2 new Saiga pistons from MD Arms, LTD

[lbsrdi 1,078]

I have several pucks, including the twister puck and KA puck. When I get my booster puck I will be putting them through a series of tests and will report the results. My gun cycles fine so I will be using different gas setting to undergass my system. Also I am interested in finding out which one lasts longer without cleaning and without FTE's.

[yooper14.5 84]

thanks for the link, it looks like we know whos winning this now lol. on the otherhand, KA still makes a good piston, so if your issues arent that bad, but you still need some improvments, they might still be somthing to consider. ive just seen to many people say it does work to believe it doesnt.

[MikeD 541]

Mike, I know the thread is moving fast, but would you mind speaking to my question of wear resistance? Since you've swapped from steel, what kind of lifespan reduction do you expect? It's a $16.00 part so it's ok if it doesn't last as long, but I'd like to know what kind of a difference we are looking at.

Sorry, I don't think ware will be an issue. I might have close to a couple thousand rounds on one sample and it is completely fine with no signs past rub marks which the factory get as well. Also if it ever does ware out just send it back and we will replace it with a new one. I really don't think that will be an issue though. My thought is if someone fire enough rounds on one to ware it out I'd love to see the end result and they deserve a new one!

[MikeD 541]

ok, im lost. i have heard from a lot of people that a KA piston will help cycling. i cant imagine all that is a lie. on the other hand, mike has a outstanding reputation and releases extremely good products, and if he says somthing its probably true. so what i see is a company with a relativly proven product IMO, and a company with a product that is almost guarenteed to do as advertised, and both are discrediting the other. i believe the only way to settle this is a head to head test on a stock saiga, with a video showing the performance, and showing a detailed overview of each puck, and shows each puck being inserted into the gun, so nobody screams sabatoge. also, i say stock saiga, not out of the box saiga, because the gun has to be broken in for a accurate test. just my

I only said the stay clean claims of the KA were not existent in my tests. The KA does slightly increase cycling power. I just don't think the increase is anything close to brag about as increased reliability. It is just too small and most won't see much benifit at all.

 

Also I designed the Booster primarily for those new out of box guns with trouble. It should make the very most of these out of box guns that have ejection problems from the shoulder with the factory piston be able to fire the same stuff from the hip with the Booster. In my opinion there isn't a better show of improvement than that situation. Regardless, I am very confidant the Booster is going to dominate any current piston on the market in cycling power increase! The difference will be night and day. The Booster piston is in a whole new class of pistons.

[MikeD 541]

mike,

I got it, I shot it , it works as described, feels like a toy part it is so light! whats the expected life span in # of rounds? reviewed it on a differ thread for you! I' am not sending it back, just so you know! thanks! :super:

Thanks for a quick report! I was 99.95% sure you would be very satisfied at that the difference would be VERY appearent! Thanks again!

[MikeD 541]

i like the css puck design, also! I think mikes design weight and dish and css 3 groove and tail design would make an awesome puck??? sorry guys this is likely uncalled for! I'll use all three, mikes, css', and the fact. puc and if good ole ka will give me one I'll eval theirs also!

I haven't seen the CSS one yet. I need to check it out.

[MikeD 541]

>>ok, im lost. i have heard from a lot of people that a KA piston will help cycling. i cant imagine all that is a lie.

 

The KA puck is a good US made part. It did improve cycling to a slight degree over the factory part in my gun. Not a night & day difference, just slightly. I suspect Mike's basic stainless puck will perform very close to the KA puck, give or take some small margin. It has the benefit of a much better price point though.

 

The Booster is obviously a different animal......

Yes, Everything you said is exactly right! Everyone should note our stainless piston is comparable to the KA. Like I said too the increase in both the KA and our stainless are slight. The margin of difference between them and the factory is very small so any difference between the KA and MD Arms Stainless is going to be even smaller than that.

 

... the Booster is in a whole new class.

[MikeD 541]

WOW!!! I was just informed by Lauren that we just received a very nasty voicemail from King's Armory... It stated that I exactly copied their design and that although I said their design didn't do anything that mine does, among other ramblings. He also stated I was only a couple hours drive away!

 

King's Armory, Are you kinding me? You can openly bash E-Tac on the twister piston but I can't give my opinion on the KA piston? First off I didn't bash, second off if you don't like what I said don't jack up your claims that are so easily called as BS.

 

And to further point out if you read and look carefully you will see the design is different. First off our design intent and advertised features are totally different and conflicting. Mine are correct and yours are wrong... I had gas chamber volume increase in consideration because it hurts, not help like you advertised. The dished area is smooth and flowing in ours and not choppy and broken like the KA piston. Most importantly if you read our stainless piston info you will see I clearly state that the dished area isn't considered a reliability increaser which it most definately shouldn't be claimed. I think the real issue here is I am now selling a better designed piston than the KA piston for $10 compared to the KA's $30 or so piston and I'm selling a booster piston that will really work as advertised for $16.

 

While we're at it I also want to call complete BS on your reported 1 to 2 thousand rounds fired before cleaning that you state on the KA piston. That has been urking me for a couple years now because it is one of the biggest loads of crap I've seen stated about an aftermarket saiga item. It's your name though I guess. But it is also this spewing of crap that makes me have to better explain why ours is different. Because the BS and distrust transfers over from items that don't live up to the stated claims.

 

What a complete rip off your KA piston has been and you should be ashamed of yourself! At least the Twister piston really does help keep the gun clean a little longer...

 

Do yourself a favor and don't bother calling back.

 

 

well if you actually think the twister puck keeps it cleaner than I will not even bother with your puck, they sent me all three pucks and guess what my little shorty would not cycle with any of them and worse than that after just a hundred rounds it was all gummed up. the factory puck was cleaner than theirs and ran a bit better and the ka puck I have works flawless and I can run hundreds of rounds without having to clean it.

