So, What's The Deal?

[scavenger 0]

I've looked through these forums and across the internet but I haven't been able to get a good lead on any final say on the matter. I don't want to miss out on my chance on acquiring one of these Saigas but with prices shooting through the roof and money being tight, I'd really like to know for sure what the deal is before I jump on a Saiga like there is no tomorrow. I've been reading over http://www.atf.gov/p...in-shotguns.pdf and apparently shit's gonna be hitting the fan for a lot of different kinds of shotguns, and not just the Saiga. It's obvious that they're targeting it, but with legislation and all the paperwork that has to be done will they really come to be banned within the near future? Just having a clear-cut answer, if there is one, would be nice. If there's a topic I missed, feel free to direct me there. Thanks!

 

In other news, I'll probably grab ahold of a Saiga 12 from K-VAR (SGL12-03). Thoughts?

[a81lp 5]

Found myself in the same situation as you. Always wanted one, no money.... I bought one last week, and damn glad I did. I say get one if you can.

[a81lp 5]

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=62491

[KC913 324]

That rail system Arsenal uses is pretty much the ugliest thing ever mounted on a Saiga 12. The SGL12-02 isn't bad, though.

[scavenger 0]

That rail system Arsenal uses is pretty much the ugliest thing ever mounted on a Saiga 12. The SGL12-02 isn't bad, though.

 

I wasn't too fond of the railing on the barrel myself, but thought it'd be decent until I can do an actual rail system on the Saiga. I'm really dreading changing the trigger group for one reason or another, but to save money I might just end up going with the SGL12-02 and worry about any sort of rail system in the future.

[KC913 324]

That rail system Arsenal uses is pretty much the ugliest thing ever mounted on a Saiga 12. The SGL12-02 isn't bad, though.

 

I wasn't too fond of the railing on the barrel myself, but thought it'd be decent until I can do an actual rail system on the Saiga. I'm really dreading changing the trigger group for one reason or another, but to save money I might just end up going with the SGL12-02 and worry about any sort of rail system in the future.

 

With that handguard retainer Arsenal uses, it wouldn't be too hard to add a small piece of rail under the gas block where the handguard retainer attaches.

[Jeep297 20]

Buy one from KVAR if you really want one. I bought two last week and don't regret it at all. Realistically, prices are only going to be going up in the near future until this all settles out a little more. In my opinion, it's pretty obvious the Saiga is directly in the ATF's sights right now and our only hope is to change their mind during this open time to comment. It's anyones guess if they will listen though.

[KC913 324]

Replied to wrong post. Too many damn tabs open.

Edited January 31, 2011 by KC913

[bigmegina 3]

don't bet on the batfags listening to anything that their subjects {us} have to say.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

They aren't targeting the Saigas at ALL, if anything their new little study HELPED the Saiga by allowing it to be imported with the pistol grip and the fcg in the right place...

[scavenger 0]

Buy one from KVAR if you really want one. I bought two last week and don't regret it at all. Realistically, prices are only going to be going up in the near future until this all settles out a little more. In my opinion, it's pretty obvious the Saiga is directly in the ATF's sights right now and our only hope is to change their mind during this open time to comment. It's anyones guess if they will listen though.

 

I am definitely going to be buying one from them and then doing the conversion myself; I'm just glad with this review period that I get some more time to purchase one rather than get one immediately and be in a tight spot. I'd really be rather bitter about it all if I never got the chance to own one!

[ewoketeer 35]

They aren't targeting the Saigas at ALL, if anything their new little study HELPED the Saiga by allowing it to be imported with the pistol grip and the fcg in the right place...

 

 

I'm not so sure--922r hasn't been changed at this point (Max 10 imported parts if Pg et al installed).

[Zambidis 90]

I've been reading over http://www.atf.gov/p...in-shotguns.pdf and apparently shit's gonna be hitting the fan for a lot of different kinds of shotguns, and not just the Saiga. It's obvious that they're targeting it, but with legislation and all the paperwork that has to be done will they really come to be banned within the near future? Just having a clear-cut answer, if there is one, would be nice. If there's a topic I missed, feel free to direct me there. Thanks!

