308 or 223?

[Salmonking 149]

So I'm looking into buying yet another saiga to eventually convert, and prices are finally starting to look feasable; yet, there's always a hitch.

 

I'd be looking to shoot out to 400 yards, would a .223 shot out of the AK platform be accurate enough to manage hitting a 10 inch plate at that distance? Would I have to use a 20 inch barrel to expect that kind of accuracy, or would the 16 inch work? Feel free to shower me with wisdom- Thanks!

 

Edit; I know there are different tools for different jobs, and a bolt action would work best in this particular role, however, I'm talking 400 yards as a max distance, and 100-200 yards being the main area of use. Could the 223 touch out to that 400 yard distance with reasonable groups though? would I need a 20 inch barrel?

Edited April 20, 2010 by Salmonking

[shaneman153a 39]

I'm sure with good ammo either gun could do it. 10" at 400 is basically 2.5 MOA. My .308 could do that even with crap ammo.

 

I would be worried more about energy at that range. You're looking at about 300 ft/lbs of energy which is about twice that of a 22LR.

 

Not saying it won't put someone down, because our boys in green do it every day out to 600 with a .223. But they don't get to pick their caliber....

 

edit: I would get whatever barrel length you want to handle, mine started long and I cut it to 16", actually got more accurate.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Shaneman153D

[ktcm7271 999]

.308 all the way, I don't like a 55 grain varmint load at those distances.

[bohound 281]

I'm having that type of accuracy at 400 with my 5.56, with either Milsurp SS109 (62 gr.) or Wolf 75 gr. HP. I was shocked, but I'm hitting a pie plate consistantly at that range, and even almost to 500.

 

You must have already picked out your OP/LP, and your "go long" on your range card is 350???

[elia.jon1 1]

i would say either will do fine....

 

the 308 would have more thump left......but it also cost more drop....

 

the 223 would shoot flatter but be like a stinger from a 22lr.....

 

if your punching paper and steel i would say 223 cheaper than 308.....less recoil faster follow up...

[YARP 300]

Personal fave=308

elia.john, re-check your trajectory tables.

308 is a very versatile round with an excellent ballistic coefficient.

Shaneman- Less barrel whip maybe?

 

In short hitting paper and being able to drop something are two different things.

[Garys4598 1,065]

Since you've established the distance at 400 yards, IMHO this is a no-brainer. .308 all the way.

.

 

.

 

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[jimdigriz 580]

the 223 would shoot flatter but be like a stinger from a 22lr.....

 

Probably 308 is the best for this application. I'd rather go with even 5.45 ahead of .223, since at least the 5.45 will still tumble when is strikes the target, making it a superior round for this distance than the virtual 22lr stinger.

[shaneman153a 39]

i would say either will do fine....

 

the 308 would have more thump left......but it also cost more drop....

 

the 223 would shoot flatter but be like a stinger from a 22lr.....

 

if your punching paper and steel i would say 223 cheaper than 308.....less recoil faster follow up...

 

That's a pretty common misconception, but all other things being equal, the higher BC bullet is gonna have less drag and carry velocity longer. A quality .308 bullet is gonna have like .5, and a quality .224 is gonna have like .2.

[ktcm7271 999]

Actually, for price and power the 7.62 x 54r is real tough to beat. It's about $0.25/shot and on par with the .308. I just scoped my Mosin, and look forward to some distance shooting. I might get a PSL/Dragunov for some real fun.

[loki0629 55]

Saiga .308 for a couple of reasons:

1) easiest conversion

2) it will hit at 400

3) it does just fine with a 16" barrel (not much velocity drop)

 

Hope that helps.

[eric1785 15]

Actually, for price and power the 7.62 x 54r is real tough to beat. It's about $0.25/shot and on par with the .308. I just scoped my Mosin, and look forward to some distance shooting. I might get a PSL/Dragunov for some real fun.

 

seeing as hkw 223 ammo is made of gold price wise id get a 308, might as well have 10x the energy for almost the same price. Hey where did you get a mount and scope for the mosin? Is it a pu scope?