Oh man... You mean a guy that wasn't going to buy a Booster piston isn't going to buy a Booster piston? Now I'm worried... Yeah, you should keep using your KA that is good for 1 to 2 thousands rounds without cleaning that you have to clean after hundreds...

 

well there is a reason for that my s12 is a slug gun and as you should know slugs have a hell of a lot more fouling than 00buck or fed bulk pack so after a few hundred rounds it needs to be cleaned but hey if you really want me to put your puck to the test and tell me it will outperform the ka puck? Remember my s12 has a stock gas system with a 9" barrel, so your puck will cycle bulk fed with this? will your puck cycle slugs more reliably? for it to be reliable would mean i won't have jams or fte with your puck.

The info is there to read... If your having fte with your 9inch gun when using slugs then the work was poorly done and your gun is severly lacking already. If a competent builder did it for you it should cycle bulk stuff with the factory piston (all mine do), lol!!!! Did that guru Glockmonger do the work for you??? You might want to have it looked at by someone that knows what is going on if your having troubles with it...

 

Like I "tried" to tell you guys on the AZ forum... If you want to know something about the saiga-12 you come here, PERIOD!

 

Also, I'll bet the business that the Booster will out preform the KA on reliability any day of the week and I can even take away the dished ring and finish... I never said it was a stay clean piston though and neither should have KA. I have 2 KA and they never kept the gun clean one bit longer! Just so you know we have tested probably 10 different stay clean concepts of our own design and some in multiple variations. None, even free flowing designs did much. The best we had was doubling the time between cleanings and this wasn't consistant. At times even it would clog prematurly... These were also including those with joey tears finishes (joke I made in the AZ thread about KA).

actually no glockmonger has not touched my gun I had my saiga converted and chopped down in '05 way before I joined this site and when I looked for sbsed s12 I did not see anyone doing any at the time, and you really might not want to talk smack about his builds he builds some smooth running guns its just that my s12 is a slug gun and always has been KA does whine but that aside all his components work and if your puck works so great without the dish then why have it in the first place?

You call your gun a slug gun... I think you only call it that because that is all that will run in it. A 9 inch barreled slug gun? As far as Glockmonger... I never said anything about his work, only asked about it... He did rub me the wrong way though. I also stand by my statement that if he doesn't know or hasn't seen some of the things he said then he isn't nearly as up to par on these saiga-12s as he, you, or others think...

 

Oh, I put the dish there for the reasons I stated. It is a slight increase in effiecency. SLIGHT being the key word. If you care to read instead of just typing you can read more details on that. It has nothing at all to do with pressure curve like KA claims on his... You should go back and reread everything in that AZ thread very carefully to see how many times KA contradicts his own claims on somethings... He obviously doesn't read well either and makes many ASSumptions as well. You have to be very careful claiming ASSumtions as fact. Very often it will make you look like an ignorant ASS. It can also border on slander in certain situations. When I state things I have repeatable testing to back it up as fact or I state it is an assumtion and I don't know for sure ( to keep the "ass" lowercase)...

 

 

like I said it was built in 05 and back then nobody was sbsing them, unless you were? I had AZEX convert it and sbs the saiga and it was the first he had sbsed.

 

factory gas system with a 9" bbl. and I doubt your puck would be any better than the etac if anything i would say it is the same...

I going to try and make this my last reply to you as I don't have time to repeat things over and over for some stubborn, close minded, ignorant ass that can't tkae a few minutes to read.

 

First your guns sounds like a pile. Get it fixed by someone that knows what is going on and and start enjoying it rather than making lame ass excuses for it.

 

Last, I doubt the Booster would do anything for your pile as I clearly state it is not intended for guns with missing ports. I can garantee you though that if the Booster can't help you there is no other part available that can. I bet I have a piston design locked away that would fix it for you but that design won't be hitting the market. If you read this thread you can find more details on that and why... The market for such is just to small on top of those reason as most do it right and it isn't needed...

 

To ignore the fact that the Booster is different than anything available before is showing a very small mind. To ASSume it is no different than the twister is just plan dumb on so many levels and helps explains why you have a slug gun instead of a shotgun.

 

If you want to make that slug gun of yours more all purpose then shut up, read up, and man up! If you can do those 3 things we here can help you fix your waste of a Saiga-12 and SBS tax stamp... If you can't then enjoy your slug gun and please remove yourself from all intelligent conversation here...

[Guns Are Great 140]

Okay Mike Got questions? :unsure: the so called diamondized coating ot the puck, is it a dry lube or protectant? because after 275 rounds the puc has a peeling effect in the rear where the piston rod strikes and rear lip before the groove? color change is expected, heating and all but peeling effect? normal or not? works fine and installs and removes easily so? and see my range report! update.

Mike, I know the thread is moving fast, but would you mind speaking to my question of wear resistance? Since you've swapped from steel, what kind of lifespan reduction do you expect? It's a $16.00 part so it's ok if it doesn't last as long, but I'd like to know what kind of a difference we are looking at.

Sorry, I don't think ware will be an issue. I might have close to a couple thousand rounds on one sample and it is completely fine with no signs past rub marks which the factory get as well. Also if it ever does ware out just send it back and we will replace it with a new one. I really don't think that will be an issue though. My thought is if someone fire enough rounds on one to ware it out I'd love to see the end result and they deserve a new one!

Edited March 26, 2011 by Guns Are Great

[MikeD 541]

Okay Mike Got questions? :unsure: the so called diamondized coating ot the puck, is it a dry lube or protectant? because after 275 rounds the puc has a peeling effect in the rear where the piston rod strikes and rear lip before the groove? color change is expected, heating and all but peeling effect? normal or not? works fine and installs and removes easily so?

