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mikegraffam

How to quasi-convert a Saiga-12 for 922r and NY AWB compliance

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I'm a New York State resident, and I'm about to purchase a Saiga-12 shotgun. I'm aiming to get one with a threaded barrel.

 

I'd like to use US-made 8 and 10 round mags.. (10 is the legal limit in NY) so I need to convert the gun for 922r. When I google around for stuff on Saiga 922r compliance, all you lucky guys out there in the free States are doing it for putting pistol grips and such on your shotties. Thats great, but it isn't NY legal (we have the 1994 AWB as state law).

 

I need to keep the factory buttstock (and hence, trigger assembly) intact for NY law.

 

I believe I can add a US-made muzzle device, and foregrip to my Saiga (two 922r parts) and then use only US-made mags (3 parts) to be 922 compliant, as this leaves the follow imported parts:

 

Receiver, barrel, bolt, bolt carrier, gas piston, trigger, hammer, disconnector, and buttstock

 

..so, after doing so I have a gun made with less than 10 (9 - whew :) imported parts. It is a semi-auto shotgun with a detachable mag (my one NY evil feature).

 

As far as I can tell, this would be both 922r and NY legal. Or am I missing something?

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I've said it before and I'll say it again ...

922r is most simply 10 or fewer foreign made parts... but you've got that :)

 

Use my handy site to figure out your compliance.

http://jobson.us/922r/

 

I'm not sure about NY compliance, move to VA :)

Edited by vbrtrmn

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I've said it before and I'll say it again ...

922r is most simply 10 or fewer foreign made parts... but you've got that :)

 

Use my handy site to figure out your compliance.

http://jobson.us/922r/

 

I'm not sure about NY compliance, move to VA :)

 

:) Yeah. Thats fine - but isn't there also something to do with 'sporting purposes' in 922r? My legalese isn't quite good enough to decipher that.

 

I wish picking up and entirely moving out of NY is an option. But it would have to be VT - I like cold weather :)

 

Anyhow, the NY law is just the 94 AWB, so for shotties that is just:

 

(B) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics:

 

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

 

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

 

(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds;

 

(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine;

 

.. I'm more concerned about that 'sporting purposes' BS in 922r.

 

If I have less than 10 imported parts, I'm 100% good to go? No other worries about some sporting purposes clauses or some such nonsense?

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If I have less than 10 imported parts, I'm 100% good to go? No other worries about some sporting purposes clauses or some such nonsense?

 

Yes, if you have 10 or less foreign "counted" 922 parts, then you're good to go in that area.

 

As far as being NY-compliant, you've got the correct info posted above: No pistol grips on your S12, etc. But you can still technically convert it; meaning you can swap out the FCG for a regular AK FCG. You'd just have to use a thumbhole stock of some kind. Myself and a few other NY'ers have thumbholes on our converted S12's in NY.

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If I have less than 10 imported parts, I'm 100% good to go? No other worries about some sporting purposes clauses or some such nonsense?

 

Yes, if you have 10 or less foreign "counted" 922 parts, then you're good to go in that area.

 

As far as being NY-compliant, you've got the correct info posted above: No pistol grips on your S12, etc. But you can still technically convert it; meaning you can swap out the FCG for a regular AK FCG. You'd just have to use a thumbhole stock of some kind. Myself and a few other NY'ers have thumbholes on our converted S12's in NY.

 

OK, sounds likes I have this sorted then. Thank you.

 

Yeah, I'm aware of the thumbhole option, but I prefer to stay away from that, if possible. I shoot off-side as well, and most thumbhole designs I've seen aren't that friendly for both righties and lefties.

 

Now, if the linkage to the FCG really makes the stock Saiga trigger that bad (never fired one - this will be my first Saiga), I'll consider a thumbhole..

 

I'm not 100% familiar with all the stuff for Saigas, nor the AK parts that are known to work with some coaxing.

 

Are there any thumbhole stocks you see as particularly good for shooting from both sides?

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Are there any thumbhole stocks you see as particularly good for shooting from both sides?

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=55542

 

Only problem is, the Bulgarian is hard to find nowadays. There's a few other similar ones, though, that should fit your needs. Choate, ATI, etc.

