demilled rifles

[Ermac 8]

I think one of the best things that could happen in the AK world is if Russia started building new recievers with demilled parts from AKM's and AK-47's. I don't understand why they don't do it already. It's cheaper than making entirely new rifles.

Edited June 30, 2010 by tritium
spelling

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Much of the price of the Saiga comes from import laws, restrictions, and customer demand. The 7.62x39s were $299 for a while (think they still are) which means the dealers are paying probably like $225-250 meaning the distributor is paying probably like $125-175 or something very low, and a lot of that costs is probably shipping, and Izhmash needs a profit too, meaning they're probably selling these rifles for like $75-100 USD to the US distributor. I remember reading somewhere that on an industrial scale it costs like $30something to make an AK. So why bother.

 

DISCLAIMER: All numbers contained in the post are mental math and random musings and are not to be taken seriously or accepted as fact. They are merely the guesses of a guy in his house bored on a Wednesday afternoon.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Classy Kalashnikov

[bigsal 757]

I think one of the best things that could happen in the AK world is if Russia started building new recievers with demilled parts from AKM's and AK-47's. I don't understand why they don't do it already. It's cheaper than making entirely new rifles.

 

Why, in your mind, would this be an advantage?

[BKLYN_C 14]

I think one of the best things that could happen in the AK world is if Russia started building new recievers with demilled parts from AKM's and AK-47's. I don't understand why they don't do it already. It's cheaper than making entirely new rifles.

 

They do. In Ukraine you can buy an AK rifle built from original parts and new receiver. Not sure about Russia though

[Ermac 8]

I think one of the best things that could happen in the AK world is if Russia started building new recievers with demilled parts from AKM's and AK-47's. I don't understand why they don't do it already. It's cheaper than making entirely new rifles.

 

Why, in your mind, would this be an advantage?

It would be nicer then a Saiga.

[chevyman097 2,579]

I think one of the best things that could happen in the AK world is if Russia started building new recievers with demilled parts from AKM's and AK-47's. I don't understand why they don't do it already. It's cheaper than making entirely new rifles.

 

Why, in your mind, would this be an advantage?

It would be nicer then a Saiga.

 

ORLY?

 

[Ermac 8]

You don't think it would be cool to have a classic Russian AKM or AK-47?

[bigsal 757]

There is a reason the russians went with the 100 series over heavy early builds...But emarc, you can just buy russian kis (or egyptian kits made on russian tooling) and a nodak receiver and just build your own... no need for Izzy to pump out receivers. Good Luck with your build, feel free to PM me with questions.

 

 

 

 

Also Chevy, I hate you.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

lol I really don't see why this is even something worth considering while SGL21's are available for ~$689, (from Atlantic). The SGL21 is basically a factory-new AK-103; minus selective fire and the folding stock.

 

You really think you'd get a more accurate/reliable rifle from older, demilled parts rebuilt on a new receiver? Also, what company could legally import that type of rifle from Russia?

 

There's a reason that RAAC doesn't offer rifles built the same way as Arsenal's Legion models.

Edited July 1, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[Ermac 8]

lol I really don't see why this is even something worth considering while SGL21's are available for ~$689, (from Atlantic). The SGL21 is basically a factory-new AK-103; minus selective fire and the folding stock.

 

You really think you'd get a more accurate/reliable rifle from older, demilled parts rebuilt on a new receiver? Also, what company could legally import that type of rifle from Russia?

 

There's a reason that RAAC doesn't offer rifles built the same way as those Arsenal sells.

It would be mostly for looks. The WASR 10/63's are the built the same way I suggested and they are reliable and fairly accurate. I might just get a SGL21 like you suggested.

 

 

 

 

There is a reason the russians went with the 100 series over heavy early builds...But emarc, you can just buy russian kis (or egyptian kits made on russian tooling) and a nodak receiver and just build your own... no need for Izzy to pump out receivers. Good Luck with your build, feel free to PM me with questions.

 

 

 

 

Also Chevy, I hate you.

I wouldn't even bother because of the prices of Russian AK-47 and AKM part kits.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Ermac

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Ermac, you're missing half the point. The type of rifle you describe is not currently legal to import to the US from Russia afaik.

 

If you could get a Russian parts kit, then you could rebuild it yourself on a US-made receiver, (with the standard 922r compliance parts-count), but you couldn't have the rifle built on a Russian AK receiver, (that can use "high capacity magazines") without the "sporter" features standard on RAAC Saiga rifles.

