target rifle out of this one yet at the the same time i want to know that i will be able to hit the same area with regularity. I have the swed 6.5 x 55 for long range accurate shooting. It has been a great hunting and target round for years in Europe. Heck they even take elk with it. It is easy to shoot and very flat trajectory. Now for real heavy hitting my saiga 12 with slugs and an MD drum is tons of fun. Can't say enough about these weapons. I have caught myself longing for the AR a few times but then the actuality of cost hits my logical brain and i realize that for these rifles offer the best all around bang for the buck. Thats why i got into them in the first place.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

After spending two years cleaning and repairing M16s I get sick just looking at them. Heck a toddler could field strip an AK while seen grow men cry the first time they had to fs a Stoner rifle in the rain and mud because.....wait for it.....it wouldn't fire. Ever try to keep mud off all the parts an M16/M4 break down into? It aint a pretty sight. I do hear its a bit easier to use as a club though so there ya go. Meanwhile just for grins you can really tick those guys off by dumping mud into the AK receiver, racking and firing. I loose more friends that way.

 

PS I do NOT do this with my Saiga, that is why they make Egyptian AKs. Who cares if they get score marks in the chamber. But yeah it fun to do when they start talking about MOA at a dry covered range line, bet them $20 they cant do it with that AR. Never had anyone take that one up yet. Dump mud in an AR? But then it wont work! Yeah I know...

Edited April 6, 2010 by Rhodes1968

[billbrasky 0]

Been thinking this over lot lately and discussing it with a couple recently made friends that migrated from Eastern Europe a few years back. They think its a bit odd the compulsion the Americans have about mounting scopes on AKs though after letting them shoot mine they understand it but still think its odd. Surprisingly this was the first x39 they ever used having been issued 5.45s. The recoil surprised them a bit so I let them shoot the 308 and the jaws dropped. But I digress. They pointed out very strongly that in combat and training that rifle takes a real beating and showed me how (they used their own rifles wasn't lending mine for that) and I just cringed, a scope or red dot would have to be very high quality or a PSO to take that. Now that is just their and now my opinion.

 

We live a at great time for options in sighting and so thought a thread on the subject may lend some info for all of us perhaps if people are interested. The more I hang with these guys the more I agree with them, MBRs are meant for irons and very few people have whats needed to be effective snipers and use scopes. Here my contribution hope you guys will offer yours;

 

I like a rear aperture sight even though mud may have to pushed out from time to time. I see nothing better than the Krebs that retains the elevation system from the AK. Krebs Range Report

Krebs is telling me the 1000M is the one for Saiga anyone know different?

 

For the front sight a low light stripe-post from XS more accurate than the big dot and still easy to see and fast to use.

 

So any interest perusing this matter? Lot more I can add but rather hear from you guys.

 

I wouldnt bet my life on any red dot or scope being there in 100 % operation all the time, so much so that i neglect using my irons.

 

I like irons. I dont even have red dots or scopes yet on any of my battle rifles (7.62x39 converted saiga, sks, fal, 223 saiga converted). I do have a kvar mount, and will be buying a kalinka mount and an aimpoint.

 

Red dots and scopes are great, but they are shall we say a nice accessory, not a crutch to lean on. It might not always be there. I think i could abuse the hell out of an aimpoint, and it will hold up. But i would not bet my life on it.

 

In the west we can buy a nice military grade sight with a few days to a weeks wages. Said red dot or scope will last 10-20 years. Hell in an aimpoint the battery will last 5-10 years. If you have the cash it makes sense, its great for low light, and quick acquisition.

 

I know my guns good enough that if i broke my sight, and it was in a riot, or revolution etc, i could detach the sight in 1.5-2 seconds flat, and shoot my irons and not be the least bit affected by it.

 

Maybe they think its weird americans have the money to put a $120 mount, and $500-$700 optic on a $300 gun. Our troops use them on the m4. I want military grade stuff, and i like that i can buy it for a modest price.

 

I can see how if they are in the ukraine or solvenia and make $12,000 per year, they cannot spend $700 on an aimpoint, and think its extravegant but they are from a different country, and almost a different era, as they were likely born just after the fall of communism. They didnt have many western things until they were 10-11-12, and then it was rare, and beyond their means, and hard to attain and get hands on even if they did have the means.

[billbrasky 0]

I use some Meprolight night sights that drop right in. Small enough to be accurate and I can still see fine during the day. I don't play well with peep sights and wanted tritium front and rear and I picked them up for under $100 shipped. Just another option I guess.

 

 

I have trijicon front and rear with ar15 front post with the ace adapter drum. This allows for the skinnier ar15 front post.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Now that is one way of looking at it but these guys aren't really poor by US standards but the mindset from that era most likely stuck as they don't waste a lot of money and stay well below means. They really like the S308 though they think Saiga really has things in there pretty tight to make it work and I agree.

 

Now of course if you know for sure your dot or scope is busted you can change it out quickly but I think it more likely the zero would go to hell and that may take some time to determine but to each his own.

 

I guess the point is that I was seeing people take the attitude that a dot or scope is required and that just isn't the case when you maintain a rifle for hopefully never required MBR function. Now as I get into more reloading with the 308 the range is really getting beyond what I can resolve with irons 300m being about the limit without a scope.

 

Anyway learned a lot and hope others did also results being I have really improved my groups on the x39 and 308 and still love the krebs.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

I'm still rockin the factory irons, (SGL21 though so my rear leaf is a 1000m model, not the 300m one, not that it really matters). I'd like to get either the Krebs or tritium insert replacements at some point, but tbh, it's not exactly a priority. I've learned to use the standard irons to get the job done, even in damn low light:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbjAwTm3q3E

 

downrange perspective..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpTIzl3uPTw

 

Of course, I don't expect my "AK", (SGL21-62), to be winning any accuracy contests vs bolt-action rifles or even AR's. I try to practice using the weapon in a manner that reflects the purpose for which it was built... i.e. a MBR meant for ~300m or less, firing at a reasonably high rate, standing unsupported or on the move.