 

Well that's one reading of that study. Did you read the whole study? Another reading is is could permit the importation of pistol grip S12s since that would seemingly comply with what is denoted in that study as readily adaptable to sporting uses, which is in turn the key to what can be imported and/or what violates 922r. That is as likely or more likely than a full out ban. At worst I see them having to modify the S12 to not be able to accept the domestic magazines that hold more than 5 rounds. That is the one means where by I see them arguing it fails based on whats in the study. The problem there is it would also mean no tube gun for which a magazine extension exists ought to be no longer importable like Benellis. Perhpas they could require the side rail to be removed. That is an inconsequential loss as far as I am concerned. There is only one gun that I am aware of as being pretty much doomed to no longer be able to be imported IF the ATF addopts a rule similar to what the study found. It is not the saiga nor any semi auto or particularly evil shotgun and it will be importable just in an ever so slightly different configuration. There is actually quite a bit to indicate they are not targeting the S12 to bar it from importation in that study. If they were, the easiest thing would have been to say box mags were not readily adaptable to sporting uses. Given the logic they used to determine that certain other features weren't they could have easily reached that conclusion.

 

It is apparent from reading many threads on various gun forums that

 

A) most people have zero understanding of how administrative agencies work or the process whereby they promulgate rules and how those rules relate to statutes passed by congress.

 

That all you need to do is say boo and gun buyers go into an irrational panic

 

C) People have very very little understanding of what 922r says, what the study is doing or says, and what the potential results of the rule really might be.

 

It is actually quite frightening.

[Zambidis 90]

I'll probably grab ahold of a Saiga 12 from K-VAR (SGL12-03). Thoughts?

 

The handguard and ugly arse rail are not worth the money they are asking for that thing.

 

if they end up allowing PG configuration guns I will laugh at all the folks that panic bought (of course if is some how adverse, which seems unlikely for a number of reasons) they might end up being justified. This reminds me of the folks that bought WASR10s for $800 in November.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

I've been reading over http://www.atf.gov/p...in-shotguns.pdf and apparently shit's gonna be hitting the fan for a lot of different kinds of shotguns, and not just the Saiga. It's obvious that they're targeting it, but with legislation and all the paperwork that has to be done will they really come to be banned within the near future? Just having a clear-cut answer, if there is one, would be nice. If there's a topic I missed, feel free to direct me there. Thanks!

 

Well that's one reading of that study. Did you read the whole study? Another reading is is could permit the importation of pistol grip S12s since that would seemingly comply with what is denoted in that study as readily adaptable to sporting uses, which is in turn the key to what can be imported and/or what violates 922r. That is as likely or more likely than a full out ban. At worst I see them having to modify the S12 to not be able to accept the domestic magazines that hold more than 5 rounds. That is the one means where by I see them arguing it fails based on whats in the study. The problem there is it would also mean no tube gun for which a magazine extension exists ought to be no longer importable like Benellis. Perhpas they could require the side rail to be removed. That is an inconsequential loss as far as I am concerned. There is only one gun that I am aware of as being pretty much doomed to no longer be able to be imported IF the ATF addopts a rule similar to what the study found. It is not the saiga nor any semi auto or particularly evil shotgun and it will be importable just in an ever so slightly different configuration. There is actually quite a bit to indicate they are not targeting the S12 to bar it from importation in that study. If they were, the easiest thing would have been to say box mags were not readily adaptable to sporting uses. Given the logic they used to determine that certain other features weren't they could have easily reached that conclusion.

 

It is apparent from reading many threads on various gun forums that

 

A) most people have zero understanding of how administrative agencies work or the process whereby they promulgate rules and how those rules relate to statutes passed by congress.

 

That all you need to do is say boo and gun buyers go into an irrational panic

 

C) People have very very little understanding of what 922r says, what the study is doing or says, and what the potential results of the rule really might be.

 

It is actually quite frightening.

 

 

Yeah, what he said...

[Jeep297 20]

If they are not targeting Saigas, why did they choose to include a pic of an MD 20 round drum which isn't accepted in any other gun? Even Bob Ash said this is a worrying sign. Sorry, but anyone who thinks the ATF is trying to improve our situation, especially with Obama appointed officials, is either living in denial or an overly optimistic person in my opinion. I believe our only hope, while slim, is to write in and get support from gun lobbyist like the NRA.

 

 

ETA- Although it probably doesn't mean much, if anything at all, I also talked to KVAR about the possibly of importing one with a pistol grip. They said absolutely not and that the recent ATF study is a very negative sign.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Jeep297

[Zambidis 90]

If they are not targeting Saigas, why did they choose to include a pic of an MD 20 round drum which isn't accepted in any other gun?