 

By doing so much business in Bulgaria, Arsenal is able to get around the above direct-from-Russia importation laws...

Edited July 1, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[Ermac 8]

Ermac, you're missing half the point. The type of rifle you describe is not currently legal to import to the US from Russia afaik.

 

If you could get a Russian parts kit, then you could rebuild it yourself on a US-made receiver, (with the standard 922r compliance parts-count), but you couldn't have the rifle built on a Russian AK receiver, (that can use "high capacity magazines") without the "sporter" features standard on RAAC Saiga rifles.

 

By doing so much business in Bulgaria, Arsenal is able to get around the above direct-from-Russia importation laws...

What law is there that they can't build new rifles from old parts and then import them in a sporter configuration? Maybe you misunderstood me.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Ermac

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Ermac, you're missing half the point. The type of rifle you describe is not currently legal to import to the US from Russia afaik.

 

If you could get a Russian parts kit, then you could rebuild it yourself on a US-made receiver, (with the standard 922r compliance parts-count), but you couldn't have the rifle built on a Russian AK receiver, (that can use "high capacity magazines") without the "sporter" features standard on RAAC Saiga rifles.

 

By doing so much business in Bulgaria, Arsenal is able to get around the above direct-from-Russia importation laws...

What law is there that they can't build new rifles from old parts and then import them in a sporter configuration?

 

^ That's that point, right there. Fuck any "sporter configuration". With those restrictions, you wouldn't even have a bayonet lug, (and possibly an un-threaded barrel), on your "AKM". The law is the arbitrary and unconstitutional bullshit that it is.

 

My advice is to go with your previously mentioned good instinct and just buy a SGL21. You buy one of those rifles, and you're "done".

Edited July 1, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[Ermac 8]

Ermac, you're missing half the point. The type of rifle you describe is not currently legal to import to the US from Russia afaik.

 

If you could get a Russian parts kit, then you could rebuild it yourself on a US-made receiver, (with the standard 922r compliance parts-count), but you couldn't have the rifle built on a Russian AK receiver, (that can use "high capacity magazines") without the "sporter" features standard on RAAC Saiga rifles.

 

By doing so much business in Bulgaria, Arsenal is able to get around the above direct-from-Russia importation laws...

What law is there that they can't build new rifles from old parts and then import them in a sporter configuration?

 

^ That's that point, right there. Fuck any "sporter configuration". With those restrictions, you wouldn't even have a bayonet lug, (and possibly an un-threaded barrel), on your "AKM". The law is the arbitrary and unconstitutional bullshit that it is.

 

My advice is to go with your previously mentioned good instinct and just buy a SGL21. You buy one of those rifles, and you're "done".

It would be fairly easy to convert them back once they get here. Here's how it goes. Izmash demills full auto's then builds semi auto reciever low cap reciever then builds the rifle with old AKM or AK-47 parts. Izmash shaves the bayonet lug off and tack welds the muzzle. Izmash then imports the rifle to Arsenal. Arsenal undoes the welds on the muzzle, makes the reciever hip cap, then adds the compliance parts like the pistol grip,mag, and muzzle brake. Now you have a classic 100% Russian AKM or AK-47, minus the bayonet lug. It would be cheaper for Arsenal to convert so they wouldn't charge high prices. Century arms could even do it.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Ermac

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

^ Yeah, even in the best-case-scenario, fuck that. Imo, the rifle you describe would be decidedly inferior to a factory-produced rifle made of all new parts.

 

Ymmv. (just buy the SGL21; those are available now )

 

Per your edit, perhaps you should do a little research into the hoops Arsenal jumps through to offer the SGL, (Legion), rifles. They're more unique than you seem to think.

 

Eg: no extra holes are ever put into the receivers Legion uses to accommodate a "sporter" trigger. Arsenal doesn't have to weld anything up, those "extra" holes were never there.

Edited July 1, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[Ermac 8]

^ Yeah, even in the best-case-scenario, fuck that. Imo, the rifle you describe would be decidedly inferior to a factory-produced rifle made of all new parts.

 

Ymmv. (just buy the SGL21; those are available now )

 

Per your edit, perhaps you should do a little research into the hoops Arsenal jumps through to offer the SGL, (Legion), rifles. They're more unique than you seem to think.

