optics needed for shotgun?

[jimdigriz 580]

I'm planning on getting a Saiga 12 soon. What's the consensus around here about optics on an S-12? Do they really add much in terms of effectiveness? I'm thinking that precise targeting is more necessary for a rifle than a shotgun, but I could have a misconception about the spread of a shotgun's projectiles. What kind of spread could I expect at 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards from 00 buck? (The longest conceivable shot in my house would be 22 yards, and the most likely about 10-15). Also, the extra weight of an optic and its mount might be cumbersome, since I'm planning on loading the gun with the MD Arms drum, which I'm guessing is about 3 pounds loaded. I've got an extra red dot, just not sure whether I should use it. What say you guys?

 

Thanks.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[hobbyshooter 59]

I'm very pleased with the krebs sight system. The HK sight system would work well for home defense also, but the krebs system is easier to install. I also find the HK sight rings to be a bit too large but that's personal preference.

 

I don't think adding another ON/OFF switch to your HD system is worth the bling factory of having an optic. However, I'm not even a fan of weapon lights.

[sapper1371usmc 107]

Optics on a shotgun are overkill imo. Even with slugs, your good to about 100 yards in a smooth bore barrel. I would just get you a set of the Krebs Custom Ghost ring sights. I love mine. Quick target accquistion and will get you accurate shots. I love mine. I cant help you on the buck shot patterns. I rarely shoot buck, mainly just bird and slugs. I can tell you with Cobras Winchoke adapter and an IC choke, I was getting 5 shot 2" group at fifty yards with Federal LE slugs and it could have been better if I was shooting off of a more stable platform and controlled my trigger squeeze a bit better.

[jimdigriz 580]

I would just get you a set of the Krebs Custom Ghost ring sights. I love mine. Quick target accquistion and will get you accurate shots.

 

How well will they work in low light? Shooting in that environment is my primary concern. Also, how do you install the rear aperture? (The front sight installation is obvious).

Edited February 9, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[sapper1371usmc 107]

As your aware, there are no tritim or fiber optics on the KREBS. But with that said, the aperature lets in alot more light than standard AK sights and still allows you to find your front sight post. But lets be honest. If your shooting Buck shot or bird, and are within room/hallway distance, you can pretty much point and shoot. One way the Marine Corps taught me was to grip the handguard with my index finger pointing downrange(parallel to the bbl), and what ever you point at in CQB you will hit. And its true. We trained this way all the time, cause not everybody has optics(only a 1 or 2 per squad). And in any HD situation you should always have a light. Im a cop for right now, and I carry three lights on me at all times while at work. One on the pistol, a small light (surefire G2) for offhand use, and the third is just for backup (usually a maglight). I know you dont plan on having three lights on you at all times, but I do suggest at least one. I like having one attached to the gun, but I also like having one that I can hold so that I dont have to point my gun at the threat just to see that it is a relative. Thats the one downfall to weapon mounted lights, but on a long gun, there is really not much of a choice.

[jimdigriz 580]

As your aware, there are no tritim or fiber optics on the KREBS.

 

It takes an AR front post...shouldn't be too hard to round up a tritium post.

 

 

But with that said, the aperature lets in alot more light than standard AK sights and still allows you to find your front sight post. But lets be honest. If your shooting Buck shot or bird, and are within room/hallway distance, you can pretty much point and shoot. One way the Marine Corps taught me was to grip the handguard with my index finger pointing downrange(parallel to the bbl), and what ever you point at in CQB you will hit. And its true. We trained this way all the time, cause not everybody has optics(only a 1 or 2 per squad). And in any HD situation you should always have a light. Im a cop for right now, and I carry three lights on me at all times while at work. One on the pistol, a small light (surefire G2) for offhand use, and the third is just for backup (usually a maglight). I know you dont plan on having three lights on you at all times, but I do suggest at least one. I like having one attached to the gun, but I also like having one that I can hold so that I dont have to point my gun at the threat just to see that it is a relative. Thats the one downfall to weapon mounted lights, but on a long gun, there is really not much of a choice.

 

I have motion sensor activated lights in the house that activate as someone walks down the hall, through the living room or kitchen. Hopefully that will obviate the need for a weapon light, which makes a nice target for the bad guy.

 

I may try your targeting method. So, do you just shoot with the middle finger, while pointing with the index?

[sapper1371usmc 107]

No you pull the trigger with the index finger of your firing hand. You use the index finger of your support hand while your gripping the handguard

[YARP 300]

Although I don't think optics are necessary for the S-12, they are nice. A red dot (I like EOtech, a trijicon RMR would be nice if I had the money) is great for CQB as well as faster follow up shots at longer distance (slugs). Point shooting will work great with buckshot like sapper said, however this takes a little more practice other than standing at the range and shooting in one direction.