 

Have you read the study in whole? Have you read the section on drum magazines. It reads:

 

"Further, drum magazines are generally designed to contain more than 5 rounds. Some contain as many as 20 or more rounds." The foot note refers the reader to exhibt three which is a picture of the MD20. Why is the MD20 pictured. You suggest this is evidence that the S12 by virtue of being able to accept that drum and being the only weapon that does is clearly the target of the this whole study. If that is true it would suggest that the ATF's plan is to declare the saiga cannot be imported because it is not sporting. It would however meet every other criteria listed in the study so the solution would simply be to make a minor change that made it so new production S12s couldn't accept the old style magazine/drum. They could then be imported and under the proposed criteria with a fixed stock and a pistol grip. The after market would likely produce another mag or the change might be one like that to the rifles that is easily remedied by the end user. This is not the best plan if one has the goal of eliminating the S12. It would arguably result in S12 2.0, not no S12s.

 

Why the picture of the drum then? One explanation might be that when one types the search term "shotgun drum" into google and does an image search the very image used is one of the first ones that appears on the first page. It might just be it got selected that way? Honestly I do not know why that specific image is used. Your explanation is not the only one or even the most convincing one IMHO.

 

If this is all about stopping importation of the S12 why is there a lot of indication that ATI will import a similar AR style box mag fed shotgun? Why not more expressly name features that would make the S12 a total no go as opposed to merely requiring a redesign? Do you think about the fact that an interpretation that blocks importation based on the fact the S12 can accept a 3rd party manufactured drum would have some serious issues? It would make it so that any one, say a competing company could offer a drum kit (like those seen for tube guns) and have a competitors import lineup banned from importation. It would also require by the same logic that any gun that could readily accept a magazine more than 5 rounds would be on the chop block, this means any imported gun with an extension available.

 

 

Maybe a future rule will affect saigas but requires an extra step from whats in the study and even then it would perhaps only cause a design change. So you'll forgive me if I do not think that the argument the study is clearly aimed at the S12 is a slam dunk.

 

Sorry, but anyone who thinks the ATF is trying to improve our situation, especially with Obama appointed officials

 

Are you referring to the Acting Director Melson, who's title has the word "acting" in it because Traver, who President Obama would like to appoint, has not been confirmed by the senate? Who specifically are you referring to?

 

 

 

Even Bob Ash said this is a worrying sign.

 

With all do respect to Mr. Ash who has a lot of Saiga knowledge, what is his experience and credentials with respect to administrative law? Also you probably should link to his comment so it can be viewed in the context it was given.

 

 

ETA- Although it probably doesn't mean much, if anything at all, I also talked to KVAR about the possibly of importing one with a pistol grip. They said absolutely not and that the recent ATF study is a very negative sign.

 

You mean one of the only places with Saigas in stock, who is profiting nicely from the doom and gloom, didn't suggest that a superior product might be on the horizon. They suggested to a would be buyer or recent purchaser that buying from them right now at a high price was the most prudent move? Hmmm that seems, well, predictable.

 

With whom at KVAR did you speak? What is his or her bases that the study is a negative sign. Why did he or she say there is no possibility of a PG import? How do you jive that with ATIs announcement that they WILL be importing a PG box fed 12 guage shotgun? You'll forgive for questioning the reliability of an unnamed source which purportedly works for a company with a pecuniary interest in the view the source supposedly posited

 

I don't know what the end result of all this will be. I am however suggesting people actually take a moment to think, inform themselves, check some sources and evaluate credibility, and then think some more. What I have seen from most people online is more akin to:

 

BAN!!!!! OBAMA!ATF!WTF!OMG BAN!OMG! OH SH!T PANIC, END OF THE WORLD, BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE AFTER US, HIDE YOUR GUNS, DESTRUTIVE DEVICES CONFISCATION PANIC BUY NOW!!

 

Maybe the latter is correct, then again maybe it is the $800 WASR all over again IDK.

[454496 71]

I still think this is all about the money. The ATF has to show that they are doing new stuff so they will not get their 12 billion plus budget cut.

 

I bet the Dept. of Energy, CIA, FBI, Border Patrol, etc. are also trying to show they are doing new stuff also so their budgets will not get cut.

 

Its all about the money with the hired help now.

 

I would not be surprised it the ATF said that this Study cost 50 to 100 million.

Edited February 2, 2011 by 454496

[Jeep297 20]

If they are not targeting Saigas, why did they choose to include a pic of an MD 20 round drum which isn't accepted in any other gun?