Mike, I know the thread is moving fast, but would you mind speaking to my question of wear resistance? Since you've swapped from steel, what kind of lifespan reduction do you expect? It's a $16.00 part so it's ok if it doesn't last as long, but I'd like to know what kind of a difference we are looking at.

Sorry, I don't think ware will be an issue. I might have close to a couple thousand rounds on one sample and it is completely fine with no signs past rub marks which the factory get as well. Also if it ever does ware out just send it back and we will replace it with a new one. I really don't think that will be an issue though. My thought is if someone fire enough rounds on one to ware it out I'd love to see the end result and they deserve a new one!

Yes, Some will do this. The finish blistered slightly on the back in the center of the piston. You will find that it will not spread though. Also the finish is pretty meaningless on the back and really even the front. That is why the factory stopped finishing the factory piston completely on all side and only do the outer diameter in hard chrome. The outer diameter is the important area. If you take a knife and scrap the back (like shaving) as you normally would to clean the fouling from the piston you will see it will not spread past a certain point. Also remember if it ever wares out until a point of failure we will gladley replace it. We aren't going any where!

[Guns Are Great 140]

Thanks Mike!! I hope we never have to test the warranty! But To me it is a Definite improvement and success! Your claim is valid. So I will be back for more Products! good drum, good plug, good piston, good shooting, gooood times!!!!!!!!!

Okay Mike Got questions? :unsure: the so called diamondized coating ot the puck, is it a dry lube or protectant? because after 275 rounds the puc has a peeling effect in the rear where the piston rod strikes and rear lip before the groove? color change is expected, heating and all but peeling effect? normal or not? works fine and installs and removes easily so?

Mike, I know the thread is moving fast, but would you mind speaking to my question of wear resistance? Since you've swapped from steel, what kind of lifespan reduction do you expect? It's a $16.00 part so it's ok if it doesn't last as long, but I'd like to know what kind of a difference we are looking at.

Sorry, I don't think ware will be an issue. I might have close to a couple thousand rounds on one sample and it is completely fine with no signs past rub marks which the factory get as well. Also if it ever does ware out just send it back and we will replace it with a new one. I really don't think that will be an issue though. My thought is if someone fire enough rounds on one to ware it out I'd love to see the end result and they deserve a new one!

Yes, Some will do this. The finish blistered slightly on the back in the center of the piston. You will find that it will not spread though. Also the finish is pretty meaningless on the back and really even the front. That is why the factory stopped finishing the factory piston completely on all side and only do the outer diameter in hard chrome. The outer diameter is the important area. If you take a knife and scrap the back (like shaving) as you normally would to clean the fouling from the piston you will see it will not spread past a certain point. Also remember if it ever wares out until a point of failure we will gladley replace it. We aren't going any where!

[Guns Are Great 140]

Hey be sure to post your results! Thanks!

I have several pucks, including the twister puck and KA puck. When I get my booster puck I will be putting them through a series of tests and will report the results. My gun cycles fine so I will be using different gas setting to undergass my system. Also I am interested in finding out which one lasts longer without cleaning and without FTE's.

[MikeD 541]

Okay Mike Got questions? :unsure: the so called diamondized coating ot the puck, is it a dry lube or protectant? because after 275 rounds the puc has a peeling effect in the rear where the piston rod strikes and rear lip before the groove? color change is expected, heating and all but peeling effect? normal or not? works fine and installs and removes easily so? and see my range report! update.

Mike, I know the thread is moving fast, but would you mind speaking to my question of wear resistance? Since you've swapped from steel, what kind of lifespan reduction do you expect? It's a $16.00 part so it's ok if it doesn't last as long, but I'd like to know what kind of a difference we are looking at.

Sorry, I don't think ware will be an issue. I might have close to a couple thousand rounds on one sample and it is completely fine with no signs past rub marks which the factory get as well. Also if it ever does ware out just send it back and we will replace it with a new one. I really don't think that will be an issue though. My thought is if someone fire enough rounds on one to ware it out I'd love to see the end result and they deserve a new one!

I just saw where you said the rear ring had a spot on it. This was expected on some guns as well. If you look into your empty gas block in the very rear you will see a groove. Sometimes the guns have a VERY slight raised area (burr) from cutting this groove. On the return stroke the burr can grab the edge of the rear ring at the groove. It shouldn't have any real adverse effects. It is easy to debur or chamfer the edge in the back of the gas block to prevent this but for me to tell someone to I won't. We are talking typically less than a .001" burr... I am afraid if I told someone to check for something like this would cause some to bore out their entire gas block over... I wouldn't risk telling someone to do that because the ware from this is really superficial and is not going to effect cycling anyways. In some guns you will also find this same type of burr on the large port in the gas block and above it from the front site hole. The piston only passes these points on insertion and removal though and don't cycle past them when firing. Some may feel their pistons grab at these areas when installing and removing, this is basically any piston available you can feel it with.

[Guns Are Great 140]

Thanks! I'm just going to shoot the crap out of it! like anything with proper maintenance, it will adapt over be over come!

Okay Mike Got questions? :unsure: the so called diamondized coating ot the puck, is it a dry lube or protectant? because after 275 rounds the puc has a peeling effect in the rear where the piston rod strikes and rear lip before the groove? color change is expected, heating and all but peeling effect? normal or not? works fine and installs and removes easily so? and see my range report! update.

Mike, I know the thread is moving fast, but would you mind speaking to my question of wear resistance? Since you've swapped from steel, what kind of lifespan reduction do you expect? It's a $16.00 part so it's ok if it doesn't last as long, but I'd like to know what kind of a difference we are looking at.

Sorry, I don't think ware will be an issue. I might have close to a couple thousand rounds on one sample and it is completely fine with no signs past rub marks which the factory get as well. Also if it ever does ware out just send it back and we will replace it with a new one. I really don't think that will be an issue though. My thought is if someone fire enough rounds on one to ware it out I'd love to see the end result and they deserve a new one!

