TheDriver 23 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 http://defensiveforce.com/blog/2011/02/17/saigas-kind-of-already-illegal-in-virginia/ Hmm. Just saw this posted on Saysuncle.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xitesmai 1 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) http://defensiveforc...al-in-virginia/ Hmm. Just saw this posted on Saysuncle.com Yes that is correct... I read that before I started ordering parts...since I live in VA Its either choose between stick magazines and a folding stock, or drums and other stock configurations (including no stock) I went with the drum and the collapsible stock... Edited February 18, 2011 by Xitesmai Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tktm 13 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 If only criminals had to worry about those kinds of things. That's the kind of nightmare thing that will get a good person thrown in jail while traveling from one state to another. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheDriver 23 Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 If only criminals had to worry about those kinds of things. That's the kind of nightmare thing that will get a good person thrown in jail while traveling from one state to another. Yeah, it's so annoying when nutcases carry out massacres in gun free zones. Maybe we need better signs indicating the gun laws in such areas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xitesmai 1 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 If only criminals had to worry about those kinds of things. That's the kind of nightmare thing that will get a good person thrown in jail while traveling from one state to another. Yeah, it's so annoying when nutcases carry out massacres in gun free zones. Maybe we need better signs indicating the gun laws in such areas. QFT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tktm 13 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 If only criminals had to worry about those kinds of things. That's the kind of nightmare thing that will get a good person thrown in jail while traveling from one state to another. Yeah, it's so annoying when nutcases carry out massacres in gun free zones. Maybe we need better signs indicating the gun laws in such areas. Its even worse when they do it on the governmental / genocidal scale; to bad "preventative laws" only serve to enable it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
physicsnerd 139 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 What's funny is that when I read the law it says not to buy ProMag 12 round drums but you're fine with MD Arms 20 round drums since it says specifically 12 rounds not 12 or more rounds. Bizarre. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xitesmai 1 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 What's funny is that when I read the law it says not to buy ProMag 12 round drums but you're fine with MD Arms 20 round drums since it says specifically 12 rounds not 12 or more rounds. Bizarre. While I will agree with the point of law...I wouldnt risk going to prison to test it... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tktm 13 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 What's funny is that when I read the law it says not to buy ProMag 12 round drums but you're fine with MD Arms 20 round drums since it says specifically 12 rounds not 12 or more rounds. Bizarre. While I will agree with the point of law...I wouldnt risk going to prison to test it... its says "capable of holding twelve shotgun shells", based on that I bet there is someone in Virginia willing to arrest and prosecute you for possessing ANY folding stock Saiga 12 shotgun (with or without the mags in your possession) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xitesmai 1 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 What's funny is that when I read the law it says not to buy ProMag 12 round drums but you're fine with MD Arms 20 round drums since it says specifically 12 rounds not 12 or more rounds. Bizarre. While I will agree with the point of law...I wouldnt risk going to prison to test it... its says "capable of holding twelve shotgun shells", based on that I bet there is someone in Virginia willing to arrest and prosecute you for possessing ANY folding stock Saiga 12 shotgun (with or without the mags in your possession) The term capable refers to the drum magazine...not the shotgun... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ViperRy 7 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Weird law, one not expected out of VA. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
physicsnerd 139 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 What's funny is that when I read the law it says not to buy ProMag 12 round drums but you're fine with MD Arms 20 round drums since it says specifically 12 rounds not 12 or more rounds. Bizarre. While I will agree with the point of law...I wouldnt risk going to prison to test it... its says "capable of holding twelve shotgun shells", based on that I bet there is someone in Virginia willing to arrest and prosecute you for possessing ANY folding stock Saiga 12 shotgun (with or without the mags in your possession) The term capable refers to the drum magazine...not the shotgun... Ah, that helps. Yeah I certainly wouldn't want to give it a whirl! But then I don't plan on moving to VA but it would be nice to get rid of that law. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GONIF 7 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Things like this make me glad I live in Sunny Arizona . What's funny is that when I read the law it says not to buy ProMag 12 round drums but you're fine with MD Arms 20 round drums since it says specifically 12 rounds not 12 or more rounds. Bizarre. While I will agree with the point of law...I wouldnt risk going to prison to test it... its says "capable of holding twelve shotgun shells", based on that I bet there is someone in Virginia willing to arrest and prosecute you for possessing ANY folding stock Saiga 12 shotgun (with or without the mags in your possession) The term capable refers to the drum magazine...not the shotgun... Ah, that helps. Yeah I certainly wouldn't want to give it a whirl! But then I don't plan on moving to VA but it would be nice to get rid of that law. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