 

ymmv.

Edited April 26, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[jimdigriz 580]

I've learned to use the standard irons to get the job done, even in damn low light

 

Can you elaborate on this a bit?

 

I was telling my wife the other day that one should be able to hit bad guys in low light within the max distance in our house (~25 yards) even without being able to see the front sight post, because with enough practice, one's face automatically goes to the exact place on the stock that lines the eye up with the notch and post. (But she now prefers the rifle with the Aimpoint).

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Its just a matter of getting used to it hes obviously thrown a lot of rounds down range, hope he has a trick to share as I find low light a complete pain without glowing sights.

 

As for hitting something man sized in the dark without using the sights I gotta say its tougher than I remembered it to be and personally I have a Dbl barreled shotty(coach gun) for my wife's "close" work as there is nothing to go wrong and I have never heard of anyone hanging around for the second barrel unless there is already a big hole in them, extra rounds are of course located on the stock. Shaking hands are a given in any situation like this and nothing says you've broken into the wrong house like a 12 gauge discharging buckshot without that warning of racking a round for a pump. The idea of that racking sound scaring away an intruder is all well and good but it also tells them where you are.

 

Some words of caution firing anything like this indoors is going to possibly blow ear drums right out and the flash may blind for a few seconds, closing one eye as you fire will at least help. This is made worse by some muzzle brakes which is why I use a flash hider on my x39 set up for low light. Keep a set of those jelly type ear plugs taped to the stock of your "Oh Hell no" firearm where you will feel them when grasping the weapon and hopefully remember/have time to use them. They insert quickly and may perhaps save your hearing.

 

That's about all I know about shooting firearms as an intentional indoor sport. Good luck

 

Edit:

My wife after reading this has suggested(well strongly suggested) I place a disclaimer on the above, we really are nice people who would never ever shoot an honored guest. However, The Dogs have their own agenda and seem to look forward to the possibility.

 

I just made it worse didn't I...crap....ok she writes all disclaimers from now on.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Rhodes1968

[leadslinger 37]

OK guys still working getting my sight picture repeatable. I have found that the Krebs peep really is the best setup for my eyes. repeatable front sight post elevation is still giving me an issue. I am getting 3 to 4 inch groups at 100 yds if i do my part. There are times that my groups will low if i don't pay attention to my front sight positioning. I am thinking that the xs replacement front sight post will help to eliminate that issue. By that i mean you could put the bottom of the white stripe at the bottom of the circle of the rear peep and hopefully the top of the front will end up at the center line of the circle and still give good filed of view. This way you should Be able to raise the weapon quickly and take consistent shots.

 

I know that under high stress situation all this will be a mute point but for range work i want repeatable sight picture.

 

anyone have one of these setups , opinions and or pic of view through rear with the XS white stripe front sight post?

[christcorp 26]

I personally prefer reflex sights. In my opinion, better than iron and scope sites. No magnification. Mine has 4 different selectable sights: dot, cross hair, cross hair in a circle, and circle with a dot. You can use the sight with one or both eyes open. You can move your head side to side and the sight stays on target. Best of all it has an unlimited distance for eye relief, so you can mount it on top of the rifle or far front on a quad rail forearm. Unlike a scope that has mandatory eye relief. It's very small and I consider it the best of both worlds. And if by chance the batter goes dead, it can be removed in less than 30 seconds if you need the iron sights. I would never put a scope; especially with magnification; on an assault style rifle. Not my saiga, AK, or AR. But reflex sights are fantastic. And the price ranges from $50 to hundreds of dollars.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

OK guys still working getting my sight picture repeatable. I have found that the Krebs peep really is the best setup for my eyes. repeatable front sight post elevation is still giving me an issue. I am getting 3 to 4 inch groups at 100 yds if i do my part. There are times that my groups will low if i don't pay attention to my front sight positioning. I am thinking that the xs replacement front sight post will help to eliminate that issue. By that i mean you could put the bottom of the white stripe at the bottom of the circle of the rear peep and hopefully the top of the front will end up at the center line of the circle and still give good filed of view. This way you should Be able to raise the weapon quickly and take consistent shots.

 

I know that under high stress situation all this will be a mute point but for range work i want repeatable sight picture.

 

anyone have one of these setups , opinions and or pic of view through rear with the XS white stripe front sight post?

 

Three inch groups at 100yds with unknown ammo isn't something to be real worried about as there is a heck of a lot 3-4MOA AKs out there. If you notice while sighting there is a fuzzy line at midpoint of the circle. Some people see some it some don't keep practicing until the sight lines up naturally. The XS should only improve your low light sighting but hey give it a shot.

 

Appears to me like I wouldn't want you shooting at me.

[leadslinger 37]

Rhodes1968 you were sooo right about the fuzzy center line. went to the range today and bingo bango reliable repeatable placement. Now i just got to get my new glasses and contacts dialed in. Big shit eating grin.

 

I like the idea of the XS post for low light conditions but the cost and the fact that only one side of the sight has the white insert has me still looking.

Edited May 6, 2010 by leadslinger

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Good deal learned about that line at an Appleseed shoot last year. Cannot advise people go to those enough as they are worth so much to your shooting and attitude about those that fought and died for you right to own that rifle.

 

The XS is a good sight and that single side bothers me also as a half turn error is pretty dramatic at 200m. But since this rifle is not going to be making long shots in the dark maybe we make too much of the error. Changing aim point to compensate is no big deal while sight visibility in low light is extremely important.