I just saw where you said the rear ring had a spot on it. This was expected on some guns as well. If you look into your empty gas block in the very rear you will see a groove. Sometimes the guns have a VERY slight raised area (burr) from cutting this groove. On the return stroke the burr can grab the edge of the rear ring at the groove. It shouldn't have any real adverse effects. It is easy to debur or chamfer the edge in the back of the gas block to prevent this but for me to tell someone to I won't. We are talking typically less than a .001" burr... I am afraid if I told someone to check for something like this would cause some to bore out their entire gas block over... I wouldn't risk telling someone to do that because the ware from this is really superficial and is not going to effect cycling anyways. In some guns you will also find this same type of burr on the large port in the gas block and above it from the front site hole. The piston only passes these points on insertion and removal though and don't cycle past them when firing. Some may feel their pistons grab at these areas when installing and removing, this is basically any piston available you can feel it with.

[lucifer 11]

Thing is, we currently lack video or testimonial proof that it works any better than the ka puck. I trust that mike isnt lying when he says his is better, but i want some sort of proof first. No offense meant toward either manufacturer.

 

There are a couple of testimonials in this thread:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/65191-md-arms-booster-puck-range-results/

 

Results look promising so far, I'll try to break the camera out if I get my hands on one next week. Won't have a KA to compate it to though, just the factory.

 

he was asking about video not testimonials...

[lucifer 11]

WOW!!! I was just informed by Lauren that we just received a very nasty voicemail from King's Armory... It stated that I exactly copied their design and that although I said their design didn't do anything that mine does, among other ramblings. He also stated I was only a couple hours drive away!

 

King's Armory, Are you kinding me? You can openly bash E-Tac on the twister piston but I can't give my opinion on the KA piston? First off I didn't bash, second off if you don't like what I said don't jack up your claims that are so easily called as BS.

 

And to further point out if you read and look carefully you will see the design is different. First off our design intent and advertised features are totally different and conflicting. Mine are correct and yours are wrong... I had gas chamber volume increase in consideration because it hurts, not help like you advertised. The dished area is smooth and flowing in ours and not choppy and broken like the KA piston. Most importantly if you read our stainless piston info you will see I clearly state that the dished area isn't considered a reliability increaser which it most definately shouldn't be claimed. I think the real issue here is I am now selling a better designed piston than the KA piston for $10 compared to the KA's $30 or so piston and I'm selling a booster piston that will really work as advertised for $16.

 

While we're at it I also want to call complete BS on your reported 1 to 2 thousand rounds fired before cleaning that you state on the KA piston. That has been urking me for a couple years now because it is one of the biggest loads of crap I've seen stated about an aftermarket saiga item. It's your name though I guess. But it is also this spewing of crap that makes me have to better explain why ours is different. Because the BS and distrust transfers over from items that don't live up to the stated claims.

 

What a complete rip off your KA piston has been and you should be ashamed of yourself! At least the Twister piston really does help keep the gun clean a little longer...

 

Do yourself a favor and don't bother calling back.

 

 

well if you actually think the twister puck keeps it cleaner than I will not even bother with your puck, they sent me all three pucks and guess what my little shorty would not cycle with any of them and worse than that after just a hundred rounds it was all gummed up. the factory puck was cleaner than theirs and ran a bit better and the ka puck I have works flawless and I can run hundreds of rounds without having to clean it.

Oh man... You mean a guy that wasn't going to buy a Booster piston isn't going to buy a Booster piston? Now I'm worried... Yeah, you should keep using your KA that is good for 1 to 2 thousands rounds without cleaning that you have to clean after hundreds...

 

well there is a reason for that my s12 is a slug gun and as you should know slugs have a hell of a lot more fouling than 00buck or fed bulk pack so after a few hundred rounds it needs to be cleaned but hey if you really want me to put your puck to the test and tell me it will outperform the ka puck? Remember my s12 has a stock gas system with a 9" barrel, so your puck will cycle bulk fed with this? will your puck cycle slugs more reliably? for it to be reliable would mean i won't have jams or fte with your puck.

The info is there to read... If your having fte with your 9inch gun when using slugs then the work was poorly done and your gun is severly lacking already. If a competent builder did it for you it should cycle bulk stuff with the factory piston (all mine do), lol!!!! Did that guru Glockmonger do the work for you??? You might want to have it looked at by someone that knows what is going on if your having troubles with it...

 

Like I "tried" to tell you guys on the AZ forum... If you want to know something about the saiga-12 you come here, PERIOD!

 

Also, I'll bet the business that the Booster will out preform the KA on reliability any day of the week and I can even take away the dished ring and finish... I never said it was a stay clean piston though and neither should have KA. I have 2 KA and they never kept the gun clean one bit longer! Just so you know we have tested probably 10 different stay clean concepts of our own design and some in multiple variations. None, even free flowing designs did much. The best we had was doubling the time between cleanings and this wasn't consistant. At times even it would clog prematurly... These were also including those with joey tears finishes (joke I made in the AZ thread about KA).

actually no glockmonger has not touched my gun I had my saiga converted and chopped down in '05 way before I joined this site and when I looked for sbsed s12 I did not see anyone doing any at the time, and you really might not want to talk smack about his builds he builds some smooth running guns its just that my s12 is a slug gun and always has been KA does whine but that aside all his components work and if your puck works so great without the dish then why have it in the first place?

You call your gun a slug gun... I think you only call it that because that is all that will run in it. A 9 inch barreled slug gun? As far as Glockmonger... I never said anything about his work, only asked about it... He did rub me the wrong way though. I also stand by my statement that if he doesn't know or hasn't seen some of the things he said then he isn't nearly as up to par on these saiga-12s as he, you, or others think...

