7.62 x 39 Def. ammo

[1911vm 0]

Does anyone know what type or make of 7.62 x 39 would be the best CQB defensive ammo? The concerns would over penetrating I.e. sheet rock or other light medium. Thanks

[superA 289]

Probably one of the 123 grain v-max loads.

[mgconnor13 206]

I just picked up some Hornady 123grn V-max in my AK for defensive ammo the other day. It's a lacquer coated steal cased which I think Hornady is importing from a russian company but I would have to double check that. The bullet they are using is a .310 diameter 123grn red polymer tipped V-max with a ballistic co-efficient of .260 and a listed muzzle velocity of 2350 fps. Hornady lists it as a medium game cartridge, I think 2 legged predators fall in that 50-300 pound category. I got a box of 50 for just over $36 at a local gun shop in town. I haven't seen too many other options for defensive ammo in 7.62x39 since there is so much east bloc made ammo and old mil surplus out there on the market. I think the price is reasonable considering how much defensive ammo costs for other popular calibers out there (I cringe ever time I buy defensive ammo for my ARs and 1911). As soon as I can get to the range I'll post my results on how it works in my old warsr-10

 

I was using Wolf 122grn hollow points for along time. Stuff is fairly cheap and it runs great in my wasr-10. I've been through a few hundred rounds of Wolf with out any issues. Grouping are pretty consistent with every batch I've shot and it goes bang every time I pull the trigger. Muzzle flash varies a bit from none to fire balls. The 74 style brake on my gun can produce a lot a muzzle flash and blast. I don't fouling is too bad but it's an AK so I don't really care about fouling.

 

Corbon makes a 125 grn round I don't have any experience with the Corbon round.

 

I'll keep my eyes open for anything else out there I might find. I'll have to look around but I think Hornady is going to release a 52grn 5.45x39mm V-max this year too. If any one has a 74 let me know how that runs in your gun when you get your hands on it.

 

Just remember with any round if it has a enough penetration to go through vital organs it's going to have enough penetration to go through a few walls.

 

Here's a couple pictures of the Hornady V-max, Hornady next to Wolf and just the Wolf round. The Wolf round looks like a FMJ with just a little whole in the tip. Hornady's red tip makes it stand out.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Rusty truck

[eric1785 15]

Would soft points be better then hp or the amax? I would think with the lead exposed on the front it would expand easier? I dont know, maybe its time for some ballistics testing!!!

[superA 289]

Would soft points be better then hp or the amax? I would think with the lead exposed on the front it would expand easier? I dont know, maybe its time for some ballistics testing!!!

 

 

 

SP's are designed to create a steady wound channel while maintaining deep penetration (that's what she said)and holding the bullet together. V-Max and hollow points will fragment violently and cause a lot of tissue damage. SP's are more for hunting when you don't want to ruin meat and may need much more penetration than in a SD scenario.

[mgconnor13 206]

That's a pretty good way to explain the difference between why you would use a SP over a HP. SP peal open slowly as they travel through material. Hollow points almost splatter when they hit target, violently fragmenting to create the biggest would channel possible. Some of the fragments travel deeper into the target but most of the damage is in the first portion of the wound channel. When defending yourself or others you want to inflict as must trauma on your target as possible. Blood loose leading to hypovolemia shock (blood loss leading to a lack of oxygen to the brain) or destroying the central nervous system are the two ways to reliably put some one down. SP rounds don't tear up as much tissue as the travel like a HP does. I'll try to find some pictures of ballistic tests so show you what I mean.

 

 

Found some pictures of gel tests on http://www.brassfetcher.com/762x39mm.html

If you want to look them up. I'm still hunting around for more pictures of ballistic gel tests

 

Here's a link to youtube of some guys shooting ballistic gel with different rounds. There's several short videos. here's the link to the first video

 

Hope this helps every body understand terminal ballistics a little better and how different types of bullets function.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Rusty truck

[superA 289]

That's a pretty good way to explain the difference between why you would use a SP over a HP. SP peal open slowly as they travel through material. Hollow points almost splatter when they hit target, violently fragmenting to create the biggest would channel possible. Some of the fragments travel deeper into the target but most of the damage is in the first portion of the wound channel. When defending yourself or others you want to inflict as must trauma on your target as possible. Blood loose leading to hypovolemia shock (blood loss leading to a lack of oxygen to the brain) or destroying the central nervous system are the two ways to reliably put some one down. SP rounds don't tear up as much tissue as the travel like a HP does. I'll try to find some pictures of ballistic tests so show you what I mean.