 

Have you read the study in whole? Have you read the section on drum magazines. It reads:

 

"Further, drum magazines are generally designed to contain more than 5 rounds. Some contain as many as 20 or more rounds." The foot note refers the reader to exhibt three which is a picture of the MD20. Why is the MD20 pictured. You suggest this is evidence that the S12 by virtue of being able to accept that drum and being the only weapon that does is clearly the target of the this whole study. If that is true it would suggest that the ATF's plan is to declare the saiga cannot be imported because it is not sporting. It would however meet every other criteria listed in the study so the solution would simply be to make a minor change that made it so new production S12s couldn't accept the old style magazine/drum. They could then be imported and under the proposed criteria with a fixed stock and a pistol grip. The after market would likely produce another mag or the change might be one like that to the rifles that is easily remedied by the end user. This is not the best plan if one has the goal of eliminating the S12. It would arguably result in S12 2.0, not no S12s.

 

Why the picture of the drum then? One explanation might be that when one types the search term "shotgun drum" into google and does an image search the very image used is one of the first ones that appears on the first page. It might just be it got selected that way? Honestly I do not know why that specific image is used. Your explanation is not the only one or even the most convincing one IMHO.

 

If this is all about stopping importation of the S12 why is there a lot of indication that ATI will import a similar AR style box mag fed shotgun? Why not more expressly name features that would make the S12 a total no go as opposed to merely requiring a redesign? Do you think about the fact that an interpretation that blocks importation based on the fact the S12 can accept a 3rd party manufactured drum would have some serious issues? It would make it so that any one, say a competing company could offer a drum kit (like those seen for tube guns) and have a competitors import lineup banned from importation. It would also require by the same logic that any gun that could readily accept a magazine more than 5 rounds would be on the chop block, this means any imported gun with an extension available.

 

 

Maybe a future rule will affect saigas but requires an extra step from whats in the study and even then it would perhaps only cause a design change. So you'll forgive me if I do not think that the argument the study is clearly aimed at the S12 is a slam dunk.

 

Sorry, but anyone who thinks the ATF is trying to improve our situation, especially with Obama appointed officials

 

Are you referring to the Acting Director Melson, who's title has the word "acting" in it because Traver, who President Obama would like to appoint, has not been confirmed by the senate? Who specifically are you referring to?

 

 

 

Even Bob Ash said this is a worrying sign.

 

With all do respect to Mr. Ash who has a lot of Saiga knowledge, what is his experience and credentials with respect to administrative law? Also you probably should link to his comment so it can be viewed in the context it was given.

 

 

ETA- Although it probably doesn't mean much, if anything at all, I also talked to KVAR about the possibly of importing one with a pistol grip. They said absolutely not and that the recent ATF study is a very negative sign.

 

You mean one of the only places with Saigas in stock, who is profiting nicely from the doom and gloom, didn't suggest that a superior product might be on the horizon. They suggested to a would be buyer or recent purchaser that buying from them right now at a high price was the most prudent move? Hmmm that seems, well, predictable.

 

With whom at KVAR did you speak? What is his or her bases that the study is a negative sign. Why did he or she say there is no possibility of a PG import? How do you jive that with ATIs announcement that they WILL be importing a PG box fed 12 guage shotgun? You'll forgive for questioning the reliability of an unnamed source which purportedly works for a company with a pecuniary interest in the view the source supposedly posited

 

I don't know what the end result of all this will be. I am however suggesting people actually take a moment to think, inform themselves, check some sources and evaluate credibility, and then think some more. What I have seen from most people online is more akin to:

 

BAN!!!!! OBAMA!ATF!WTF!OMG BAN!OMG! OH SH!T PANIC, END OF THE WORLD, BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE AFTER US, HIDE YOUR GUNS, DESTRUTIVE DEVICES CONFISCATION PANIC BUY NOW!!

 

Maybe the latter is correct, then again maybe it is the $800 WASR all over again IDK.

 

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion on this but we'll all find out soon enough. Usually I'm a positive person but I believe this is not going to be good news. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Either way though I have everything I want/need and don't regret any of my purchases. I also agree that KVAR has a dog is this fight which is why I said it probably doesn't mean anything. As for Bob Ash's comment, he stated "DK: Yes, it's possible that they could halt importation of the Saiga based on this ruling. They made a list of things that make a shotgun non-sporting, and one of those things was the ability to accept a drum mag. They even showed an MD-20 as an example. It's pretty troubling."

The quote came from here: http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum.posts&forum=2&thread=1760719&page=9

[roachtron 49]

I don't see anything happening after the NRA posted there stand on importation. http://www.opposingviews.com/i/nra-congress-must-change-firearm-import-law If anything I see saigas being imported someday in there normal configuration.

