super jim 14 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 I don't have a AR rifle so I was thinking an AR-15, .223 cal. would be nice. But then I do have a .223 ca. Mini-14 tactical. So I thought manybe an AR in another cal....22L or .308. .22L = cheap ammo vs. .308 but not as much excitment from plinking .22's. Then I thought, if .308, maybe a Saiga .308. Of course this is a Saiga sight, but whar are some recommendations and why? Maybe I should just invest in gold at $1,411/oz. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Young 175 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 Maybe I should just invest in gold at $1,411/oz. Now that is the smart man's option.... but no one ever said I was a smart man... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) I had the 762x39 7/09 and 545x39 Saiga 03/10.. I also bought a Saiga 308 21" in July-August 2010 I decided after a year I wanted an AR weapon.. I sold the 762 & 545 Saiga and I bought a DPMS LR-308 in November. I wanted 30 cal perfomance.. I like the Saiga/AK Platform.. I now have the Saiga 308 and DPMS LR-308 I wanted an AR also.. but I use the go big or go home theory these days.. so 223 wasn't considered. If you go Saiga I'd go for the 762x39 (ammo is at $4-5/box online if you look around).. or the Saiga 308.. (ammo is $7-9/bx for Tula) I have the Saiga 308 running a scope and getting avg 1 1/4" groups at 100 yards (with Hornady SST ammo).. and the DPMS is out fitted with EoTech for MBR usage.. The DPMS will more than likely shoot smaller than MOA, but I have the setups per 'setup'..so thats how they will stay for now.. Al Edited January 2, 2011 by YWHIC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
schultze13 354 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 I would go with the AR-15 in 5.56 because when the SHTF there will be plenty of ammo,mags and parts around. With that said If you dont own a Saiga 12 or and AK rifle then you better get on the ball and get one of these first then get an AR. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Heath_h49008 442 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 As a simple rule of thumb for primary weapons, I have a list of capabilities, not weapons. Low power, cheap ammo, hunting etc... .22 lr rifle. Everyone needs one. 12guage... Saiga 12 obviously! (ammo availibility, and selection, knockdown power... Sorry 20gauge guys) Side arm. What you may carry as a daily concealed, or use for home defense. 1911, XD, Glock, SW, etc in a combat chambering... .45acp, .40SW, 9mm. An all-weather carbine. AK, AR, Kel Tec SU16/PLR16.... OR... an FAL, S308, RFB, H&K/CETME, AR10, Garand, M1A... that can eat cheap ammo and have good reliability if you have to get dirty. Accurate rifle in medium/hunting power. .308/7.62x54R would seem the most logical. Consider the scope as you consider the rifle, you will spend as much on it as the gun. If you notice, you can get the two of the last 3 in the same chambering, or not. It can save money, but the ammo you will feed a high quality "sniper" or "Big Game" rifle will not be the same that you dump through the carbine. But it is nice to have the option should ammo get scarce. And last but definitely not least (expensive) an anti material weapon like a .50BMG. Very long range, very hard hitting, possibly very accurate. This is the list I work off of, or at least try to. You may need more than one of one type for each family member, but this list would let one man, who knew what he was doing, play in almost any shooting competition. He would also be well equipped for any bi-directional range he found himself on. Do I have to mention the ammo cost to feed these bastards? Just training and a few friendly matches a month will be as much as a few oz of gold sent into the backstop. But it's cheaper than a lot of habits, ne? If you want commodity metals, lead and brass can be as lucrative as gold or silver. (But silver has more upside left in the market FWIW) YMMV Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Arik 565 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 An all-weather carbine. AK, AR, Kel Tec SU16/PLR16.... OR... an FAL, S308, RFB, H&K/CETME, AR10, Garand, M1A... that can eat cheap ammo and have good reliability if you have to get dirty. The LAR fals can't use Russian 308. They even say it on their site. Also heard similar things about the m14. That its a bad idea to shoot cheap Russian steel case 308. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kliegl 304 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 Why would anyone want to buy a good gun and then throw crap ammo through it is beyond me, anyway. I think the best 308 platform is the M1A right now. I prefer battle rifles over assault rifles and carbines. You can take a building with a battle rifle, it was done many times in WWII, but you can't shoot as far with a carbine. I mean, I like my AR, it's fun, accurate, and the ammo is cheaper, but I like a longer barrel and the power of the .308. It's a good round for getting back on target, yet giving good power. For hunting, I'll step further up than the .308, but that's another discussion. I like piston driven guns over gas impingement and delayed roller as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Heath_h49008 442 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 Everyone has their preferences. I like the .308. My G3 on the Dan Coonan receiver has been dead reliable since I built it. The ugly truth is, delayed roller blow-back is the most rugged and reliable way to operate a weapon. It has the fewest moving parts, and doesn't require any gas system. H&K treats their non-LEO/military customers like shit, and prices the stuff in the realm of make believe. But, if you want a gun that you can take swimming and shoot without , it won't have a gas system. The H&K 416 is supposed to be good "over the beach" as well. And they love cheap steel case ammo. It's all about where you are, what you feel like lugging, and what works for you. My issues with the M1A have more