 

Oh, I put the dish there for the reasons I stated. It is a slight increase in effiecency. SLIGHT being the key word. If you care to read instead of just typing you can read more details on that. It has nothing at all to do with pressure curve like KA claims on his... You should go back and reread everything in that AZ thread very carefully to see how many times KA contradicts his own claims on somethings... He obviously doesn't read well either and makes many ASSumptions as well. You have to be very careful claiming ASSumtions as fact. Very often it will make you look like an ignorant ASS. It can also border on slander in certain situations. When I state things I have repeatable testing to back it up as fact or I state it is an assumtion and I don't know for sure ( to keep the "ass" lowercase)...

 

 

like I said it was built in 05 and back then nobody was sbsing them, unless you were? I had AZEX convert it and sbs the saiga and it was the first he had sbsed.

 

factory gas system with a 9" bbl. and I doubt your puck would be any better than the etac if anything i would say it is the same...

I going to try and make this my last reply to you as I don't have time to repeat things over and over for some stubborn, close minded, ignorant ass that can't tkae a few minutes to read.

 

First your guns sounds like a pile. Get it fixed by someone that knows what is going on and and start enjoying it rather than making lame ass excuses for it.

 

Last, I doubt the Booster would do anything for your pile as I clearly state it is not intended for guns with missing ports. I can garantee you though that if the Booster can't help you there is no other part available that can. I bet I have a piston design locked away that would fix it for you but that design won't be hitting the market. If you read this thread you can find more details on that and why... The market for such is just to small on top of those reason as most do it right and it isn't needed...

 

To ignore the fact that the Booster is different than anything available before is showing a very small mind. To ASSume it is no different than the twister is just plan dumb on so many levels and helps explains why you have a slug gun instead of a shotgun.

 

If you want to make that slug gun of yours more all purpose then shut up, read up, and man up! If you can do those 3 things we here can help you fix your waste of a Saiga-12 and SBS tax stamp... If you can't then enjoy your slug gun and please remove yourself from all intelligent conversation here...

 

how ignorant can you be? it appears that only your drums are good and well these new pucks you are producing are a pile, so tell me who was building short gas system s12's in '05? were you building them? I guess I was supporting one idiot from another during the aa and md event with the drums as I told my buddies that your drums were better and you were key word here a stand up guy. how are your conversations intelligent when all you do is talk shit about a gun built 6 years ago before you knew about this forum or did you know how to build a sbs s12 in '05.

Edited March 26, 2011 by lucifer

[yooper14.5 84]

Thing is, we currently lack video or testimonial proof that it works any better than the ka puck. I trust that mike isnt lying when he says his is better, but i want some sort of proof first. No offense meant toward either manufacturer.

 

There are a couple of testimonials in this thread:

 

http://forum.saiga-1...-range-results/

 

Results look promising so far, I'll try to break the camera out if I get my hands on one next week. Won't have a KA to compate it to though, just the factory.

 

he was asking about video not testimonials...

 

 

 

i stated video or testimonial proof. video is worth more to me but i trust peoples testimonials, especially when multiple people say the same thing.

[yooper14.5 84]

ok, im lost. i have heard from a lot of people that a KA piston will help cycling. i cant imagine all that is a lie. on the other hand, mike has a outstanding reputation and releases extremely good products, and if he says somthing its probably true. so what i see is a company with a relativly proven product IMO, and a company with a product that is almost guarenteed to do as advertised, and both are discrediting the other. i believe the only way to settle this is a head to head test on a stock saiga, with a video showing the performance, and showing a detailed overview of each puck, and shows each puck being inserted into the gun, so nobody screams sabatoge. also, i say stock saiga, not out of the box saiga, because the gun has to be broken in for a accurate test. just my

I only said the stay clean claims of the KA were not existent in my tests. The KA does slightly increase cycling power. I just don't think the increase is anything close to brag about as increased reliability. It is just too small and most won't see much benifit at all.

 

Also I designed the Booster primarily for those new out of box guns with trouble. It should make the very most of these out of box guns that have ejection problems from the shoulder with the factory piston be able to fire the same stuff from the hip with the Booster. In my opinion there isn't a better show of improvement than that situation. Regardless, I am very confidant the Booster is going to dominate any current piston on the market in cycling power increase! The difference will be night and day. The Booster piston is in a whole new class of pistons.

 

i only said not out of the box because out of the box guns always have ftes for the first few shots. reson i said that is because in a test, whichever puck was used first would get those ftes on its record. i agree that this is good for out of the box guns though. but in a test, out of the box wouldnt be fair.

[MikeD 541]

ok, im lost. i have heard from a lot of people that a KA piston will help cycling. i cant imagine all that is a lie. on the other hand, mike has a outstanding reputation and releases extremely good products, and if he says somthing its probably true. so what i see is a company with a relativly proven product IMO, and a company with a product that is almost guarenteed to do as advertised, and both are discrediting the other. i believe the only way to settle this is a head to head test on a stock saiga, with a video showing the performance, and showing a detailed overview of each puck, and shows each puck being inserted into the gun, so nobody screams sabatoge. also, i say stock saiga, not out of the box saiga, because the gun has to be broken in for a accurate test. just my

I only said the stay clean claims of the KA were not existent in my tests. The KA does slightly increase cycling power. I just don't think the increase is anything close to brag about as increased reliability. It is just too small and most won't see much benifit at all.

 

Also I designed the Booster primarily for those new out of box guns with trouble. It should make the very most of these out of box guns that have ejection problems from the shoulder with the factory piston be able to fire the same stuff from the hip with the Booster. In my opinion there isn't a better show of improvement than that situation. Regardless, I am very confidant the Booster is going to dominate any current piston on the market in cycling power increase! The difference will be night and day. The Booster piston is in a whole new class of pistons.