 

 

Found some pictures of gel tests on http://www.brassfetcher.com/762x39mm.html

If you want to look them up. I'm still hunting around for more pictures of ballistic gel tests

 

Here's a link to youtube of some guys shooting ballistic gel with different rounds. There's several short videos. here's the link to the first video

 

Hope this helps every body understand terminal ballistics a little better and how different types of bullets function.

 

 

 

That brassfetcher is a good one, they even show the v-max round, which is devastating. Explodes early and get's deep enough to stick. I wish this round was more available.

[mgconnor13 206]

The V-max is pretty nasty. The wound cavity opens up pretty early and is nearly as wide as it is long. The SP went right through the block. All the rounds left nasty wound patterns in the gel. It looks like the V-max opened up and stopped pretty quick compared to the other rounds tested. I'm interested in how various round would preform out of a SBR (I'm thinking about building a shorty in the near future). I'm still hunting for other quality hollow points available in 7.62x39mm

[Frankyoz 15]

There is a few out there, Hornaday, BVAC, Glaser, and Corbon. The Glaser looks pretty cool but have never tried them. From what I read of what you want, you may want to check them out.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Any of them work but for tough hided animal or other such the SP makes more sense. I use Remington Express but that isnt by far the final say I just want all my brass to be the same for reloading when ever I get around to doing it.

[my762buzz 141]

Does anyone know what type or make of 7.62 x 39 would be the best CQB defensive ammo? The concerns would over penetrating I.e. sheet rock or other light medium. Thanks

 

The hornady Vmax bullet was designed for optimum performance in people size animals. Its going to transfer its energy inside of someone efficiently and not waste any energy

by exiting like many other bullets would. The only other ammo I would feel safe in using for no exit CQB is the military classic 8m3 loads.

 

 

 

 

 

 

shot two is with MC

shot three is with Vmax

[Frankyoz 15]

Seriously check out the Glaser safety round. Its a Hollow point round filled with #12 bird shot. Its supposedly creates a pretty savage wound in flesh designed to dump its energy almost upon impact. I guess they tried to get the rounds to Air marshals since it was designed to fragment into pieces with contact of hard surfaces. ALso upon more research I found its actualy a division of Corbon. Anyway a little pricey but if your worried about over penetration definitly should be a serious contender. Plus I like the thought of delivering a small load of birdshot into a target pushed allong by a x39 slug to have it all stop inside the torso as well. That would create a very toxic situation for whomever was hit with one along with the soft tissue damage it sounds very leathal. I could imagine a surgeon trying to dig out HP fragments along with birdshot just thinking WTF lol

[BaronVonBigmeat 0]

I was reading about this myself. I found this article about rifle rounds for home defense a while back. Granted, it is aimed at the 5.56 crowd, but maybe their recommendation of Hornady extrapolates to the 7.62 as well? I'm not sure.

 

Okay, from best to worst:

 

1. Loads using the Nosler 77gr or Hornady 75gr OTM bullet. While these bullets may be slightly less accurate *in some rifles* than the Sierra MK, they offer better wounding capability. These bullets maximize terminal ballistic performance AND they extend fragmentation range over other loads, and even provide *some* fragmentation range from 10" barrels.

 

......

 

Loads To Avoid

 

Anything loaded with a varmint bullet; all varmint bullets in this caliber will underpenetrate from all guns. This means NO VMax bullets (including TAP loads), NO Nosler/Combined Technologies "Ballistic Tip" bullets, and so on. Varmint bullets were designed for animals no larger than 60 lbs., with the lighter bullets being designed for even smaller animals. They are NOT combat bullets, regardless of marketing to the contrary.

