lbsrdi 1,078 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Ok good, I'm glad I'm wrong. I was afraid you went crazy removing material. I just don't want you to do anything to damage it. It is hard to look at pictures and diagnose a specific problem or come to accurate conclusions. You will get it running good eventually I hope. As long as you end up loving your S12 like I do, I'm happy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 You should put the Dremel down and step away from the gun! It does look like you took the Dremel to the Extractor slot edge, you're not supposed to do that. And you definately shouldn't be grinding down the edge of the chamber. Same with grinding the sharp edge off of the extractor itself. Stop experimenting with grinding on things! The gun is manufactured to be fully functional from the factory. Tweaking and polishing can be good, but reshaping things with the Dremel can be very bad. Not trying to be an ass, but it just seems like you are frustrated and desperately grinding on parts at random trying to make it better. At this point, my advice is to box up the gun and ship it to Cadiz to have Tom evaluate what the problem is and if there is any damage from your tinkering. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
squid44883 4 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) You should put the Dremel down and step away from the gun! It does look like you took the Dremel to the Extractor slot edge, you're not supposed to do that. And you definately shouldn't be grinding down the edge of the chamber. Same with grinding the sharp edge off of the extractor itself. Stop experimenting with grinding on things! The gun is manufactured to be fully functional from the factory. Tweaking and polishing can be good, but reshaping things with the Dremel can be very bad. Not trying to be an ass, but it just seems like you are frustrated and desperately grinding on parts at random trying to make it better. At this point, my advice is to box up the gun and ship it to Cadiz to have Tom evaluate what the problem is and if there is any damage from your tinkering. I agree ... minor "tweaking" is acceptable, but if you start grinding metal away and are still having issues, I would also suggest sending it to someone who has worked on hundreds of these things and knows what to look for. I am a nube, but judging by the shell deformation in your pick, it looks to me like the feed ramp is indeed too steep and additional work needs done - hopefully by a pro. To be honest, I was having the same issues with my gun at first, but I found it to be due to my "tweaking" of my 12 round stick mag. I have the JTE magwell on my gun and you have to shave away some of the ridges on the outside of the mag to get it to insert into the magwell. By doing this shaving, I removed too much of the ridges, which allowed the mag to "sag" in the rear - which increased the feed angle very slightly. The end result was my shells feeding into the barrel only partially, almost identical to what yours are doing. To fix this issue, I took tape and created a "pond" on the side of the mag that needed material added. I then used Lock-tite brand flexible rubber compound and filled the pond and let it cure. After testing the mag out I realized that I needed more added, so I repeated the process. The second time ... problem solved. Perfect feeds every time. This stuff is like concrete also. It is barely flexible, and dificult to cut and trim, but it works perfect for the application. Also, it dries clear as my mags are. Just my 2 cents with your issue. Edited February 12, 2011 by Squid 44883 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Torqued 8 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 I think at this point I am going to do nothing like has been advised. Im going to stick to Federal ammo and see what happens. About the only thing I may try is increasing the spring tension on the MD20 and see if that helps. I think that might just give the shell a bit more "pop" into the chamber, and may get the angle a little less steep. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Also, only use ammo your gun likes. +1...good advice Cobra! Stay far away from the cheapo low brass crap That's all I can afford to shoot, LOL. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) And you definately shouldn't be grinding down the edge of the chamber. I do it to all my guns, little bit at the throat and a tiny bit on top. Have shot thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds through my guns and never have failures to feed. There is plenty of contact patch for the solid-rim of the shell to be supported, at least by the way I do it. It was probably pretty bad advice to give to the OP though, as he has no experience doing it, and could have easily over done it and fuk'd it up. Edited February 12, 2011 by C&S Metall-Werkes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 The feed foot on the bolt (shown at the top in this pic) must be flat on it's face where it contacts the base of the shell. It looks like it is angled to nearly a knife edge. That is causing your feed problems. The face of that foot needs to be flat and polished. Tony Rumore Tromix 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Yeah that's my take on it too. There are some things that are ok to post "sticky tutorials" on, for just anybody to pick up a dremel and try to do themselves. Re-contouring the critical parts and inner workings of firearms are NOT one of them. This is why I merely suggested that anyone having bad problems with FTF or FTE, just try some better ammo first. If that doesn't work, send the gun or parts off to be worked on by someone experienced. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 That is causing your feed problems. Problem solved This just another reason why Tony is the Saiga king 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) Yeah that's my take on it too. There are some things that are ok to post "sticky tutorials" on, for just anybody to pick up a dremel and try to do themselves. Re-contouring the critical parts and inner workings of firearms are NOT one of them. You are 100% right Cobra. It was a bad post on my part. Edited February 12, 2011 by C&S Metall-Werkes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Yeah that's my take on it too. There are some things that are ok to post "sticky tutorials" on, for just anybody to pick up a dremel and try to do themselves. Re-contouring the critical parts and inner workings of firearms are NOT one of them. You are 100% right Cobra. It was a bad post on my part. Actually I wasn't referring to your post as much as I was the "sticky" that's posted at the top of the S-12 section, which gives people the idea that just anyone who's never had any experience with these guns, can try and copy what they are looking at in pictures, and do very important work on the bolt and carrier...two of the main parts that make these guns either work, or not work. I removed pictures I had posted long before that thread got started, for this exact reason. Everyone wants pics pics pics. Pics are not always enough, and I sure don't want to be blamed if some guy tries to copy something I showed a pic of, and ends up screwing up his gun...or worse. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Torqued 8 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) The feed foot on the bolt (shown at the top in this pic) must be flat on it's face where it contacts the base of the shell. It looks like it is angled to nearly a knife edge. That is causing your feed problems. The face of that foot needs to be flat and polished. Tony Rumore Tromix That is EXACTLY what I was afraid of and why I showed that profile image of the bolt...I saw that the foot seemed to be digging into the shell. I certainly did not intend to do that, and afterwards wasnt sure if it was like that or I had done it on accident. So how much can I safely take off to make that flat? Anyone know of a picture showing this on a "good" bolt? Edited February 12, 2011 by Torqued Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Torqued 8 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) Well, this is a sad day because I think my bolt is fucked. I found some pics of a normal bolt and tried to flatten out the tip, but i couldnt flatten it very much w/out taking away the angle that guides the rim of the shell into the tooth. Now there is so little of a slope there that often the shell gets caught on the foot before it can chamber. Essentially the problem is still the same, but now the shell makes it nearly all the way in before it gets hung up. The foot catches on the rim of the shell rather than the shell locking into the foot. This sucks ass..... Edited February 12, 2011 by Torqued Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Torqued 8 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 So who can fix my royal fuq up? Do I now need a new bolt? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 No, it's not completely fucked. I can weld it up with some heat treatable rod and reprofile it for you. It's no big deal. Just wrap it in a twenty dollar bill and send it in. I'll fix it and get myself a case of beer....your treat. Tony Rumore Tromix 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christopher jasso 1 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 That sounds like a hell of a deal. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
caal 9 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I did all of my reshaping with hand files and went very slow .I used the dremel for polishing only. Tony great of you to offer to fix his problem and for twenty bucks thats a steal.Because it isn't some yahoo with a welder you know what your doing. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 +1 on hand files. That is how I did it also. Very carefully. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kliegl 304 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 The thing is here, Torqued, that you need to decide, right now, that you need help, and quit fucking with the gun. It won't matter a bit if you get some vendor to fix it for you if you go back to fucking with it when you get it home. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Torqued 8 Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 The thing is here, Torqued, that you need to decide, right now, that you need help, and quit fucking with the gun. It won't matter a bit if you get some vendor to fix it for you if you go back to fucking with it when you get it home. Ive already been talking with Tony over email. I will be sending my bolt to him tomorrow. I have NO plans to fuck with anything else at this point. Honestly I dont think I will have a reason to anyway. The gun runs pretty damn good other than this FTF shit, which really seems to happen mainly with shells with more of an edge on the primer, which is why I think the rem shells failed more than the rest. I was an idiot for doing what I did, and this was the first time Ive owned a gun that NEEDED this kind of shit to begin with, and it seemed as if all this shit really was being done by everyone. Its def a lesson learned! That being said, I will still not hesitate to do another Saiga conversion. Other than the BS with this bolt, I am down for converting a rifle this time . Hopefully one that doesnt need any massaging other than the conversion. No doubt about it, I appreciate Tony's help and the fact that he will do it for $20. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christopher jasso 1 Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 Its all good brother. live and Learn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 Hey Jasso, your first name wouldn't be Hugh would it? LOL!!! J/K. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christopher jasso 1 Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 Lol good one sir........and yes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Litlratt1 3 Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Please post a pic after the repair. A what it should look like may be helpful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Torqued 8 Posted February 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 Check out post 46 for some good pics of a typical feed foot. A very big difference between that and mine shown above. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=50571&st=30 Even after Tony's repair its not 100% back to that, but I took the gun to the range yesterday to test it out, and I still had 2 out of 100 Winchester Xpert get hung up on the foot, but just BARELY. I also had 3 Xpert get the tip of the shell caught in the extractor slot. I think its just those shells and the inconsistent lip, rather than a nice round one like the Remington and Federal shells. The 50 Federal i put through it shot flawlessly. No FTFs and not FTEs. For that matter I had no FTEs with any of the 150 shells I shot, which was great . Im going to chalk up the FTF issues I had with the Winchester to just being shitty Winchester shells and just sticking with what I know works best in my gun, and thats Federal. Now I just need to put some high brass through it and see how that goes. I think its time for a Lee Load All so I can put some buck loads together and have some real fun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 I tested the bolt in a new, unmodified gun using Winchester Super Sport ammo. It was feeding perfectly, with the bolt not even slowing down a bit when it went home. Prior to rewelding, I could not get it to feed a single round. Tony 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 (edited) everything looks good so far. I would take the top and bottom edges off (and polish)in the chamber where the rim sits. So you think I should smooth/polish this part? The problem is pretty clear right there in the picture... In the process of creating that ramp, you've given the shell more room to hang up on that ledge. You're going to have to go in there and LIGHTLY polish it up and smooth it down without removing any more metal than absolutely necessary. Judging from your bolt profiling job you seem to like to remove a lot of metal from places that don't need it. You should study up and figure out how the gun works instead of thinking "I'll try this" and hacking a ton of metal off the gun. If you want to "figure things out as you go" do it by first highly polishing something, and cover it with a marker, cycle it some and see where you're getting friction, then taking VERY SMALL bits of, keep checking fit and function. Otherwise you really need to stick to the tried and true methods. I've never seen someone throat a saiga 12 chamber that extreme. I touched up the edges of mine with cratex, but there's no way in hell I'm going to mess with it when it's working perfectly. Also never expect the cheap walmart birdshot to always be 100% when it's being fed into any gun where the bolt rides over the shell and forces it against surfaces with some pressure. The hulls are just too weak to handle all of that with 100% reliability in everyone's gun. I'm certain if you try regular 12 gauge ammo you won't have the problem, just stay away from the garbage. I run federal no.6 birdshot for messing around, and I've never once had any sort of feed or ejection issue and it's $4.60 a box of 25. Edited February 27, 2011 by Tombs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Torqued 8 Posted February 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 I tested the bolt in a new, unmodified gun using Winchester Super Sport ammo. It was feeding perfectly, with the bolt not even slowing down a bit when it went home. Prior to rewelding, I could not get it to feed a single round. Tony Hey Tony! First let me say thx! Like I said, Im perfectly happy with the job you did, and the only ammo I had issues with was the Winchester Xpert. The Federal ran perfectly. The one thing i did have to touch up was after you re-profiled the "ramp", behind where you added the metal, it was very sharp, and was actually slicing the hell out of the shells. I just filed the sharp edge off the side and now its good to go. Im not going to sweat the gun not running Winch perfectly, and given some more break in time, I think t may be fine too. Tombs, If you read the whole thread, I already linked to the "guide", which shows you to do exactly what I did on the throat. Check it here ---> http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=40501 I didnt do that because I thought I knew what I was doing. I did it thinking the dude telling me what to do DID know. Regardless, the throat has nothing to do with the issue I had with the feed foot. Either way, like I said, the gun shot my federal ammunition flawlessly, so Im not messing with anything until that situation changes. Tony, Thx again! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Do NOT wind that drum tighter than 3 full revolutions! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Like I said in the beginning, on the first thread, all you needed to do was break the gun in more, but it sounds like you got it running pretty good, you just took the long way around. Now that you got her running good enjoy your Saiga an have fun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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