 

i only said not out of the box because out of the box guns always have ftes for the first few shots. reson i said that is because in a test, whichever puck was used first would get those ftes on its record. i agree that this is good for out of the box guns though. but in a test, out of the box wouldnt be fair.

The gun I refered early in this thread was used with the Booster piston first because I had this in mind. I didn't want to chance breaking the gun in finding out if it cycled. I first used the Booster then moved to the factory. I did this repeatedly through all rounds of testing. Also the gun did get slightly better with the factory piston through the testing but never reached a point that all fte's were eliminated. Every round of testing had zero FTE's with the Booster though.

 

I found part of my test results with this gun. I need to find the other half and will be able to post complete results on that gun. The testing was over two seperate days of testing. That's why they are split. The results of this gun are from the worst cycling gun I tested.

[kingjamez 8]

Mike, thanks for the response about the expected lifespan. I think I'll pick one up.

 

Next question / suggestion. Why don't you release the "super" puck. I know, I'd love to have a puck that would allow me to do an SBS without modifying the gas system length. If your super puck could pull that off, man that would be sweet.

 

-Jim

Edited March 26, 2011 by kingjamez

[Mephis 82]

Mike, thanks for the response about the expected lifespan. I think I'll pick one up.

 

Next question / suggestion. Why don't you release the "super" puck. I know, I'd love to have a puck that would allow me to do an SBS without modifying the gas system length. If your super puck could pull that off, man that would be sweet.

 

-Jim

 

 

If I was in his shoes, I wouldn't release that puck either.

 

 

Too many people who don't need it would buy it and wreck their gun, or have something come apart and cause an injury. I wouldn't want to be responsible for it, and I imagine he doesn't either.

I think he could offer it if he was able to have the gun in his hands and make sure that it wouldn't be a liability, but even then someone could take it out and sell it to some idiot.

 

I think not releasing something like that is probably best for everyone. I'm sure most people can gather the concept of this super piston and modify one to similar results without involving him in any kind of legal issues.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Tombs

[mobilecommand 0]

So i got my new saiga from the shop last week and got my new booster piston last night.

 

I went out to the desert and had nothing but issues cycling and ejecting low brass rounds through the drum. My stick mags where hit or miss.

 

I literally tossed in the Booster puck and well this was the first time i was ever able to cycle federal bulk packs at 1200fps.

 

Generally speaking the lowest fps i was evey able to cycle were federal game loads at 1290fps.

 

Here are 2 vids of drum dumps on my new saiga with the booster piston.

 

To say the least i am sold on the booster Pistons and will be getting more for my other saigas.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra1LxCRFweM

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XG8XHXL_ok

[Spartacus 1,619]

Man oh man..... all of the trouble and expense so many of us went through to remove the gas block and drill the ports. Some guys bought tools, presses, built press jigs..... hours of pounding and swearing.

 

Now Mike D. fixes the problem with a $16 puck.

 

I bet RAAC would have liked a box of Boosters instead of paying for hundreds of guns to be shipped and reworked under warranty. Not that it would have fixed all of them, but a great many of them for sure.

 

Ahh well, we all learned how to remove S-12 gas blocks and Tom Cole made some beer money on the warranty work.

 

Edit: No disrespect intended to Tom with my comments.

In reality, I doubt RAAC would have approved the use of a non-factory part any way.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Spartacus

[MikeD 541]

WOW!!! I was just informed by Lauren that we just received a very nasty voicemail from King's Armory... It stated that I exactly copied their design and that although I said their design didn't do anything that mine does, among other ramblings. He also stated I was only a couple hours drive away!

 

King's Armory, Are you kinding me? You can openly bash E-Tac on the twister piston but I can't give my opinion on the KA piston? First off I didn't bash, second off if you don't like what I said don't jack up your claims that are so easily called as BS.

 

And to further point out if you read and look carefully you will see the design is different. First off our design intent and advertised features are totally different and conflicting. Mine are correct and yours are wrong... I had gas chamber volume increase in consideration because it hurts, not help like you advertised. The dished area is smooth and flowing in ours and not choppy and broken like the KA piston. Most importantly if you read our stainless piston info you will see I clearly state that the dished area isn't considered a reliability increaser which it most definately shouldn't be claimed. I think the real issue here is I am now selling a better designed piston than the KA piston for $10 compared to the KA's $30 or so piston and I'm selling a booster piston that will really work as advertised for $16.

 

While we're at it I also want to call complete BS on your reported 1 to 2 thousand rounds fired before cleaning that you state on the KA piston. That has been urking me for a couple years now because it is one of the biggest loads of crap I've seen stated about an aftermarket saiga item. It's your name though I guess. But it is also this spewing of crap that makes me have to better explain why ours is different. Because the BS and distrust transfers over from items that don't live up to the stated claims.

 

What a complete rip off your KA piston has been and you should be ashamed of yourself! At least the Twister piston really does help keep the gun clean a little longer...

 

Do yourself a favor and don't bother calling back.

 

 

well if you actually think the twister puck keeps it cleaner than I will not even bother with your puck, they sent me all three pucks and guess what my little shorty would not cycle with any of them and worse than that after just a hundred rounds it was all gummed up. the factory puck was cleaner than theirs and ran a bit better and the ka puck I have works flawless and I can run hundreds of rounds without having to clean it.

Oh man... You mean a guy that wasn't going to buy a Booster piston isn't going to buy a Booster piston? Now I'm worried... Yeah, you should keep using your KA that is good for 1 to 2 thousands rounds without cleaning that you have to clean after hundreds...