 

Any frangible bullet load. Frangible bullets are designed for short-range training, where shooting standard bullets at reactive steel targets would be (more of) a safety hazard. Usually, they are made from powdered lead or tungsten alloy inside a gilding metal jacket. They are designed to disintegrate when striking steel plates, but they are NOT designed to (nor do they accidentally) fragment in flesh.

 

The FBI recommendation for self-defense rounds is 12" I think. It could be more or less, depending on how skinny/fat/muscular your target is and where you hit them. This is why you don't use bird shot--it can create horiffic wounds, but there isn't enough penetration to hit vitals reliably. Your target might die or pass out, but not before shooting back. For the same reason, I have frequently heard that fragmentation rounds are not ideal.

 

But here again, according to Hornady, their V-max TAP does penetrate a full 15", although most of the wound is created between 2"-8".

 

Side note: the steel case is manufactured in Russia, but the rest of the cartridge is made in the US, if I recall correctly.

Edited March 27, 2010 by BaronVonBigmeat

[mgconnor13 206]

I think it's funny how much time and energy is spent on making 5.56/.223 more lethal (M193 worked just fine). I would never consider a .223 varmint round for self defense, the things are just too light. I'm no ballistic genius but I suspect that 7.62x39 is such a big round (weighs twice as much as m855) that it's going to go pretty deep regardless of the bullet construction. I do appreciate the link to the article and there are some valid points brought up.

 

7.62x39 has been reliably putting holes in people decade after decade with out any complaints. I think it's just a matter of choosing the most "ideal" or "best suited" round for the intended job. I have cans and cans of wolf HP I keep around because it's cheap and seems to put decent sized holes in things.

 

<---I'm ok with these results.

<--- good but not my first choice

<--- we can agree this isn't "ideal"

 

I think we all can be guilty of getting caught up in the hunt for the "Magic bullet" that does it all. I know I have and still do at times. There really isn't a perfect bullet out there, only ones that are better at certain things then others. That said the best was to kill some one is by poking a whole lot of holes in them so their blood leaks out all over the ground or scrambling their dome piece.

 

I'll keep looking around for more test data. I'd really like to shoot some gel blocks of my own own of these days to see for my self how the Hornady V-Max compares to Wolf HP or other rounds.

 

For now I think we can agree HP > Sp > FMJ when it comes to choosing defensive ammo for your rifle.

 

PS I just thought about what Blazed 30 was saying about the Glasser slugs and had a couple thoughts.

 

I don't think the Glaser sounds like a good idea at least to me. You don't want to cause flesh wounds when you shoot some one (think of flesh wounds as just really nasty paper cuts). What you're looking for is deep wounds, preferably into the major organs (like the heart, lungs and liver) that will result in massive bleeding and hopefully a very rapid death due to blood loss. Shrapnel/fragmentation is painful but not particularly dangerous or disabling if it doesn't penetrate through the outer layers of tissue and muscle surrounding the organs. I have plenty of friend that have bits of metal lodged in their bodies (mostly from car bombs and mortars) and they are just fine because it never penetrated deep enough to do anything other then cut up their skin. Maybe Glasser is doing something I don't understand, but I would prefer to use ammo that creates a deep wound track that will cause fatal damage to the target if I hit them in the vitals.

 

On the legal side of things if you shoot some one to protect yourself it better for a darn good reason so it will hold up in court. Here in NC it's a crime to even point a gun at some one unless your justified in shooting them. Defending yourself is a big deal both legally and morally. If I have to shoot some one you bet I'm going to do my best to kill them because any thing less would be reckless and foolishness on my part.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Rusty truck

[superA 289]

I was reading about this myself. I found this article about rifle rounds for home defense a while back. Granted, it is aimed at the 5.56 crowd, but maybe their recommendation of Hornady extrapolates to the 7.62 as well? I'm not sure.