Red dots are great for low visibility shooting. Always give yourself the advantage if you can by adding technology, but remember when you become dependent on technology you become just as useless as a red dot without battery's(hence why I wish I had the trijicon RMR).

So optics useless in my opinion? no, do you need a scope? No, if your really that crazy about zoom options get an EOtech with a 3x and flip to side mount.

Again are they necessary nope but if you have an extra laying around I don't see why you couldn't try it out to see if you like it.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

I used to run dots and eo Techs om my shotty... i have found the best optic for a shotty is the MK 1 eyeball....

[YARP 300]

I used to run dots and eo Techs om my shotty... i have found the best optic for a shotty is the MK 1 eyeball....

Lucky bastard..... wish I had had a special red dot eyeball.....that has night vision......and thermal vision......and special see through hot lady's clothes X-ray vision.....Damn

LOL!

[sapper1371usmc 107]

Although I don't think optics are necessary for the S-12, they are nice. A red dot (I like EOtech, a trijicon RMR would be nice if I had the money) is great for CQB as well as faster follow up shots at longer distance (slugs). Point shooting will work great with buckshot like sapper said, however this takes a little more practice other than standing at the range and shooting in one direction.

Red dots are great for low visibility shooting. Always give yourself the advantage if you can by adding technology, but remember when you become dependent on technology you become just as useless as a red dot without battery's(hence why I wish I had the trijicon RMR).

So optics useless in my opinion? no, do you need a scope? No, if your really that crazy about zoom options get an EOtech with a 3x and flip to side mount.

Again are they necessary nope but if you have an extra laying around I don't see why you couldn't try it out to see if you like it.

 

 

The point method works but does require practice like with anything involving the use of a gun. I could get consistent, accurate shots with an M16A4 in CQB distances. I still believe optics are overkill on a shotgun, and as such, I do not plan on running any on mine. What you run on yours is up to you. I think that if you are going to run an optic then make sure that you get something that will hold up to the abuse of a shotgun, such as a Trijicon Reflex or RMR. Now, I am now in the USCG Reserves and we run reflexes on our 870's, so i do have experience running shottys with optics. But in the end it is all up to the user and how much money you want to spend.

 

Note: forgot to mention, a PK-AS would also make a fine choice if you want to use an optic, and that way your irons are also available as a back up.

[Etek 32]

A red dot sight can be a great aid when hunting non moving small game with shot or larger game with slugs or Buck.

For home defense you don't need one except for psychological effect....but you are already holding a shotgun so...

[superA 289]

I agree, from my limited experience with a shotgun even iron sights are almost a waste less the use of slugs. I have shot a couple thousand rounds of clay and it's weird but you really don't aim so much as point and get cocky. Shotguns are magical like that.

[jimdigriz 580]

I agree, from my limited experience with a shotgun even iron sights are almost a waste less the use of slugs. I have shot a couple thousand rounds of clay and it's weird but you really don't aim so much as point and get cocky. Shotguns are magical like that.

 

That brings me back to one of my original questions: What kind of spread can I expect from the projectiles at various distances? Is there a rule of thumb per yard or per five yards?

[superA 289]

I agree, from my limited experience with a shotgun even iron sights are almost a waste less the use of slugs. I have shot a couple thousand rounds of clay and it's weird but you really don't aim so much as point and get cocky. Shotguns are magical like that.

 

That brings me back to one of my original questions: What kind of spread can I expect from the projectiles at various distances? Is there a rule of thumb per yard or per five yards?

 

 

Others can answer that better I'm sure. For clay it seemed the sweet spot was number 6 as far as heavy shot at a decent pattern out a distance. This was with a 22 inch barrel with a screw in full choke. With the lighter stuff we may put holes in it but it wouldn't really bust it. This was all Wal-Mart bulk pack, federal being the most consistent. For SD I don't think you will have a problem if using 00 and you really learn to kinda point and pull, not much aiming with the eyes comes into play. Clay just helps with getting used to that on a moving target without thinking about it much. It becomes reflex and we were never that good.

[3ac6ucb 24]

As your aware, there are no tritim or fiber optics on the KREBS.

 

It takes an AR front post...shouldn't be too hard to round up a tritium post.

 

That's what I did. Got an XS dot post in mine.

Edited February 10, 2010 by 3ae6ucb

[DrtyHarry 0]

What do you think about putting folding HK sights (w/tritium) on a Chaos extended quad rail?

 

Will they work with the 13" of rail space that I'll have? I want to put an EOtech sight on as well, figured the folding versions would work well with the red dot. Thoughts?