 

well there is a reason for that my s12 is a slug gun and as you should know slugs have a hell of a lot more fouling than 00buck or fed bulk pack so after a few hundred rounds it needs to be cleaned but hey if you really want me to put your puck to the test and tell me it will outperform the ka puck? Remember my s12 has a stock gas system with a 9" barrel, so your puck will cycle bulk fed with this? will your puck cycle slugs more reliably? for it to be reliable would mean i won't have jams or fte with your puck.

The info is there to read... If your having fte with your 9inch gun when using slugs then the work was poorly done and your gun is severly lacking already. If a competent builder did it for you it should cycle bulk stuff with the factory piston (all mine do), lol!!!! Did that guru Glockmonger do the work for you??? You might want to have it looked at by someone that knows what is going on if your having troubles with it...

 

Like I "tried" to tell you guys on the AZ forum... If you want to know something about the saiga-12 you come here, PERIOD!

 

Also, I'll bet the business that the Booster will out preform the KA on reliability any day of the week and I can even take away the dished ring and finish... I never said it was a stay clean piston though and neither should have KA. I have 2 KA and they never kept the gun clean one bit longer! Just so you know we have tested probably 10 different stay clean concepts of our own design and some in multiple variations. None, even free flowing designs did much. The best we had was doubling the time between cleanings and this wasn't consistant. At times even it would clog prematurly... These were also including those with joey tears finishes (joke I made in the AZ thread about KA).

actually no glockmonger has not touched my gun I had my saiga converted and chopped down in '05 way before I joined this site and when I looked for sbsed s12 I did not see anyone doing any at the time, and you really might not want to talk smack about his builds he builds some smooth running guns its just that my s12 is a slug gun and always has been KA does whine but that aside all his components work and if your puck works so great without the dish then why have it in the first place?

You call your gun a slug gun... I think you only call it that because that is all that will run in it. A 9 inch barreled slug gun? As far as Glockmonger... I never said anything about his work, only asked about it... He did rub me the wrong way though. I also stand by my statement that if he doesn't know or hasn't seen some of the things he said then he isn't nearly as up to par on these saiga-12s as he, you, or others think...

 

Oh, I put the dish there for the reasons I stated. It is a slight increase in effiecency. SLIGHT being the key word. If you care to read instead of just typing you can read more details on that. It has nothing at all to do with pressure curve like KA claims on his... You should go back and reread everything in that AZ thread very carefully to see how many times KA contradicts his own claims on somethings... He obviously doesn't read well either and makes many ASSumptions as well. You have to be very careful claiming ASSumtions as fact. Very often it will make you look like an ignorant ASS. It can also border on slander in certain situations. When I state things I have repeatable testing to back it up as fact or I state it is an assumtion and I don't know for sure ( to keep the "ass" lowercase)...

 

 

like I said it was built in 05 and back then nobody was sbsing them, unless you were? I had AZEX convert it and sbs the saiga and it was the first he had sbsed.

 

factory gas system with a 9" bbl. and I doubt your puck would be any better than the etac if anything i would say it is the same...

I going to try and make this my last reply to you as I don't have time to repeat things over and over for some stubborn, close minded, ignorant ass that can't tkae a few minutes to read.

 

First your guns sounds like a pile. Get it fixed by someone that knows what is going on and and start enjoying it rather than making lame ass excuses for it.

 

Last, I doubt the Booster would do anything for your pile as I clearly state it is not intended for guns with missing ports. I can garantee you though that if the Booster can't help you there is no other part available that can. I bet I have a piston design locked away that would fix it for you but that design won't be hitting the market. If you read this thread you can find more details on that and why... The market for such is just to small on top of those reason as most do it right and it isn't needed...

 

To ignore the fact that the Booster is different than anything available before is showing a very small mind. To ASSume it is no different than the twister is just plan dumb on so many levels and helps explains why you have a slug gun instead of a shotgun.

 

If you want to make that slug gun of yours more all purpose then shut up, read up, and man up! If you can do those 3 things we here can help you fix your waste of a Saiga-12 and SBS tax stamp... If you can't then enjoy your slug gun and please remove yourself from all intelligent conversation here...

 

how ignorant can you be? it appears that only your drums are good and well these new pucks you are producing are a pile, so tell me who was building short gas system s12's in '05? were you building them? I guess I was supporting one idiot from another during the aa and md event with the drums as I told my buddies that your drums were better and you were key word here a stand up guy. how are your conversations intelligent when all you do is talk shit about a gun built 6 years ago before you knew about this forum or did you know how to build a sbs s12 in '05.

You fail to read and think, again... So far we have 2 reports in this thread that the Booster is working exactly as I said it would. One of these reports is even from AZ...

 

If AA had been from AZ would you have suggested the wraithmaker over the MD-20? I think the only difference in this situation here is national orgin. You were able to think clearly on the drums but why not the pistons? Are you blinding yourself in support of the KA because it is from the same state as you? If so that is even a smaller mind than thinking the Booster is a copy of the KA.

 

In '05 I didn't own a Saiga-12. The fact that it could be converted to the intended platform after the ban expired had slipped my mind. That was one reason I never bought one before... So obviously I wasn't doing anything with the Saiga-12 at that time. But look what an open mind can do for a guy in short order...

 

As far as talking crap about your gun... I am only pointing out things that you state yourself. You are taking offense because you are closing your mind to the things that follow. You can fix your gun. You can get the knowledge to do so right here in this very forum and even from the very person you are trying to bash. Or you can just be a stubborn ignorant ass. Ingnorance is only a bad thing when close mindedness, arrogance, and pride keep you that way.

 

Now please either take a step in a different direction or please go back from the direction you came. You are adding nothing to this thread. You are being a troll.

[MikeD 541]

Mike, thanks for the response about the expected lifespan. I think I'll pick one up.