to do with parts availability, weight, cost, complexity, and lack of distinct advantage over others. But I still love them. If money was no object, I would build one. Some people hate the SU16/PLR16. I can't figure out why yet. Mine weighs 3lbs, eats everything, takes AR mags, is piston driven, lifetime warranty, and cost $500. I through out a ton of options, there are many more I missed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrutalGardener 205 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 I would go with the AR-15 in 5.56 because when the SHTF there will be plenty of ammo,mags and parts around. With that said If you dont own a Saiga 12 or and AK rifle then you better get on the ball and get one of these first then get an AR. The general consensus in the survivalist community seems to be that relying on finding ammo/parts in a SHTF situation is a very bad idea. You should assume that you will have access only to what you have at the moment of SHTF. If the SHTF so fast and hard that there will be ammo lying around for you to find and grab, you might also assume that there will be weapons just lying around too. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) PTR-32 Rifle. It's chambered for the 7.62x39 round and takes standard AK-47 magazines. Originally desinged by Heckler & Koch as the HK91 Rifle for .308/7.62.51. Enough said (IMHO). . . . Edited January 2, 2011 by Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrutalGardener 205 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) PTR-32 Rifle. It's chambered for the 7.62x39 round and takes standard AK-74 magazines. Originally desinged by Heckler & Koch as the HK91 Rifle for .308/7.62.51. Enough said (IMHO). . . . "Weight: 9.8 lbs" No offense, but why would get this heavy beast over an SGL21 or something?!? Out of a fetish for German things? I mean, a PTR-91 I get... it makes for a nice DMR with $1 mags, but PTR-31, IMO, is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Same with that announced Sig 7.62x39 mm... EDIT: For reference, an SGL21 weighs 7.3 lbs Edited January 2, 2011 by SpetsnazGRU Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kliegl 304 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) The M1A is not complex. I'd suggest examining the browning automatic rifle short piston system if you want something with a lot of parts. (Like 26, in field stripped condition, as per my FNAR) In fact, if you count the firing pin spring as a part, and both roller bearings as parts the HK roller recoil action has one more moving part than the M1A piston system. Also I think my HK91 is heavier than my M1A. Now, cleaning the HK is quicker, but the HK gets dirtier than the M1A, so it's a draw. My main complaint about the delayed roller recoil action is that it dents the brass and sends them into whatever the next county happens to be on your right, although it is a good action. Either an M1A or some cloned G3 design, whether it be CETME or PTR would be fine. I'd stay away from chambering in 7.62x39. It's one thing to have it in a rifle designed for it from step one and one that is historically appropriate, but putting it in a German derived rifle is just stupid, both from a view of ballistics, and historical perspective. Edit: Heavier rifles often shoot more accurately. I don't notice an extra pound unless I'm carrying it five miles or so. Edited January 2, 2011 by Kliegl Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) "Weight: 9.8 lbs" No offense, but why would get this heavy beast over an SGL21 or something?!? Out of a fetish for German things? I mean, a PTR-91 I get... it makes for a nice DMR with $1 mags, but PTR-32, IMO, is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Same with that announced Sig 7.62x39 mm... EDIT: For reference, an SGL21 weighs 7.3 lbs No offense taken . Yep, the PTR-32 isn't light compared to other 16" barreled carbines. . . but what are ya, a pansy??? (just kidding; no offense intended). It has a heavier/thicker than standard barrel which in a small part is from where the weight is derived, but that thicker barrel allegedly provides for better accuracy. Yep, pretty much a fetish for superlative German engineered things. IMO you've got it all wrong regarding ". . .is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist" (but of course you're entitled to your opinion, regardless as to how wrong you may be). I propose that few things could be better than a rifle that shoots the comparatively inexpensive 7.62x39 round and takes the prolific AK-47 magazine, but was designed and engineered around the x51 cartridge. Edited January 2, 2011 by Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
super jim 14 Posted January 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Thanks, all feedback is giving me food for thought. Gun show coming up in 2 weeks. I think I like the idea of a larger cal gun since I don't have one. The Saiga .308 is priced good (I guess around $450.00) but then by the time I convert it and dress it up, I've got at least $800.00 in it. I can get a DPMS custom built in .308 for around $1,000 which is also a good deal I think. And either of these deserves decent optics so I'll have to research that a bit also. Edited January 2, 2011 by super jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
