Full-auto Draco SBR parts recommendations?

[Scott Kenny 144]

So, a friend of mine has been bitten by the NFA bug, and wants a SBR/automatic in 7.62x39 (or 6.8SPC).

 

I recommended a Draco over the AR platform, since you only need one NFA declaration (to my understanding).

 

First, is it possible? I know SBR Dracos are just about mindless conversions, but what about the FA FCG?

 

Second, what parts are recommended for 922r compliance (assuming you still need to for NFA firearms)?

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

As long as you buy one that was registered as a machinegun prior to the 1986 ban you should be fine. Umm, good luck with that.

[Bean.223 365]

As long as you buy one that was registered as a machinegun prior to the 1986 ban you should be fine. Umm, good luck with that.

 

 

Which you probably wont find.

 

And Scott, if ya don't know about "parts needed" and about the laws involved, I think you might already be in over your head...

Edited May 17, 2011 by Bean.223

[beefcakeb99 572]

It can be done....IF you want to pay thousands in SOT taxes and insurance and become a FFL. Unless your friend already is a Class 2 and has the FFL.

[Scott Kenny 144]

Oh, *I* know about playing by 922r (my PSL needs another part before I use the Valmet M26 hi-cap mags, probably floorplates), but I don't know how 922r interacts with the NFA. I assumed that you would still need to comply with 922r even though it's an NFA item, so I told him to expect a new trigger, pistol grip and fore-end, and probably something else, since that's only 5 parts. I'd add a US-made muzzle device and an Ultimak gas tube to the list. That gets you to at least 6 US-made parts for 922r, since the folding stock won't count(!). That makes the SBR half of the gun.

 

The thing is, I don't have a Draco myself, so I don't know specific recommendations of 'good parts' versus 'looks cool but doesn't work worth a shit' parts.

 

For the machine-gun part, I think the only change is a pre-'86 selective-fire FCG (which likely exist, but are not cheap), but I wanted some opinions/advice from someone who may have already done this. Oh, I guess you'd need to drill another hole into the receiver for the auto/safety sear axis pin, too.

 

That damnfool friend of mine has been talking about building rifles for people, which means he really should get a FFL of the appropriate type, anyway. Getting a higher-level license would be good business for him.

 

I figured someone on the forum would have built a legal full-auto AK, so I asked.

[beefcakeb99 572]

Oh, *I* know about playing by 922r (my PSL needs another part before I use the Valmet M26 hi-cap mags, probably floorplates), but I don't know how 922r interacts with the NFA. I assumed that you would still need to comply with 922r even though it's an NFA item, so I told him to expect a new trigger, pistol grip and fore-end, and probably something else, since that's only 5 parts. I'd add a US-made muzzle device and an Ultimak gas tube to the list. That gets you to at least 6 US-made parts for 922r, since the folding stock won't count(!). That makes the SBR half of the gun.

 

The thing is, I don't have a Draco myself, so I don't know specific recommendations of 'good parts' versus 'looks cool but doesn't work worth a shit' parts.

 

For the machine-gun part, I think the only change is a pre-'86 selective-fire FCG (which likely exist, but are not cheap), but I wanted some opinions/advice from someone who may have already done this. Oh, I guess you'd need to drill another hole into the receiver for the auto/safety sear axis pin, too.

 

That damnfool friend of mine has been talking about building rifles for people, which means he really should get a FFL of the appropriate type, anyway. Getting a higher-level license would be good business for him.

 

I figured someone on the forum would have built a legal full-auto AK, so I asked.

It's just not as easy as you think, lots more then just drilling a hole and getting a fcg.

[zakmatthews 14]

Wouldn't this build require a registered pre-'86 full auto receiver? Wouldn't the only way to do this without becoming an FFL be to demill both guns and rebuild a new one with Draco parts on the registered receiver?

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Post '86 machine guns are dealer samples only. Unless your friend is a governmental agency or an SOT, it isn't in the cards. A pre-'86 registered AKM will likely cost in excess of $10k - as mentioned above, if he really wanted to he could probably disassemble the weapon, and using the same receiver, install parts from a Draco. IMO, that'd be silly as shit - might as well build a better parts kit if you're paying for a transferable receiver.