 

Okay, from best to worst:

 

1. Loads using the Nosler 77gr or Hornady 75gr OTM bullet. While these bullets may be slightly less accurate *in some rifles* than the Sierra MK, they offer better wounding capability. These bullets maximize terminal ballistic performance AND they extend fragmentation range over other loads, and even provide *some* fragmentation range from 10" barrels.

 

......

 

Loads To Avoid

 

Anything loaded with a varmint bullet; all varmint bullets in this caliber will underpenetrate from all guns. This means NO VMax bullets (including TAP loads), NO Nosler/Combined Technologies "Ballistic Tip" bullets, and so on. Varmint bullets were designed for animals no larger than 60 lbs., with the lighter bullets being designed for even smaller animals. They are NOT combat bullets, regardless of marketing to the contrary.

 

Any frangible bullet load. Frangible bullets are designed for short-range training, where shooting standard bullets at reactive steel targets would be (more of) a safety hazard. Usually, they are made from powdered lead or tungsten alloy inside a gilding metal jacket. They are designed to disintegrate when striking steel plates, but they are NOT designed to (nor do they accidentally) fragment in flesh.

 

The FBI recommendation for self-defense rounds is 12" I think. It could be more or less, depending on how skinny/fat/muscular your target is and where you hit them. This is why you don't use bird shot--it can create horiffic wounds, but there isn't enough penetration to hit vitals reliably. Your target might die or pass out, but not before shooting back. For the same reason, I have frequently heard that fragmentation rounds are not ideal.

 

But here again, according to Hornady, their V-max TAP does penetrate a full 15", although most of the wound is created between 2"-8".

 

Side note: the steel case is manufactured in Russia, but the rest of the cartridge is made in the US, if I recall correctly.

 

 

 

 

You have heard it a bit wrong. They do not recommend polymer tip bullets in the 223 realm because of insufficient penetration. Fragmentation is very desirable and highest recommend 223 bullets fragment very well even at lower velocities, I think the 75 grain TAP will fragment reliably down to around 2200-2300 fps which gives you about 200 yards of reliable performance out of a 16 inch barrel while still penetrating deep enough. For heavier rounds the ballistic tips are fine, to a degree. The 110 grain v-max shot out of a .308 is moving so fast it explodes early and does not go deep enough. The 155 grain polymer bullets shot out of a .308 are about as good as it gets. The 7.62x39 v-max should do very well.

[CPE1704TKS 24]

RBCD anyone?

[mgconnor13 206]

It goes back to momentum. A fast moving light object is easier to slow down then a fast heavy object. Which would you rather get in a wreck with a VW bug or a F-350 full of bricks? Smaller rounds have so little mass and energy to begin with that as soon as they come apart they loose all steam and drop dead in their tracks. 5.56 is half the weight of 7.62x39mm so it makes sense that a .223 varmint round designed to slow down very quickly and come apart would be horrible at penetrating. Bigger rounds have more then enough energy to go through the target. A hollow point is designed to open up like a parachute so it expends it's energy in the target (reducing the rick of over penetration) and as added bonus the bullets expansion increases the size of the wound track causing even more damage. If the round fragments those chunks and create their own would tracks resulting in even more tissue damage. With a heavy enough bullet the round can break up all it wants because the biggest fragments (usually the base of the round) has enough energy to keep traveling a good ways into the target.

[imarangemaster 315]

In the "Complete book of the ak" there is an article comparing Barnaul, yugo FMJ, HP, and Barnaul SP rounds. 14" penetration on ballistic gel and consistent expansion starting within 1 inch, if I recall right, on the SPs. Good photos, too.

[icefire 10]

DRT has bullets with powdered tungsten (I know, the article above says to avoid these), but the company swears they have more then enough power to easily kill a human. They do tests on pig carcasses. The powdered metal enters, spins and expands, and creates a huge wound cavity, liquifying all organs in the way, with no exit hole. This would work very well on an intruder. Only problem is, though they come in .223 already, we have to wait a few months before they are relasing the rounds in 7.62x39. I'm goona pick some up for home defense when they come out...

 

Just google DRT, or Dynamic Research Technologies...I know they are controversial, but the science seems plausible behind them.