super jim 14 Posted January 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 Leaning this way: Panther DPMS LR308T http://www.tucsonguns.com/DPMS_AR-10_review.php http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=4853 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 I would go with the AR-15 in 5.56 because when the SHTF there will be plenty of ammo,mags and parts around. Positively laying all over the place. Just walking down the street, you will trip over AR mags in SHTF. ;-) I don't believe that we will experience any sort of SHTF so bad that rifles are able to be carried openly, much less will the situation will such that our weapons, ammos and parts will be so worn out/expended that we will have to scavenge for replacements. HOWEVER, I realize that although really ugly SHTF scenarios are unlikely, they are not impossible. So I aim to stock up all that I might need and don't count on procuring things from others. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) super jim.. Mine was $996 from Nelson Tactical.. with A3 and 16" Hvy bbl. w/4 position stock.. Come like this though for $996.. I had mine in-hand in 3 days.. Al Edited January 3, 2011 by YWHIC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 super jim.. Mine was $996 from Nelson Tactical.. with A3 and 16" Hvy bbl. w/4 position stock.. Come like this though for $996.. I had mine in-hand in 3 days.. Al Hi Al, Nice looking setup. How are you finding reliability so far? The AR in 308 does not have a great reputation in that regard. Jim 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 Jim_Digriz.. well I got 220 rounds thru her.. in just 2 outings.. used remington Corelokt, Hornady SST & TAP, and Tula 150gr FMJ.. (about 160 rounds of just that).. ZERO problems.. I had heard the DPMS factory mags stunk.. I sold them for $45 and bought these PMags SR-20's for $28/each as they are NJ compliant (aka 15 rounds) which is where I shoot 99% of the time.. I grabbed the older EoTech 552 from Ebay for $150 and the other stuff new.. got about $1500 into it.. I have 500 rounds of ammo here to feed her if the need arises over the winter.. Darn range closed today.. so that and my Saiga and my EZ9 have to wait.. Al Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 Jim_Digriz.. well I got 220 rounds thru her.. in just 2 outings.. used remington Corelokt, Hornady SST & TAP, and Tula 150gr FMJ.. (about 160 rounds of just that).. ZERO problems.. I had heard the DPMS factory mags stunk.. I sold them for $45 and bought these PMags SR-20's for $28/each as they are NJ compliant (aka 15 rounds) which is where I shoot 99% of the time.. I grabbed the older EoTech 552 from Ebay for $150 and the other stuff new.. got about $1500 into it.. I have 500 rounds of ammo here to feed her if the need arises over the winter.. Darn range closed today.. so that and my Saiga and my EZ9 have to wait.. Al Thanks Al. I'll be interested to hear any further reports on the matter. Have you fired it yet with the EOTech? I'm curious how well you can do with an AR and a 1 MOA dot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 Fired it at 25 yards and a few LOB's at 100 yards.. shooting under 3" thus far from a front BAG.. Still tweaking the adjustments.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bill3542 4 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 for any serious work there is only one rifle. FAL in .308. they will take serious abuse, are piston driven,easy to clean, and still easy to get parts for. I have 4, all are rebuilds from kit guns on semi-auto recievers. they range from like new to the truck beater gun thats had over 3000 rds put through it since rebuild. if i want to shoot poodles its .223, if i want to deal with 2 legged vermin past 300 yds in a SHTF scenario thens its a FAL rifle in .308 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
danklab 57 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 I'm in the same boat as you man.. trying to figure out what my upcoming gun purchase will be. Don't really need anything in particular.. got a couple hunting rifles, an AR, AK's, & 12 gauges so I'm pretty well covered. I've been considering something in .308 though, don't own anything in that caliber. I'd say, if you want a .308, take into consideration the money you have to spend on it and what you want to do with it. If you're going to feed it the cheapest .308 possible, the saiga might be the way to go. If you want something more accurate to shoot more expensive loads out of.. an AR-10 with a 20" heavy barrel and good scope might be the way to go if you want to stay with semi-auto. Or you could go with a Remington 700 if you want a good bolt action. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
super jim 14 Posted January 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 [ will probably go to the gun show in Columbia SC Jan. 15 or 16 to look at and handle few rifles. At this point I"m leaning heavily towards this: http://www.snipercentral.com/dpms308.htm LR-.308B available for under a grand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Leaning this way: Panther DPMS LR308T http://www.tucsonguns.com/DPMS_AR-10_review.php http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=4853 I love mine, it's a keeper. Usually shoot it at 565 yrds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
super jim 14 Posted January 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Sweet, 1mile50. 24" barrle? What brand scope and bipod do you have mounted? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Yes, 24". The scope is a NF NXS 5.5-22x56mm. I bought it back in '01. The bipod is a Harris. The scope has the NP-R2 reticle, as pictured. The marks are 2moa divisions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Arik 565 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Aim has DSA Fals for $999 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) One disappointment that I did have with my DPMS LR-308 rifle was the trigger. It sucked. I bought and installed a Timney unit to fix that. Edited January 9, 2011 by 1mile50 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
super jim 14 Posted January 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Bad news. I have to hit the brakes on this idea for now. My wife lost her job today. We thought it might happen due to an aquisition of her former company. She was the financial/accounting manager and the new company will handle all the accounting in their home office in Knoxville, TN. So, she's looking for a new job in the Charlotte, NC or Rock Hill, SC area. I know I'm bias, but a company could not find a more dedicated and honester employee than her. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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