 

922r compliance does not apply to machine guns.

[Scott Kenny 144]

Ick! Maybe an AR *would* be cheaper... So much for simple and cheap...

 

Now, *I* may still do a Draco SBR, but screw the auto half of the idea.

 

Thanks for the help, guys!

Edited May 17, 2011 by Scott Kenny

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

Post '86 machine guns are dealer samples only. Unless your friend is a governmental agency or an SOT, it isn't in the cards. A pre-'86 registered AKM will likely cost in excess of $10k - as mentioned above, if he really wanted to he could probably disassemble the weapon, and using the same receiver, install parts from a Draco. IMO, that'd be silly as shit - might as well build a better parts kit if you're paying for a transferable receiver.

It's worse than that. In 1986 the cold war was going on, there were almost no AK receivers imported that could have been converted. What you have are amnesty registered Russian or Chinese AK47s brought back from Vietnam. I've heard they start at $20K.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Post '86 machine guns are dealer samples only. Unless your friend is a governmental agency or an SOT, it isn't in the cards. A pre-'86 registered AKM will likely cost in excess of $10k - as mentioned above, if he really wanted to he could probably disassemble the weapon, and using the same receiver, install parts from a Draco. IMO, that'd be silly as shit - might as well build a better parts kit if you're paying for a transferable receiver.

It's worse than that. In 1986 the cold war was going on, there were almost no AK receivers imported that could have been converted. What you have are amnesty registered Russian or Chinese AK47s brought back from Vietnam. I've heard they start at $20K.

 

Nah, it's not that bad. Transferable AK-47s, that is, actual milled AK47s, seem to go for over the $15k mark, and rare variants or pre-'68 factory machine guns (as opposed to converted guns) are often well in excess of $20k. The majority of registered pre-'86 guns I've seen have been converted Chinese stamped guns, and in the last couple of years they seem to be going for $10k-$15k for the most part. One of the local gun folks with too much money just picked up a Chinese double underfolder for $12k.

[Scott Kenny 144]

Ouch. Cheaper, but still way more than my buddy can spend right now. I basically assume that any auto will start at $20k if it's already done.

 

Way too much headache involved with a full-auto, I see. At least until I win the lottery or score the $250k-a-year job.

[saltydecimator 482]

or until you pay for an ffl, then do your sot paperwork. Its not as hard as it sounds, and for the common man, I see this the only logical way for people to get ahold of mgs for less than 15k. Macs are 3k I know, but they are macs.

 

So, my whole solution to this atf quandry, is get as many peopel. As possible to become ffl/sot, and make it a pain in the but for atf to chck in on people, ie, hiring freeze.

 

That way eventually, when enough ordinary folks know the legalities of nfa, mg stuff they can make an informed decision and deep six the 86 horseshat.

 

Remember, your still making money, its like a pyramd scheme. Get cool toys. Cool toys bring people through doors. People spend money. Use toys to buy 30mm. Hardware

[cvasqu03 21]

or until you pay for an ffl, then do your sot paperwork. Its not as hard as it sounds, and for the common man, I see this the only logical way for people to get ahold of mgs for less than 15k. Macs are 3k I know, but they are macs.

 

So, my whole solution to this atf quandry, is get as many peopel. As possible to become ffl/sot, and make it a pain in the but for atf to chck in on people, ie, hiring freeze.

 

That way eventually, when enough ordinary folks know the legalities of nfa, mg stuff they can make an informed decision and deep six the 86 horseshat.

 

Remember, your still making money, its like a pyramd scheme. Get cool toys. Cool toys bring people through doors. People spend money. Use toys to buy 30mm. Hardware

 

 

Yeah, but if you get an FFL, they actually expect you to be using it for business purposes. they don't look kindly on people trying to get one just to get himself NFA items.

[saltydecimator 482]

Well of course you gotta do marjet research and sell what people wanna buy in your area. Its like anything, it takes effort

[Shandlanos 1,470]

The process of becoming a manufacturer is a pain in the ass, requires a ridiculous amount of paperwork, and really isn't worth unless you intend to do it for profit. If you're a hobbyist, the ATF will eventually catch on to it and shut you down. You manufactured 37 machine guns in the last five years, and sold a grand total of four cans and an SBR? Hmm... You're done.