Edited by -Shooter-

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As a fellow NYer and LEO I can tell you that if you added a front "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" you are not in NYS complince. You already have a semi-automatic shotgun that has (1)"an ability to accept a dettachable magazine". Adding a (2)front pistol grip would be "at least two of the following" thereby making it non-compliant. I just saw in the paper a couple months ago where a NYer was prosected for illegal weapons. It would suck to get jambed up over something that you THOUGHT was ok. That's also the same reason we can't put folders on our guns.

 

 

“Assault weapon” is defined as: ..........

• A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following

characteristics:

• a folding or telescoping stock;

• a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action

of the weapon;

• a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds;

• an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

 

"Front pistol grip"? As in a VFG; vertical foregrip?

 

If so, they're perfectly legal in NY on an S12, as it's not "beneath the action of the weapon".

Edited by -Shooter-

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I am not confused, incorrect perhaps. The "Assault Weapons" definition I gave is the exact wording in the law. Call it a VFG if you will but I searched "front pistol grip" and came up with 100's of sites that sell them, so I'm not the only incorrect one.

Edited by Yeoldetool

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I am not confused, incorrect perhaps. The "Assault Weapons" definition I gave is the exact wording in the law. Call it a VFG if you will but I searched "front pistol grip" and came up with 100's of sites that sell them, so I'm not the only incorrect one.

 

Let's straighten this out..........

 

 

 

Below is a pic of a member's S12 (ChileRelleno). The grip under the handguard is perfectly legal on an S12 in NY. Is that what you were talking about?

 

 

100_7579.jpg

Edited by -Shooter-

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I don't need to get it straightned out. It it totally a moot point to me because of NYS Penal Law § 265.20. I am simply trying to save someone who is not LE from getting stuck in some bureaucratic nonsense. I know people will do as they please because of terminology but, a pistol grip is a pistol grip whether its on a gun or a drill or a hockey puck.P1030031.jpg

Edited by Yeoldetool

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I would say move away from NY, but since this is not the issue what you can do as well is to purchase a Tapco G2 trigger group.. Take both triggers to a welder or if you can do it yourself better yet, cut the trigger off of the original group and weld it to the Tapco group, of course you will cut & grind off the trigger from the Tapco group. You know added 3 more parts for compliance and a better trigger group.....

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Good luck on whatever you decide

 

Added:

 

You still can change out the stock as long as it is the hunting style stock 1 more part....

Edited by 308saiga

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I would say move away from NY, but since this is not the issue what you can do as well is to purchase a Tapco G2 trigger group.. Take both triggers to a welder or if you can do it yourself better yet, cut the trigger off of the original group and weld it to the Tapco group, of course you will cut & grind off the trigger from the Tapco group. You know added 3 more parts for compliance and a better trigger group.....

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Good luck on whatever you decide

What's the point of that (besides getting 2½ US parts in there and screwing up a perfectly good G2 trigger)?

 

The sh***y trigger isn't gonna be fixed until you can get rid of parts #7 and #10 (please note that #8 and #9 are also part of the Saiga factory 5-piece trigger)

saiga556_664_a.JPG

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I don't need to get it straightned out.

 

For the sake of putting out incorrect vs correct info...........you still haven't said exactly what you meant.

 

 

 

The actual pistol grip, right near the trigger is what is illegal on an S12 in NY. The vertical grip under the handguard as pictured above, is legal on an S12 (and any other long gun) in NY.

 

The difference being that the one under the handguard is not "beneath the action" as referred to in NY's AWB.

 

 

I know people will do as they please because of terminology but, a pistol grip is a pistol grip whether its on a gun or a drill or a hockey puck.

 

Maybe so, but the only one that matters and is spoken of in NY's AWB is the one "beneath the action". All others have no legal bearing in NY. You can put 42 pistol grips on a quad rail on your S12, and it won't legally matter. You'll get laughed at when at the range, but you're not breaking any laws.

Edited by -Shooter-

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I would say move away from NY, but since this is not the issue what you can do as well is to purchase a Tapco G2 trigger group.. Take both triggers to a welder or if you can do it yourself better yet, cut the trigger off of the original group and weld it to the Tapco group, of course you will cut & grind off the trigger from the Tapco group. You know added 3 more parts for compliance and a better trigger group.....

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Good luck on whatever you decide

 

Added:

 

You still can change out the stock as long as it is the hunting style stock 1 more part....