 

Eg: no extra holes are ever put into the receivers Legion uses to accommodate a "sporter" trigger. Arsenal doesn't have to weld anything up, those "extra" holes are never there.

It would be inferior, but it would be less costly in the long run and would have more appeal. So you're telling me the SGL isn't just a tricked out Saiga?

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

^ Yeah, even in the best-case-scenario, fuck that. Imo, the rifle you describe would be decidedly inferior to a factory-produced rifle made of all new parts.

 

Ymmv. (just buy the SGL21; those are available now )

 

Per your edit, perhaps you should do a little research into the hoops Arsenal jumps through to offer the SGL, (Legion), rifles. They're more unique than you seem to think.

 

Eg: no extra holes are ever put into the receivers Legion uses to accommodate a "sporter" trigger. Arsenal doesn't have to weld anything up, those "extra" holes are never there.

It would be inferior, but it would be less costly in the long run and would have more appeal. So you're telling me the SGL isn't just a tricked out Saiga?

 

It's factory-marked as a "Saiga", (all Russian non-military small arms are, though Legion weapons are marked in a different location on the receiver), but it's fundamentally different, (far more mil-spec), from the more familiar RAAC "sporter" Saiga.

Edited July 1, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[Nailbomb 10,221]

SGL rifles are very competitivly priced for the market they share, and the product they turn out.

 

I just like starting out with a base model, and rolling my own. Cutting them up and rebuilding them in my own vision is 1/2 the fun.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

SGL rifles are very competitivly priced for the market they share, and the product they turn out.

 

I just like starting out with a base model, and rolling my own. Cutting them up and rebuilding them in my own vision is 1/2 the fun.

 

^ And to each, his own. That's what RAAC "sporter" Saiga rifles are for.

 

With a SGL21, your new rifle is already "done", with some mil-spec features that cannot be easily, (if at all), replicated post-production.

[bigsal 757]

I prefer rifles with military markings. Emerf has an interesting idea and we should all be supportive in his silly effort.

That being said, there are some aspects of the SGL series that are apealing, however I have yet to encounter a more authentic receiver than the 06 +Y that were imported by RAA.

Converting these requires a lot of work compared to to the Arsenal offerings, and therefore I would sugest newbies not venture into those waters...

Edited July 2, 2010 by bigsal

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

SGL rifles are very competitivly priced for the market they share, and the product they turn out.

 

I just like starting out with a base model, and rolling my own. Cutting them up and rebuilding them in my own vision is 1/2 the fun.

 

^ And to each, his own. That's what RAAC "sporter" Saiga rifles are for.

 

With a SGL21, your new rifle is already "done", with some mil-spec features that cannot be easily, (if at all), replicated post-production.

 

Aside from cosmetic Y markings or the info being etched into a different part of the receiver, how does an SGL21 vary from a 7.62x39 Saiga sporter that has had a "full" front and rear conversion?

Edited July 2, 2010 by Classy Kalashnikov

[bigsal 757]

SGL rifles are very competitivly priced for the market they share, and the product they turn out.

 

I just like starting out with a base model, and rolling my own. Cutting them up and rebuilding them in my own vision is 1/2 the fun.

 

^ And to each, his own. That's what RAAC "sporter" Saiga rifles are for.

 

With a SGL21, your new rifle is already "done", with some mil-spec features that cannot be easily, (if at all), replicated post-production.

 

Aside from cosmetic Y markings or the info being etched into a different part of the receiver, how does an SGL21 vary from a 7.62x39 Saiga sporter that has had a "full" front and rear conversion?

They come with authentic FSB and accessory lug as well as authentic rear sight leaf. But the SGL and most of the RAAs lack the NON COSMETIC +Y. Only a few of these superior rifles are stateside, where as both the normal sportsters and SGL's are common.

Edited July 2, 2010 by bigsal

[csspecs 1,987]

There would be no savings in rebuilding a "parts kit" in a factory, and even more when they have to comply with import laws. The labor would kill any savings.

[chevyman097 2,579]

There would be no savings in rebuilding a "parts kit" in a factory, and even more when they have to comply with import laws. The labor would kill any savings.

 

This is absolute correct. I understand what you are getting at ermac, excuse my joking earlier.

 

But I have to agree here. Cssspecs said it before I got back around to this thread.