 

DH

[thewogster 0]

What do you think about putting folding HK sights (w/tritium) on a Chaos extended quad rail?

 

Will they work with the 13" of rail space that I'll have? I want to put an EOtech sight on as well, figured the folding versions would work well with the red dot. Thoughts?

 

DH

 

I think it depends on what type of shooter you are and what your using the gun for. If your using it to hunt and are good with iron sights, stick with that. With moving game I'm more accurate with a red dot, so I went with a C-more STS. Mainly because of the 3.5 MOA, and it's lower height.

 

I think the EOtech is a great optic but is a bit large and does sit a little higher. I would also take a look at the Burris, I didn't chose that one (wasn't sure of the stated "paralax free to 50 yards"), but have heard a lot of good things about it. The Trijicon RMR is a bit pricy, the LED was great, but after seeing the Dual Illumination in person I deciced to stay away from it. I wasn't impressed with the dot at all - too large and wasn't impressed with its paralax either.

 

I shoot slugs between 50 and 100 yards and the STS is a great optic for me. It looks good on the gun as well. It wasn't too expensive, but isn't a cheap one either. Really like that I can get to the battery without removing it from the gun.

Edited February 11, 2010 by thewogster

[Tsm002 5]

I run an aimpoint micro on my saiga 20 on a BKP-02 russian side mount. Micro is sitting in a low mount from LaRue that was kind of a bitch to find, since most of the mounts out there are higher ones for cowitness.

 

Best thing I ever did to the gun. Honestly a good RDS will improve your accuracy and response time far better than the trigger improvement and pistol grip from the conversion. It really will.

 

The micro sits low enough that I can get a VERY solid cheek weld. The battery life is simply ridiculous on those things as well.

 

Primary Arms also makes a MUCH cheaper version that held up on my s20 till i got the real microdot. It has excellent reviews over at barfcom and even from the inglorious basterds over at m4carbine.net. Tough bunch there.

 

As far as magnified optics go? I'm hesitant.

[thewogster 0]

 

As far as magnified optics go? I'm hesitant.

 

 

I'd agree with that, unless you have a fully rifled barrel (Which if there's one out there for a Saiga please let me know) and shooting sabot's at the 100 yards + I think the magnification is a little over the top. It really puts a damper on any close range shooting as well.

[3ac6ucb 24]

What do you think about putting folding HK sights (w/tritium) on a Chaos extended quad rail?

 

Will they work with the 13" of rail space that I'll have? I want to put an EOtech sight on as well, figured the folding versions would work well with the red dot. Thoughts?

 

DH

 

Won't give you that much sight radius. Maybe weld an HK rear sight on the dust cover and put the front sight over the gas block?

 

A tall EOTech on top of an already tall Saiga top rail is going to be really, really high.

[Tsm002 5]

My .02 for the eotech on a saiga:

 

Just use a very low side rail mount, low enough that it obstructs your iron sights. Make sure that it's one that uses a throw lever and not the little set screws.

 

Use the lowest mount possible for your Eotech.

 

If you need to transition to irons just yank the lever and go to stock irons.

 

This also allows for one very bizarre and admittedly obscure application: in the space you save from not using a folding buis you could mount a very compact magnifier. You know, for when you're sniping with buckshot at zombies. Seriously, though, I've wondered if I fold out magnifier would be overkill for slug use. Probably. Just spoiled from using one on an ar. At least this way you could swing from magnified rds to non magnified rds easily and then throw the main lever and go to irons quickly as well. Good for the rainbow six operatives, zombie hunters or indecisive.

[HOWARD COSELL 155]

 

 

That brings me back to one of my original questions: What kind of spread can I expect from the projectiles at various distances? Is there a rule of thumb per yard or per five yards?

 

 

This might help.

http://www.interneta...hotgun_ammo.htm

Edited February 14, 2010 by THE RIPPER

[CoV 0]

i put a tapco ak sight rail and a (cheap) simmons shot dot on the factory optics mount on side of my saiga, it sits over top high enough that i can still use the factory sights and don't need to remove it to clean the sight and it's close enough back that i can see through it comfortably. it's by no means necessary, but it is nice and still fairly accurate despite how high over the barrel it is.

if you're concerned about low light shooting I'd advise u just get some night vision monoculars/goggles. i've seen them for $250 on kalinkaoptics.com. don't have any experience with them but it's something i've been considering for a while.

[Tsm002 5]

If you're going to be doing ANY shooting with NVG's some sort of laser/ IR laser is a MUST. Good luck finding a very good and cheap IR laser. Not commonly available.

 

Try shooting with normal optics/irons with NVG's and you'll see exactly when I'm talking about. You'd be amazed at how much those can distort shit.