 

I'm not sure what the end point is of doing all of that, when you can put in a standard G2 (modded to fit an S12, but not modded in the manner you're describing) and then throw a regular AK thumbhole-style stock on an S12 in NY. When I was in NY, I had the Bulgarian thumbhole on mine and loved it.

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What's the point of that (besides getting 2½ US parts in there and screwing up a perfectly good G2 trigger)?

 

The sh***y trigger isn't gonna be fixed until you can get rid of parts #7 and #10 (please note that #8 and #9 are also part of the Saiga factory 5-piece trigger)

http://www.novarata.net/abrams/saiga556/1024/saiga556_664_a.JPG

 

If that is a picture of the Saiga 12 TG then I am mistaken, I was under the impression that the trigger was the elongated like the 308... My bad disregard my post... Thanks for the information...

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also...FYI threaded muzzles mean nothing under the NYS AWB. they don't pertain to shotguns. shotguns are not allowed two "evil" features like the semi-auto rifle...the detachable mag being one,you can convert and use a thumbhole

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Can't you have a pistol grip that isn't below the "action?" A product like the tapco T6 stock and psitol grip would be NY legal if it was fixed to NOT telescope because the pistol grip is below and BEHIND the action, correct? That is how I read the law at least.

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Can't you have a pistol grip that isn't below the "action?" A product like the tapco T6 stock and psitol grip would be NY legal if it was fixed to NOT telescope because the pistol grip is below and BEHIND the action, correct? That is how I read the law at least.

 

I wouldn't personally do it.

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Legally you can put a thumbhole style stock on it to move the trigger forward. Magazine cap is 5 on detachable magazines for shotguns, not 10 like it is for rifles. With all due respect to the LEO, sorry sir, the NY AWB does not regulate vertical foregrips, only pistol grips that support the firing hand to manipulate the trigger, as it was during the 1994-2004 AWB, of which New York has mirrored exactly and upheld all rulings the BATFE made during that era on features that are allowed and not. It is a confusing issue and it's easy to misunderstand the intent and wording of the law.

 

Also note that unlike rifles, the detachable magazine itself is an assault weapon feature on a semi-automatic shotgun. That is why the only stock set you can use is a thumbhole stock. For rifles, the fact of it having a detachable magazine is part of the requirements for its classification as an assault weapon (rifles with a fixed mag like the SKS, for example, would not fall under the AWB regulations).

Edited by Big Boss

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Magazine cap is 5 on detachable magazines for shotguns, not 10 like it is for rifles.

 

No.

 

It says:

 

22. "Assault weapon" means (a) a semiautomatic rifle that has an

ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the

following characteristics:

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of

the weapon;

(iii) a bayonet mount;

(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a

flash suppressor;

(v) a grenade launcher; or

(B ) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following

characteristics:

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of

the weapon;

(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds;

(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine;

 

 

You can have 10 round detachable mags for semi-auto shotguns in NY. If you're semi-auto shotgun has a fixed magazine, then you're limited to 5.

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Guess what? After July (I think) no more front pistol grips either. Someone posted a link to the new law in question on another part of the board.

 

 

Here: My link

 

My link

 

The link you referred to is a bill that has not been ratified. This same bill gets reintroduced nearly every year and it's first stop is at the republican controlled 'codes committee'; once the bill makes it to the codes committee it gets shot down (pun intended). I'm sure you didn't intend to scare NY'ers, but it is incorrect to imply that this has passed; it has not passed and it is unlikely that it will pass in the near future (hopefully). So please, to all my fellow NY'ers do not worry and go out and 'panic buy' as it drives up prices for everyone else.

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I panicked when I read this bill!...........my saiga plus one evil part = banned.........Dems want to get rid of all guns and when we try to meet the law they object with new laws........there was so much misinformation and trickery in the wording of that bill.In one paragraph they talk about spraying people with these purposely built people killers and the next try to make it seem as if semi auto guns where the same thing...hope the code people understand the difference...........anyhow thanks for posting the bill its good info to be aware of.......

 

got my stock today and did the mini conversion with Tapco t6 intrafuse...bolted the stock full open and JB welded the stock as well ..probably overkill there but in NY you can"t be too careful....took the stock down to the local police station ( small town ,good guys )before I put it on the rifle to get their opinion on the modification and first off the officer stated that it was a stupid law and yep my stock wont collapse so I was fine came home and put it together...ammo comes tomorrow but still have to wait till it stops raining..........pictures elsewhere....

Edited by ZERGDOGG

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