Edited March 28, 2010 by icefire

[superA 289]

In the "Complete book of the ak" there is an article comparing Barnaul, yugo FMJ, HP, and Barnaul SP rounds. 14" penetration on ballistic gel and consistent expansion starting within 1 inch, if I recall right, on the SPs. Good photos, too.

 

 

 

All of these rounds exhibited this behavior? It was Barnaul FMJ, HP and SP and Yugo FMJ correct?

[my762buzz 141]

Would soft points be better then hp or the amax? I would think with the lead exposed on the front it would expand easier? I dont know, maybe its time for some ballistics testing!!!

 

The vmax tip is designed to press backward upon impact forcing the round to deform much faster than a soft point.

The tip pushing back upon impact will make it safer for home defense because it will also deform sooner going through

wall board, wood panels, or wall studs than a typical hollow point design.

If you look at the video link I posted, the soft point at the end reacts much less than either a vmax or the 8m3 bullet

both in shots 2(8m3) and 3(vmax).

 

I have used the Hornady 110 grain .308 Tap on a deer hunt a while back and picked my shot carefully.

One shot in the lower neck at 75 yards and my buck looked like an explosion occured in its neck.

Dead right there. A soft point would not have opened up like that. Deer are tougher than people and

from that perspective the .30 caliber vmax placed center mass at someone's sternum will

most certainly put someone's lights out pretty fast. At its top operating speed, its not just punching

a hole through tissues like most other bullet designs but its punching in and spreading apart fast enough

to create a massive liquified tissue cavity with lateral spreading. Its horrific and brutal.

by the way, search the internet for the ballsitic gel testing already done on .308 Tap

and 7.62x39 vmax.

Edited March 28, 2010 by my762buzz

[BaronVonBigmeat 0]

DRT has bullets with powdered tungsten (I know, the article above says to avoid these), but the company swears they have more then enough power to easily kill a human. They do tests on pig carcasses. The powdered metal enters, spins and expands, and creates a huge wound cavity, liquifying all organs in the way, with no exit hole. This would work very well on an intruder. Only problem is, though they come in .223 already, we have to wait a few months before they are relasing the rounds in 7.62x39. I'm goona pick some up for home defense when they come out...

 

Just google DRT, or Dynamic Research Technologies...I know they are controversial, but the science seems plausible behind them.

 

Wow, that's pretty impressive. Of course, tungsten has like...twice the density of lead, so I guess it makes sense. The video where they take those big nilgai antelope is what sells it--eight shots, eight rather quick deaths. Not that gelatin testing is worthless, but real world examples are better. And several of the shots were using .223, and none of them head shots.

 

Only thing I have to wonder is: does that ruin the meat? I mean if you have tiny little bits of tungsten everywhere, shredding meat to a pulp. And if you ingest tungsten is it poisonous? Not that it's a concern for a self-defense round obviously. Speaking of which, they need to post some videos of what their pistol ammo can do.

 

(edit: looks like their rifle rounds are quite good, but the pistol rounds are not good at all. link. Maybe that is why their website doesn't show the pistol results?)

 

Oh yeah, I wonder how well it fares with overpenetration through drywall and hardi-plank if you miss your target. Pistol hollow-points and 00 buck really aren't impressive in this regard, contrary to popular belief.

Edited March 28, 2010 by BaronVonBigmeat

[imarangemaster 315]

In the "Complete book of the ak" there is an article comparing Barnaul, yugo FMJ, HP, and Barnaul SP rounds. 14" penetration on ballistic gel and consistent expansion starting within 1 inch, if I recall right, on the SPs. Good photos, too.

 

 

 

All of these rounds exhibited this behavior? It was Barnaul FMJ, HP and SP and Yugo FMJ correct?

 

Only the SP started expansion within the first inch, and was dramatic by 4 inches, and had dramatic end results. The HP did well sometimes and fragmented, other times did poorly - inconsistent. The flat based Yugo FMJ (and Barnaul) tumbled better than BT wolf FMJ, but were no where near as good as the SPs. The pics of SP performance were great. I now have 1,000 rounds of Barnaul 124 SPs after reading the article. The max penetration of the SPs was 14 inches. The other were quite a bit more. I would suspect that Wolf SPs would perform well, too.