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

Its not the ATF fees that are bad, it's the State Department's ITAR fees. That starts at $2250 per year.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Please be clear. ATF does not hand out 07 (manufacturing) FFLs, or 2 SOTs like cotton candy.

 

You must submit the paperwork with every "i" dotted and every "T" crossed, and submit to, and pass the extensive background check. An ATF inspector will come to your business location. And, make no mistake - you MUST have a real business location. Your garage, your shed, your kitchen counter, your bedroom, or picnic table will not do. You must have a monitored alarm system that meets ATF requirements. You must have physical security for the premises. You must have secure storage (safes - big, very big and very secure attached to your monitored alarm system), and the tools and expertise to ply your trade, because before issuing professional licenses of any kind, an ATF inspector will come to your place of business, conduct an in depth one on one interview, physically review your work, inspect your entire facility, your tools, your benches, your equipment, your work area, make inquiries about your background and qualifications, and will ask lots and lots of other questions.

 

You will keep and maintain all records as required - and if you are prudent - you will have backups and cross references for every reference and entry in your bound book(s). You will apply for, obtain approval for all requisite licenses, and pay all applicable licensing fees, and all applicable taxes, on time and in full, and if you manage to do alright, you will pay even more taxes.

 

In addition to federal licensing requirements, fees, and taxes, you will need a business license valid in your state and municipality of residence, approved zoning, and lots and lots of costly insurance.

 

No one in their right mind considers doing all of this simply to own NFA firearms when an NFA tax stamp (which is by far less expensive, and much, much, easier to obtain) will pay the price of admission.

 

Respectfully,

 

Mike Rogers

Lone Star Arms

07FFL/2SOT

[Scott Kenny 144]

Thanks for that explanation, Mike. Sounds like the appropriate phrase for any NFA items is starting to become "not worth the @$#%^$#@^%@$#%#@$! hassle."

 

Not like I really want a lot... A Thompson and a BAR, maybe an MG42 if I can find one. A suppressor for the .338 for sure, maybe a couple more for the pistols. 6 items max for me.

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

Not like I really want a lot... A Thompson and a BAR, maybe an MG42 if I can find one. A suppressor for the .338 for sure, maybe a couple more for the pistols. 6 items max for me.

 

Those are available, for the right price. Transferable MGs will put a serious dent in your bank account. But they are not making any more. Unless the ATF declares another amnesty (which isn't impossible - just not likely) or the law gets changed (again, not likely) they won't get any cheaper.

[saltydecimator 482]

Its not the ATF fees that are bad, it's the State Department's ITAR fees. That starts at $2250 per year.

 

not everyont has to pay itar.

 

and of course you have to make money at it! but i feel that this stuff will sell itself! thats the way my local dealer is anyways

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

Everyone manufacturing gun parts or actual weapons has to pay ITAR. You make scope rings, you need to pay ITAR. They charge "extra" if you actually export anything. Don't ask me why, it's like the leftists that run the state department don't like the gun industry or something.

 

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/registration/index.html

"All manufacturers, exporters, and brokers of defense articles, defense services, or related technical data, as defined on the United States Munitions List (Part 121 of the ITAR) (PDF, 7MB), are required to register with DDTC. Registration is primarily a means to provide the U.S. Government with necessary information on who is involved in certain manufacturing and exporting activities. Registration does not confer any export rights or privileges, but is a precondition for the issuance of any license or other approval for export.."

[Shandlanos 1,470]

It varies dramatically. A lot of folks get the hard-ass treatment, where they want to ask you a million questions about whether or not you have a bunch of stuff that is not required by law, and if you don't, why not. Some folks get someone who just wants to do their job, make sure you're not just a hobbyist, that you're actually going to be operating within the confines of the license for lawful purposes, put a checkmark in the box and move on.

[Makc 64]

Note: 2 Posts removed.

Any difference of opinions can be expressed without aggravating the situation.