 

 

[Mr Polytech 3]

The problem here is not 'just' the ATF study...From what I hear, Izhmash is bankrupt; broke; finished...They have been talking about selling the licensing for Saiga small arms to either Molot or Baikal; but nothing has been decided... Yes, Izhmash acquired Molot as the result of a big lawsuit a few years ago; but they have sold it off to another Russian industrial concern...

 

So, what it all comes down to is will they be legal to import if and when they are manufactured again??? Kvar is totally out. However, Gilberts Guns has the IZ 109's for $569...Yes, I know it sounds expensive, considering Lew Hortons had a ton of them in stock @ only $419 about two weeks ago; but there is a very good chance that these may go the route of the Molot Vepr AK's- basically very likely that they will not be seen imported into the U.S. again. Taking these facts into consideration, I bought 3 from Gilberts today...In a way, I felt bad about having to pay that much; but on the other hand I feel that it was worth it, considering. At least their shipping is reasonable (unlike KVAR), it cost me $53.60 to have 3 shipped to MT from Georgia or where ever the hell Gilberts is.

[roachtron 49]

I guess we will see what happens. The vice president of the russian american armory doesn't seem to worried thought. http://www.youtube.c...udjRUuXHwJs9MKA Displaying them at shot show and stating an msrp of $550. Hell if it does happen raa is supposed to be bringing in the mka 1919 anyway.

Edited February 3, 2011 by roachtron

[glocktogo 1]

Well I finally got around to reading the entire "Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns". Besides setting an example of how to use as many words as possible to say a fairly simple thing, it seems to me that the Saiga should remain on the list of importable shotguns. It doesn't have a separate pistol grip (as imported), it doesn't come with a magazine exceeding 5 rounds (as imported), it doesn't have an integrated rail system (as imported), it doesn't come with a forward pistol grip (as imported), and it's bulk receiver measurements and overall weight do not exceed the standards for importation. While it's certainly ugly (as imported), it's overall dimensions and handling characteristics fall well within those of any traditional semi-auto sporting shotgun. You could even argue that by locating the ammunition supply under the receiver rather than under the barrel, it enhances the pointability and swingability of the gun for skeet, trap and sporting clays, as well as general hunting.

 

They have obviously added the Saiga drum magazine manufactured in the U.S. because they want to make hay over the detachable magazine of the Saiga. But I believe they're making a logical fallacy in that argument. As imported, the Saiga meets all the "sporting purpose" standards of the 68' GCA. If it didn't, they never would have allowed it to be imported in the first place. Nothing in the two subsequent studies really changes that. If they try to bring up the "adaptability" of the Saiga into a "military" configuration once it gets here, then the counter-argument to that is that there's nothing in the 68' GCA that bans manufacture of "military" configuration firearms here in the U.S. Since it doesn't get "made" in that configuration until it's already here, then the 68' GCA doesn't apply. In this context, all the 68' GCA addresses is the importation of "non-sporting" firearms, not their manufacture or assembly in the U.S.

 

BATFE is free to pursue 922® violations if they so choose, as that's the "tool" Congress has given them. We all know that BATFE and the DOJ are loathe to pursue 922® cases, because many believe they will get laughed out of court. We all need to focus our efforts on exposing the logical fallacy of banning the Saiga, rather than ineffectively arguing that USPSA is a "sporting purpose". That dog won't hunt, at least not during this study.

[TexasTech 32]

I still think this is all about the money. The ATF has to show that they are doing new stuff so they will not get their 12 billion plus budget cut.

 

I bet the Dept. of Energy, CIA, FBI, Border Patrol, etc. are also trying to show they are doing new stuff also so their budgets will not get cut.

 

Its all about the money with the hired help now.

 

I would not be surprised it the ATF said that this Study cost 50 to 100 million.

 

 

Actually the Fed Budget was cut to the same $ as fiscal 2008. All Fed agencies have issued a two year hiring freeze. Study or not money will be tight for the next two years

[csspecs 1,987]

They had a place where people can comment. I sent pictures of a hunting trip I was on two years ago. Very single shotgun had a folding stock and forward pistol grip. Swamp hunting is still hunting!

 

Included pictures of the back of the jeep with all the guns, with the stocks folded they just fit inside the back.

 

Will they listen? Doubtful.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

I've gotta say, K-Var's rail may be ugly as shit, but I really like its size, weight and placement. Personally I prefer a lightweight polymer handguard with a small rail like K-Var's for a light instead of a larger, heavier full-size quad rail.