[ktcm7271 999]

Actually, for price and power the 7.62 x 54r is real tough to beat. It's about $0.25/shot and on par with the .308. I just scoped my Mosin, and look forward to some distance shooting. I might get a PSL/Dragunov for some real fun.

 

seeing as hkw 223 ammo is made of gold price wise id get a 308, might as well have 10x the energy for almost the same price. Hey where did you get a mount and scope for the mosin? Is it a pu scope?

 

I got the mount from sportsman's guide for around $20, and a 4 power scout scope with 13" eye relief off of ebay for about $50. There are better scopes and gunsmithing needed mounts to be had, but I started off cheap. If my mosin can hold a group, I'll upgrade to the better mount and machine it on myself. Then I'll get a nice 4x12 scope and see what it can do. I think I picked up 440 rounds of 54r for around $90 or so. 223/308 is not even close.

[hatemail 2]

.308 all the way, I don't like a 55 grain varmint load at those distances.

agree 100%!!

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Another vote for .308.

 

Buy a 21" and see if ya like that, can cut it down to 20" or 18" and still keep full velocity.

[shaneman153a 39]

Personal fave=308

elia.john, re-check your trajectory tables.

308 is a very versatile round with an excellent ballistic coefficient.

Shaneman- Less barrel whip maybe?

 

In short hitting paper and being able to drop something are two different things.

 

That's the only explanation I could think of. I've seen this in other types of .308s too, maybe .308 just favors a short barrel?

[elia.jon1 1]

zero matters on the drop.....i know my friends who have scoped bolt guns always zero at 100yards/meters

 

while my ar is sighted in at 200......they would catch more bullet drop and have to compensate more.....

 

 

but if you really want to do good at range.......you want a 6.5x55 swede fuck all that 308 nonsense......

 

the swede is flat shooting good bc and it carries its power on out there with it.....

[shaneman153a 39]

 

 

That's a pretty common misconception, but all other things being equal, the higher BC bullet is gonna have less drag and carry velocity longer. A quality .308 bullet is gonna have like .5, and a quality .224 is gonna have like .2.

 

 

zero matters on the drop.....i know my friends who have scoped bolt guns always zero at 100yards/meters

 

while my ar is sighted in at 200......they would catch more bullet drop and have to compensate more.....

 

 

but if you really want to do good at range.......you want a 6.5x55 swede fuck all that 308 nonsense......

 

the swede is flat shooting good bc and it carries its power on out there with it.....

 

Yeah I've currently got a hard-on for either a .264 Win mag (same bullet as the swede) or a .264-300 WM. BC in the .6s and it screams! I think that .264-300 will send a 140gr at 3400fps!

 

That's a 1 mile gun.

[Ruffian72 548]

If you will only shoot targets, go with either. There is a reason the military is putting the .308 back to use in the middle east theater and why most states don't allow the .223 for a big game cartridge.

[YARP 300]

Personal fave=308

elia.john, re-check your trajectory tables.

308 is a very versatile round with an excellent ballistic coefficient.

Shaneman- Less barrel whip maybe?

 

In short hitting paper and being able to drop something are two different things.

 

That's the only explanation I could think of. I've seen this in other types of .308s too, maybe .308 just favors a short barrel?

 

I've noticed it more in barrels that are welded in to place (Saiga, AK, HK variants). The worst by far was my first HK variant build (I took it apart and rebuilt after 7500 rds), also why the AK loses some accuarcy.

I've lost accuracy in FALs every time I go under 18", ARs I don't really know, but in general a threaded barrel seems to flex less where the receiver meets the barrel. On the other hand, weapons that have welded barrels seem to come in to there own with a shorter barrel. Odd

 

 

If you will only shoot targets, go with either. There is a reason the military is putting the .308 back to use in the middle east theater and why most states don't allow the .223 for a big game cartridge.

 

Hells Yes! Simply answered in one sentence, nice Ruffian.

Edited April 21, 2010 by YARP

[diensthunds 0]

So I'm looking into buying yet another saiga to eventually convert, and prices are finally starting to look feasable; yet, there's always a hitch.