busarider 23 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Here's another loop hole! The law said a 12 round drum magazine was illegal. Well just use the 20 round drum and you are fine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xitesmai 1 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) Here's another loop hole! The law said a 12 round drum magazine was illegal. Well just use the 20 round drum and you are fine. Here we go again... Va. Code Ann. § 18.2-308.8. Importation, sale, possession or transfer of Striker 12′s prohibited; penalty. It shall be unlawful for any person to import, sell, possess or transfer the following firearms: the Striker 12, commonly called a "streetsweeper," or any semi-automatic folding stock shotgun of like kind with a spring tension drum magazine capable of holding twelve shotgun shells. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony. This would include a Saiga with a folding stock, equipped with a 20 round drum magazine...since a 20 round drum is capable of holding 12 rounds as well... logic can go a long way fellas....Replies like this could lead someone to getting arrested.... Edited February 19, 2011 by Xitesmai 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paintwagon 18 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 http://defensiveforc...al-in-virginia/ Hmm. Just saw this posted on Saysuncle.com Yes that is correct... I read that before I started ordering parts...since I live in VA Its either choose between stick magazines and a folding stock, or drums and other stock configurations (including no stock) I went with the drum and the collapsible stock... Ive got the same, but this has me a little concerned...Ive seen others on here from Va using drums/nonfolding stocks. Are you pretty comfortable with it? My main concern is a young prosecutor of the other political persuasion wanting to make a name for himself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 There is a very old and true saying goes like this...... "Negligence of the law is no excuse." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
busarider 23 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheDriver 23 Posted February 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 From how I read it kinda sounds like you could (theoretically) have a 20 round (or more) stick mag, as long as it's not a drum..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
busarider 23 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Ah come on now, better safe than sorry! But you know it's just a bunch of that ol bull anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spicoli 12 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 "of like kind" is the key gentlemen. The striker 12 has the drum built-in, doesnt eject shells, doesnt automatically cock the firing pin, etc. My good friend is also a FFL/SOT here in Virginia and says its perfectly legal. Plus..the drum holds 20...exclamation point! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paintwagon 18 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) "of like kind" is the key gentlemen. The striker 12 has the drum built-in, doesnt eject shells, doesnt automatically cock the firing pin, etc. My good friend is also a FFL/SOT here in Virginia and says its perfectly legal. Plus..the drum holds 20...exclamation point! I dunno, but I think 'Of like kind' is anything a juror thinks it is, as well as a young prosecutor. I have a retractable stock, not a folder, but will be getting a fixed stock (the average juror in my town has a tenth grade education, and folding/retractable could be rocket science to him). If the drum is 'capable of holding 12 rounds' its 'capable of holding twelve rounds'. I have the attitude that I want to steer as far away from having to pay a lawyer to convince a jury otherwise, at the potential cost of prison, a class 6 felony and loss of lifetime gun rights. I know its different, but I dont want to test that in front of a jury that might just not like the fact that they arent classified as DD, the way I look, vote, my skin color, or whatever else...Thats just my opinion. Im glad I ran across this article Edited February 20, 2011 by paintwagon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikegraffam 11 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 "of like kind" is the key gentlemen. The striker 12 has the drum built-in, doesnt eject shells, doesnt automatically cock the firing pin, etc. My good friend is also a FFL/SOT here in Virginia and says its perfectly legal. Plus..the drum holds 20...exclamation point! I dunno, but I think 'Of like kind' is anything a juror thinks it is, as well as a young prosecutor. I have a retractable stock, not a folder, but will be getting a fixed stock (the average juror in my town has a tenth grade education, and folding/retractable could be rocket science to him). If the drum is 'capable of holding 12 rounds' its 'capable of holding twelve rounds'. I have the attitude that I want to steer as far away from having to pay a lawyer to convince a jury otherwise, at the potential cost of prison, a class 6 felony and loss of lifetime gun rights. I know its different, but I dont want to test that in front of a jury that might just not like the fact that they arent classified as DD, the way I look, vote, my skin color, or whatever else...Thats just my opinion. Im glad I ran across this article Indeed. It may be 'just your opinion' but it is sound thinking. Too many people view 'the law' in some idealistic sense, where 'right' and 'reasonable' are core features of the process. Ideally, that would be correct; but as you note, personal prejudices, career ambitions of prosecutors, attorney fees, and all manner of other factors come into play. These need to be considered carefully before one hangs the meagre freedoms one has on a nuanced