 

Next question / suggestion. Why don't you release the "super" puck. I know, I'd love to have a puck that would allow me to do an SBS without modifying the gas system length. If your super puck could pull that off, man that would be sweet.

 

-Jim

 

 

If I was in his shoes, I wouldn't release that puck either.

 

 

Too many people who don't need it would buy it and wreck their gun, or have something come apart and cause an injury. I wouldn't want to be responsible for it, and I imagine he doesn't either.

I think he could offer it if he was able to have the gun in his hands and make sure that it wouldn't be a liability, but even then someone could take it out and sell it to some idiot.

 

I think not releasing something like that is probably best for everyone. I'm sure most people can gather the concept of this super piston and modify one to similar results without involving him in any kind of legal issues.

Yes, I didn't think releasing the design would be very responsible and even less considerate to the market.

 

Actually I don't know if it would work in the same way for SBS's. I tested this dubbed "Super" piston in 24" guns reduced to 19" to simulate the 19" guns that came in missing ports. The ratio of barrel in front of ports removed from an out of box 19" gun would be a quite different percentage. Removing 5" from a 24" gun still leaves a good bit of barrel in front of the ports.

[MikeD 541]

So i got my new saiga from the shop last week and got my new booster piston last night.

 

I went out to the desert and had nothing but issues cycling and ejecting low brass rounds through the drum. My stick mags where hit or miss.

 

I literally tossed in the Booster puck and well this was the first time i was ever able to cycle federal bulk packs at 1200fps.

 

Generally speaking the lowest fps i was evey able to cycle were federal game loads at 1290fps.

 

Here are 2 vids of drum dumps on my new saiga with the booster piston.

 

To say the least i am sold on the booster Pistons and will be getting more for my other saigas.

 

 

Thanks for the report! Very glad it worked as you expected it to! Do you do any posting on the AZ forum? Thanks again!

[MikeD 541]

Man oh man..... all of the trouble and expense so many of us went through to remove the gas block and drill the ports. Some guys bought tools, presses, built press jigs..... hours of pounding and swearing.

 

Now Mike D. fixes the problem with a $16 puck.

 

[TwentyNizzo 66]

Yes, I agree about using the booster instead of resizing the ports. With 3 unobstructed ports @ 3/32" and factory plug on 1, I think my gun is actually overgassed with 3" magnums because I experienced failure to feed for the first time ever with high brass. The bolt carrier had already passed over the magazine before the shell could be lifted up and the underside of the bolt just ended up cramming into the brass of the shell.

 

As far as bulk pack birdshot, my gun does pretty well with it. 200 rounds yesterday and I had around a 3% failure rate, a few of which I attribute to still too much spring tension on the MD drum. But you can definitely tell some of the shells are just dribbling out. It just seems like there's a lot of inconsistency in the charge on the shells. Even in the video above you can see some shells are ejecting far shorter than the majority.

[MikeD 541]

Yes, I agree about using the booster instead of resizing the ports. With 3 unobstructed ports @ 3/32" and factory plug on 1, I think my gun is actually overgassed with 3" magnums because I experienced failure to feed for the first time ever with high brass. The bolt carrier had already passed over the magazine before the shell could be lifted up and the underside of the bolt just ended up cramming into the brass of the shell.

 

As far as bulk pack birdshot, my gun does pretty well with it. 200 rounds yesterday and I had around a 3% failure rate, a few of which I attribute to still too much spring tension on the MD drum. But you can definitely tell some of the shells are just dribbling out. It just seems like there's a lot of inconsistency in the charge on the shells. Even in the video above you can see some shells are ejecting far shorter than the majority.

I know some think the over gassing thing is just a tool to sell new gas plugs and that the problem doesn't exist but I definitly does exist. Just because a magazine is keeping up with the gun doesn't mean the over gassing isn't there either. But if it does out feed the gun epsiecially with a stick mag it is pretty apperant the conditions exisits. My guess is your factory plug bottoms out just short of reaching the 1 setting, right? If so it means by backing out to come back to the 1 setting is opening up you gas ports way too much. You can view the difference from the pics on the V-Plug page of our site.

 

On the MD-20. Really you shouldn't need to reduce the spring tension on the drum. It is listed as an option in the user's guide to help low brass cycle but a well running gun doesn't require it. Also by reducing the spring tension you take away the ability to fire some of the high brass ammos because it won't feed fast enough. Actually even with the spring on the factory (max) setting you will likely have problems with the drum feeding fast with certain high brass ammos already because it sounds like you are way over gassed. You should get a V-Plug to control and eliminate the over gassing.

[mobilecommand 0]

So i got my new saiga from the shop last week and got my new booster piston last night.

 

I went out to the desert and had nothing but issues cycling and ejecting low brass rounds through the drum. My stick mags where hit or miss.

 

I literally tossed in the Booster puck and well this was the first time i was ever able to cycle federal bulk packs at 1200fps.

 

Generally speaking the lowest fps i was evey able to cycle were federal game loads at 1290fps.

 

Here are 2 vids of drum dumps on my new saiga with the booster piston.

 

To say the least i am sold on the booster Pistons and will be getting more for my other saigas.

 

 

Thanks for the report! Very glad it worked as you expected it to! Do you do any posting on the AZ forum? Thanks again!

 

I do from time to time but not a super active poster over there.

 

I am taking my guns to my saiga guy today to show off the pistons..

 

I think end of day my money speaks louder than words and I am big a MD arms fan and that's who i spend my money with. "oh yea your products work better then advertised lol"

 

I got a few drums "always need more" 3 x vplugs 2 booster pistons "need 1 more" and getting a few flash hiders and of course waiting for the double stacks and new rail system lol

 

I take my guns to the range all the time and i always get a crowd of ppl asking about the gun.. Always refer em to my gun guy and you site of accessories so i do my part. :-)

 

Keep up the good work because you have a customer for life.