 

De-milling a rifle would likely cost them more than it does right now to simply built new importable rifles. As cool as it would be to have a demilled Russian AK, its not gonna happen. A demilled Russian AK would be no better than the saigas imported today, coolness or sentimental value aside.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Chevyman097

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

SGL rifles are very competitivly priced for the market they share, and the product they turn out.

 

I just like starting out with a base model, and rolling my own. Cutting them up and rebuilding them in my own vision is 1/2 the fun.

 

^ And to each, his own. That's what RAAC "sporter" Saiga rifles are for.

 

With a SGL21, your new rifle is already "done", with some mil-spec features that cannot be easily, (if at all), replicated post-production.

 

Aside from cosmetic Y markings or the info being etched into a different part of the receiver, how does an SGL21 vary from a 7.62x39 Saiga sporter that has had a "full" front and rear conversion?

They come with authentic FSB and accessory lug as well as authentic rear sight leaf. But the SGL and most of the RAAs lack the NON COSMETIC +Y. Only a few of these superior rifles are stateside, where as both the normal sportsters and SGL's are common.

 

Yeah but I am referring to a "full" conversion sporter, i.e. one that has had the gas block and front sight block removed and replaced with standard AK ones. And the sight leaf would also be a quick swap.

 

So the only thing an SGL would have over a fully converted sporter is a Y stamp.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

SGL rifles are very competitivly priced for the market they share, and the product they turn out.

 

I just like starting out with a base model, and rolling my own. Cutting them up and rebuilding them in my own vision is 1/2 the fun.

 

^ And to each, his own. That's what RAAC "sporter" Saiga rifles are for.

 

With a SGL21, your new rifle is already "done", with some mil-spec features that cannot be easily, (if at all), replicated post-production.

 

Aside from cosmetic Y markings or the info being etched into a different part of the receiver, how does an SGL21 vary from a 7.62x39 Saiga sporter that has had a "full" front and rear conversion?

They come with authentic FSB and accessory lug as well as authentic rear sight leaf. But the SGL and most of the RAAs lack the NON COSMETIC +Y. Only a few of these superior rifles are stateside, where as both the normal sportsters and SGL's are common.

 

Yeah but I am referring to a "full" conversion sporter, i.e. one that has had the gas block and front sight block removed and replaced with standard AK ones. And the sight leaf would also be a quick swap.

 

So the only thing an SGL would have over a fully converted sporter is a Y stamp.

 

No. What Sal's saying is that Legion rifles and the vast majority of Saiga 7.62x39 rifles imported by RAAC lack the "extra" Y stamp that some RAAC '06 rifles have, (a factory oversight/they didn't give a shit). The second Y stamp is for the auto sear pin.

 

Personally, I recognize that that second stamp doesn't really mean shit and it would cost a helluva lot more to acquire and then convert restore one of those '06 rifles to a semi-auto AK-103 than ~$689; which is what a SGL21, (which has all those mil-spec features already, from Izhmash's custom shop), sells for from Atlantic.

[nalioth 405]

All of this "this one's better than the other one cuz it looks different" bull**** only counts for wall hangers or safe queens.

 

 

All of'em shoot the same.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

 

No. What Sal's saying is that Legion rifles and the vast majority of Saiga 7.62x39 rifles imported by RAAC lack the "extra" Y stamp that some RAAC '06 rifles have, (a factory oversight/they didn't give a shit). The second Y stamp is for the auto sear pin.

 

Personally, I recognize that that second stamp doesn't really mean shit and it would cost a helluva lot more to acquire and then convert restore one of those '06 rifles to a semi-auto AK-103 than ~$689; which is what a SGL21, (which has all those mil-spec features already, from Izhmash's custom shop), sells for from Atlantic.

 

Yeah I know what the Y stamp is for and like I said, the Y stamp is useless to me. If someone wants it for collector value or cosmetics, cool. But I'm talking pure function, the Y stamp does nothing on a semi auto rifle.

[bigsal 757]

If society brakes down we will see how handy the "Y" comes in...

 

Also, as a point of fact, the other advantage of the 06 overruns is in the barrel that was included.

 

Nalioth -1 for general ass-hat-ery.

Edited July 2, 2010 by bigsal

[Ermac 8]

This might be a newb question, but why do Saiga's have bullet guides when other AK's do not?