fine point of language. If you get busted with an illegal gun, you lose the freedom you're trying to exercise, and all you do is provide statistical fodder for the anti-gunners. It doesn't matter if the law is stupid. Its the law. It is easy to get righteous about liberty, and the 2nd Amendment; it is easy to say we're Americans and we're supposed to all be free citizens, that we have the right to civil disobedience against unjust laws and so on. And I certainly don't disagree, but I do find it useful to remember that people in America have never been really free. There has always, in every generation, been some group of people fighting to obtain, keep, or regain their liberties and freedoms. Apart from the varied civil rights movements, alcohol had Prohibition, we had some rabid infringement of privacy with McCarthyism, and so on. Liberty has always been a struggle, and it always will be. It couldn't be any other way. Now, if someone is prepared to be arrested for that struggle, well then OK - but instead of providing yet another statistic about scary illegal guns, why not arrange an unsanctioned protest. Get organized and get arrested hounding anti-gun politicians. Best of all, unless you really go all-out, you'll just get charged with a misdemenor and you won't lose your gun rights (you may lose a concealed carry permit, though). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xitesmai 1 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 "of like kind" is the key gentlemen. The striker 12 has the drum built-in, doesnt eject shells, doesnt automatically cock the firing pin, etc. My good friend is also a FFL/SOT here in Virginia and says its perfectly legal. Plus..the drum holds 20...exclamation point! I dunno, but I think 'Of like kind' is anything a juror thinks it is, as well as a young prosecutor. I have a retractable stock, not a folder, but will be getting a fixed stock (the average juror in my town has a tenth grade education, and folding/retractable could be rocket science to him). If the drum is 'capable of holding 12 rounds' its 'capable of holding twelve rounds'. I have the attitude that I want to steer as far away from having to pay a lawyer to convince a jury otherwise, at the potential cost of prison, a class 6 felony and loss of lifetime gun rights. I know its different, but I dont want to test that in front of a jury that might just not like the fact that they arent classified as DD, the way I look, vote, my skin color, or whatever else...Thats just my opinion. Im glad I ran across this article Indeed. It may be 'just your opinion' but it is sound thinking. Too many people view 'the law' in some idealistic sense, where 'right' and 'reasonable' are core features of the process. Ideally, that would be correct; but as you note, personal prejudices, career ambitions of prosecutors, attorney fees, and all manner of other factors come into play. These need to be considered carefully before one hangs the meagre freedoms one has on a nuanced fine point of language. If you get busted with an illegal gun, you lose the freedom you're trying to exercise, and all you do is provide statistical fodder for the anti-gunners. It doesn't matter if the law is stupid. Its the law. It is easy to get righteous about liberty, and the 2nd Amendment; it is easy to say we're Americans and we're supposed to all be free citizens, that we have the right to civil disobedience against unjust laws and so on. And I certainly don't disagree, but I do find it useful to remember that people in America have never been really free. There has always, in every generation, been some group of people fighting to obtain, keep, or regain their liberties and freedoms. Apart from the varied civil rights movements, alcohol had Prohibition, we had some rabid infringement of privacy with McCarthyism, and so on. Liberty has always been a struggle, and it always will be. It couldn't be any other way. Now, if someone is prepared to be arrested for that struggle, well then OK - but instead of providing yet another statistic about scary illegal guns, why not arrange an unsanctioned protest. Get organized and get arrested hounding anti-gun politicians. Best of all, unless you really go all-out, you'll just get charged with a misdemenor and you won't lose your gun rights (you may lose a concealed carry permit, though). well said...QFT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paintwagon 18 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) With a different attorney general it could cost deeearly. That legal battle can be fought by some 25 year old trust fund kid who has an endless supply of grandaddies money, lots of time to waste, and less to loose. Edited February 25, 2011 by paintwagon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
knarsickle 0 Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 What about 12rd stick mag or mod a drum to hold 11? I need a loop hole Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 What about 12rd stick mag or mod a drum to hold 11? I need a loop hole Um, leave Virginia... Problem solved! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
knarsickle 0 Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Wish I could Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paintwagon 18 Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 (edited) I love it here, as ive been here for the most of 41 years. Its no big deal to me, just dont have a folding stock on a gun with a 12 or 20 round drum. 12 round sticks are fine. In fact, Im switching both my stocks to be fixed, and not retractable so there is no discretion. No problemo. Caged, I dont know where you are from, but are you planning on leaving the country if the MD-20 is declared DD by the ATF? Edited February 27, 2011 by paintwagon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
knarsickle 0 Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 Ill be alright as long as there isn't any other dumb insta felonies I don't know about and virginia is a great place to live Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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