 

I'd be looking to shoot out to 400 yards, would a .223 shot out of the AK platform be accurate enough to manage hitting a 10 inch plate at that distance? Would I have to use a 20 inch barrel to expect that kind of accuracy, or would the 16 inch work? Feel free to shower me with wisdom- Thanks!

 

Edit; I know there are different tools for different jobs, and a bolt action would work best in this particular role, however, I'm talking 400 yards as a max distance, and 100-200 yards being the main area of use. Could the 223 touch out to that 400 yard distance with reasonable groups though? would I need a 20 inch barrel?

 

Range max distance for M-16 qualification range is 300 meters that equals 328 yards and that is shooting at a human sized target. So it is not unreasonable that you could hit a 10 or 12 in pie plate at 400 yards. Given that you are using the 20 in barrel I'd say it would be possible to do it.

[loki0629 55]

Range max distance for M-16 qualification range is 300 meters...

For some.

 

For others it's 500 meters.

[shaneman153a 39]

Range max distance for M-16 qualification range is 300 meters...

For some.

 

For others it's 500 meters.

 

Never gonna let that go are you?

 

However, I gotta hand it to you guys, Marines are much better riflemen than USA

 

Hey I just noticed the text for that smiley -----------------------------------------------------------^

is "OSAMA". Can we change that "S" to a "B"?

 

:lolol:

Edited April 22, 2010 by Shaneman153D

[macbeau 902]

Suffice it to say that you can probably "hit" to 400+ meteres with either one as the trajectory will be too close to matter within that range. The bigger problem in energy retention. The .223 will loose alot (more than half) of it's energy to go 400+M where the .308 is still doing just fine in that department (about 30% loss). If you want the bullet to go that far and still have some Ooompf on the target, go with .308...

Also, +1 on easiest Saiga to convert.

 

Macbeau sends...

[loki0629 55]

Never gonna let that go are you?

 

I tried...I really did!

 

Besides, the max range on your miniguns is something like a hundred miles isn't it? You guys get much cooler toys!

[bohound 281]

Range max distance for M-16 qualification range is 300 meters...

For some.

 

For others it's 500 meters.

 

That's why I thank God daily that I was taught by "the best"

[Salmonking 149]

Thanks for the input guys. The main reason I put this question into writing was that I was considering attending a tactical rifle course where we would (at one point) be shooting out to 400 yards. Presently, I own a 16' converted 7.62x39, and I don't think that could hit the gong reliably at those distances, so I was looking into more feasable little flatter shooting options. Does anyone know if the 7.62 can reach out that far? Would I need a specific type of ammo to get better accuracy or am I just trying to paint my house with a mop?

 

On the other side of the fence,I live in the suburbs. There aren't many places I would defend myself from 400 yards away, so I guess I'd be more interested in putting bullets to paper; yet I'm also looking into buying a rifle for hunting soon. My present option is the aformentioned 7.62x39 with a 5 round magazine, but I'd like something with some more oomf. I'll probably end up buying both, but we'll see which one I go for first.

[jimdigriz 580]

Does anyone know if the 7.62 can reach out that far?

 

Yes. I suggest setting the sight ramp to '4'. ;-)

 

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=33277

[Salmonking 149]

Does anyone know if the 7.62 can reach out that far?

 

Yes. I suggest setting the sight ramp to '4'. ;-)

 

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=33277

 

lol, I just figured the sights were optimisic; like a Mosin Nagant's irons going out to 2000m. Heck, if I can pull these kind of results out of my AK (with some practice) I'd be one happy camper. Now to find a range with that amount of, um, range.

[loki0629 55]

The 7.62x39 will hit out to 400. But at 300+ you really need to know how to dope your weapon, which the standard ak iron sights are woefully lacking in ability. If you have the standard sights, I recommend using a 6 o'clock hold and use kentucky windage based on impact. I also recommend spending the money on a windage adjustable rear sight. If the carbine class allows you to use optics, I'd use that. But the rifle you have is adequate to the task.