[superA 289]

In the "Complete book of the ak" there is an article comparing Barnaul, yugo FMJ, HP, and Barnaul SP rounds. 14" penetration on ballistic gel and consistent expansion starting within 1 inch, if I recall right, on the SPs. Good photos, too.

 

 

 

All of these rounds exhibited this behavior? It was Barnaul FMJ, HP and SP and Yugo FMJ correct?

 

Only the SP started expansion within the first inch, and was dramatic by 4 inches, and had dramatic end results. The HP did well sometimes and fragmented, other times did poorly - inconsistent. The flat based Yugo FMJ (and Barnaul) tumbled better than BT wolf FMJ, but were no where near as good as the SPs. The pics of SP performance were great. I now have 1,000 rounds of Barnaul 124 SPs after reading the article. The max penetration of the SPs was 14 inches. The other were quite a bit more. I would suspect that Wolf SPs would perform well, too.

 

 

 

Gotta get me some of that.

[1911vm 0]

First thanks for the awesome info but I guess I should have explained in more detail I am trying to do research on use of 7.62 x 39 for LE application. For example one of the reasons some departments are using .223 is it will not over penetrate as some of the 9mm sub guns. So I am going to perches a lot of samples to do testing. Please continue with your advice thanks.

[Mofeen 0]

What about the Double Tap ammo for SD?

[Vermiform 26]

IMHO anything fired from a rifle is going to go through sheet rock like a knife through hot butter. Maybe some of the afore mentioned "Air Marshall" super uber rabid pirate ninja stuff might be what you're looking for. Let's be honest though, if it doesn't penetrate a couple panels of sheet rock, what's it gonna do to a goblin wearing a leather jacket?

 

My advice is if you live in an apartment with neighbors everywhere, a shotgun may be more appropriate, though buckshot penetrates a good bit too. If you don't have a neighbor factor, I would choose some good softpoint hunting ammo and be aware of your surroundings.

 

Let me be clear, I'm not a warrior, nor have I ever been in a gun fight. I'm just some fat dude that loves AKs, reads alot and posts on the internet.

[1911vm 0]

This all started after a long debate between a friend of mine who is LE and me. I was talking about 7.62 x 39 being an excellent self defense round and would be a great LE caliber. So the only way I know how to win a debate without a fist is data so this is what I am collecting. If anyone would like to add a good argument I will take it. Thanks

PS.In the house or apartment I personally will take 12gage all day long. Saiga 12 works very well.

[superA 289]

I don't think if I was LE that I would want to use the 7.62x39, not because it isn't good for SD but because it would be hard to find a round that didn't penetrate through various materials. With .223 you could get rounds that will at least not go through brick and break up easier on drywall.

[my762buzz 141]

IMHO anything fired from a rifle is going to go through sheet rock like a knife through hot butter. Maybe some of the afore mentioned "Air Marshall" super uber rabid pirate ninja stuff might be what you're looking for. Let's be honest though, if it doesn't penetrate a couple panels of sheet rock, what's it gonna do to a goblin wearing a leather jacket?

 

My advice is if you live in an apartment with neighbors everywhere, a shotgun may be more appropriate, though buckshot penetrates a good bit too. If you don't have a neighbor factor, I would choose some good softpoint hunting ammo and be aware of your surroundings.

 

Let me be clear, I'm not a warrior, nor have I ever been in a gun fight. I'm just some fat dude that loves AKs, reads alot and posts on the internet.

 

 

 

Provided you don't miss the target and nail the SOB center mass, the vmax is going to break up and deform enough that if any fragment actually exits its

going to have a low probability of making it through sheet rock. OO Buck shot will pass through more material than a vmax once it passes through a torso.

I am itching to do a simulation video with sheet rock beyond the simulated torso but can't figure what might work for the torso part besides a dead farm pig which

can be argued has a bone plate much tougher than a human. Making a 12 inch gelatin mold might work. Any ideas?