Everyone's experience in obtaining a proper FFL for their needs is different - there is no need to be rude in any case.

Trolling poisons an otherwise normal discussion of a topic at hand and turns it in to a needless fight that, in turn, gets the entire thread, that might have contained useful information for someone, simply removed.

Respectfully,

Makc

[Fallschirmjager667 729]

Thanks for that explanation, Mike. Sounds like the appropriate phrase for any NFA items is starting to become "not worth the @$#%^$#@^%@$#%#@$! hassle."

 

Not like I really want a lot... A Thompson and a BAR, maybe an MG42 if I can find one. A suppressor for the .338 for sure, maybe a couple more for the pistols. 6 items max for me.

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=247117270

 

here's a good deal for you, a thompson will be close to the same and an mg42 will run you about $40,000+

[Mr Mivet 6]

Hey Lonestar, you are really blowing it out of proportion, I have considered upgrading to an 07, and getting my class 2 SOT, and my experience with the ATF so far has been positive, not one mention of security systems, or armed guards, they recommended a good safe, which I already have, and the ITAR fees and whether you must actually pay them is what the question is at this point, and I still do not have a definitive answer as to whether non exporting manufacturers need to register.

 

And, when dealers come in and spout off about how hard it is to do this stuff, it reminds me of all the gunshops which warned me about getting my FFL, which was originally a home one, the ATF would raid my house in the middle of the night, blah, blah, blah, and that was 20 years ago, and many inspections, and other than one little prick lady who was new, and had to show how tough she was, the ATF people have been good people, who are just doing a government job, they have the same bitches, complaints and problems as we do, and no, the people who inspect you aren't the same people who were at Waco either.

 

Practically, its more than feasible to pay all the fees, and still come out ahead if you want to play the game, with a lot less coin than buying one high priced machine gun, yeah, you gotta be in the biz, but there is no actual number of products you must sell, as long as you are making a serious attempt, and as long as you arent insane with the numbers of what you produce, IE, tax forms avoided divided by your sot fees per year, if you aren't fucking uncle sam for his taxes, they don't really care.

 

Seriously, quit scaring the non washed masses, if you have the coin, and you don't have a record, anyone can play the game.

[cvasqu03 21]

Guys, the bottom line as far as the OP is concerned is that he won't be able to create a full auto the way he though he would. Yes,he could always try to get an FFL license but this is not what he was talking about.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Guys, the bottom line as far as the OP is concerned is that he won't be able to create a full auto the way he though he would. Yes,he could always try to get an FFL license but this is not what he was talking about.

 

These threads have a way of digressing. Your point is appropriate and well taken. See the following:

 

As debate for FOPA was in its final stages in the House before moving on to the Senate, Rep. William J. Hughes (D-N.J.) proposed several amendments including House Amendment 777 to H.R. 4332 [4] that would ban a civilian from ownership or transfer rights of any fully automatic weapon which was not registered as of May 19, 1986. The amendment also held that any such weapon manufactured and registered before the May 19 cutoff date could still be legally owned and transferred by civilians.

 

In the morning hours of April 10, 1986, the House held recorded votes on three amendments to FOPA in Record Vote No's 72, 73, and 74. Recorded Vote 72 was on H.AMDT. 776, an amendment to H.AMDT 770 involving the interstate sale of handguns; while Recorded Vote 74 was on H.AMDT 770, involving primarily the easing of interstate sales and the safe passage provision. Recorded Vote 74 was the controversial Hughes Amendment that called for the banning of machine guns. Rep. Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.), at the time presiding as Chairman over the proceedings, claimed that the "amendment in the nature of a substitute, as amended, was agreed to." However, after the voice vote on the Hughes Amendment, Rep. Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.) ignored a plea to take a recorded vote and moved on to Recorded Vote 74 where the Hughes Amendment failed.[5][6] The bill, H.R. 4332, as a whole passed in Record Vote No: 75 on a motion to recommit. Despite the controversial amendment, the Senate, in S.B. 49, adopted H.R. 4332 as an amendment to the final bill. The bill was subsequently passed and signed on May 19, 1986 by President Ronald Reagan to become Public Law 99-308, the Firearms Owners' Protection Act.