raider929 31 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 So back in October my roommate and I split a 1000 round case of Wolf 55gr Steel Cased .223rem ammo. Both his AR and my Saiga had no problems with this ammo on our first couple trips to the range. We hadn't been shooting in awhile so we went this last weekend, neither of our guns will run this ammo reliably anymore. Both our guns had the same problem, the first round in the magazine would fire fine, the casing ejects and the next round gets chambered. This round would fire, however the casing wouldn't eject and actually got jammed into the opening of the barrel when the next round tried to enter the chamber. At this point I could tell something wasn't right, and when I pulled the bolt back I could see the back half of the casing poking out of the barrel. This happened several times with different magazines. As a test I bought some Federal brass cased ammo from the range, that stuff ran fine in both of our guns on the same range trip, so it appears to just be a problem with the Wolf ammo. The casings from the rounds that did successfully fire (and some from the rounds that got chambered but didn't fire) are all scratched up. I only have a cell phone for a camera and can't manage to get a good picture of the casings, but all of them had a lot of small scratches around the outside, one of them had a fairly deep gouge in it. This is pretty unusual, the casings from the previous trips all looked fine with the exception of the "AK kiss". I talked to one of my coworkers about this and he said that over time the lacquer on the steel can become "sticky" if it is exposed to moisture and it will cause these types of problems. The ammo was stored in the closet in my apartment in the cardboard boxes it came in, I'm not sure if this is the problem or not but it would certainly explain why the same ammo worked fine 2 months ago and doesn't work at all now. He recommended that I lightly oil the ammo and give it another try, does this sound like a good idea? If so, what's the easiest way to do this? I have ~300 rounds of this stuff left (my roommate has just about as much as well), is there an easy way to oil that amount of ammo? I have a spray can of rem oil that he said will work fine although I can certainly go get something else if there's a better way to do this. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MindRiot 83 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Just a suggestion, but I would call Wolf Ammo and ask them. They have a replacement warranty and I am sure would be able to answer your questions about this. Goto www.wolfammo.com and email or call. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RED333 1,025 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Ya got them in sealed boxes. Just a bit of water will start to rust the case. You might be able to see it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Steel doesn't expand to seal the chamber causing the blowback of the gas to get into your chamber, thus making it very tight. Easy fix: Clean your chamber after shooting steel cased ammo. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Wolf isn't lacquered to my knowledge being Poly coated. Its a very thin coating and cheaper than lacquer to apply. Cleaning the chamber with a shotgun brush isnt a bad idea anyway. Wasnt there a problem with the Saiga 223 gouging cases causing stovepipes? As for the AR meh lot of folks wont run steel through them for a lot of reasons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Clean the guns giving extra care the the chambers. How was this ammo stored? If it was stored in a damp conditions, you might need to clean the rounds with ScotchBright before using. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 The most important cleaning area on an AR is the chamber and the locking lugs of the bolt. Even my PSL gets a chamber scrub in addition to a couple passes with a bore snake. Shoot, I even scotch-brited the chamber on a Mossberg once (white scotchbrite on a 20ga brush). If you're getting scratches the length of a .223 case, it's a dirty chamber. x39 and x54R have more case taper, so they play nicer with dirty chambers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Groovy Mike 36 Posted December 29, 2011 Report Share Posted December 29, 2011 I agree. Sounds like a build up of watever is on the cases whether it is lacquer, oil, or paint, or just plain powder fouling. That it is happening to two rifles confirms it. Scrub everything especially the chamber and repeat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 What I would do is once your mags are loaded spray some silicon lube down the front of the mag. My ar had this happen, only when I run it dirty, but I clean my ar very seldom and I've only cleaned my ak once in like two years. I tried tge spray in the mag left them loaded about a week shot them without a problem. Better is to buy brass. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Excerpt from British based crusher proofing standards: "Under the British base crusher standards described below, proof loads ran 30 to 45% above normal. To maximize breech thrust, proof cartridges were oiled before firing." http://kwk.us/pressures.html It doesn't sound like a very good idea. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 If your extractor is ripping through the steel rim I don't think the lube is going to hurt. Also it's not loaded Above normal pressures. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raider929 31 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 So I went to the range yesterday and the steel cased stuff ran fine. I cleaned the rifle before i went and made sure it was lubed up, I also lightly oiled the ammo that was having the problems. Shot through ~150 rounds of it without a single problem. I've got a couple hundred rounds of it left, I'm just going to lightly oil that stuff before I take it out to the range. After I'm done shooting that stuff I'm going to just buy brass going forward. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Raider glad to hear that it went well. So your shooting an ar15? So how did you lube them. When I had this happen with my delton middy I just shot a squirt of silicone in the front of the fully loaded mag, used very little it worked fine and I left them loaded for like a week of two then shot them. But now I only buy brass since I now reload, but for brass walmart where I live usually has 100 round fed .223 for 40$ and that's not too bad. A local gun store has 5.56 xm193? From fed for 35 good deals are out there on brass. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TJohn 8 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Steel doesn't expand to seal the chamber causing the blowback of the gas to get into your chamber, thus making it very tight. Easy fix: Clean your chamber after shooting steel cased ammo. So I went to the range yesterday and the steel cased stuff ran fine. I cleaned the rifle before i went and made sure it was lubed up, I also lightly oiled the ammo that was having the problems. Shot through ~150 rounds of it without a single problem. I've got a couple hundred rounds of it left, I'm just going to lightly oil that stuff before I take it out to the range. After I'm done shooting that stuff I'm going to just buy brass going forward. I am with BuffetDestroyer on this, he is 100% on about the steel cased ammo expanding and sealing the chamber different than brass cased ammo. I bet just cleaning the chamber alone done the trick, especially since you said you had no problems on your first outing. Oiling the cartridges probably wasn't necessary. Some environmental factors like humidity can affect how the carbon build up interacts with additional shooting sessions if you are not at least doing a quick cleaning after shooting. Also where are you storing your firearm? I have seen the old type zippered gun cases cause rust on guns that wouldn't have normally rusted due to drawing moisture. Different environmental factors may cause you to use a slightly different cleaning routine if you are in a humid area as opposed to a dry arid region of the country. I know here in humid Oklahoma, I have seen the carbon build up on the gas tube on Mini 14's stick the op rod closed on them when they are shot and then stored without at least a quick wipedown of the gas tube with an oily rag, you would have to take a rubber or wooden mallet to the charging handle to break it loose. Edited January 9, 2012 by TJohn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Treat the mini like an ak and kick that bitch open and keep on rocking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raider929 31 Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Raider glad to hear that it went well. So your shooting an ar15? So how did you lube them. When I had this happen with my delton middy I just shot a squirt of silicone in the front of the fully loaded mag, used very little it worked fine and I left them loaded for like a week of two then shot them. But now I only buy brass since I now reload, but for brass walmart where I live usually has 100 round fed .223 for 40$ and that's not too bad. A local gun store has 5.56 xm193? From fed for 35 good deals are out there on brass. I'm shooting a Saiga in 223, my roommate has the AR. After how badly it was jamming his AR he sold the rest of the Wolf to someone (he told em what was happening, the guy seemed pretty sure it would run OK in his gun) so I don't know if the oiled-up Wolf would've run in his AR. After seeing it run in mine he seemed to think it would work fine but he didn't want to take any chances. As for the lube, in the Saiga I just sprayed down the chamber with some break free CLP and scrubbed out the inside as best I could, the rest of the internals just got sprayed with it as they weren't dirty enough to warrant a lot of cleaning. As others have said this probably would've been enough to get the ammo to run, but I ended up oiling the ammo anyways because I didn't want to get to the range and find out half the ammo I brought wasn't gonna go that day. For the ammo I laid it out on a towel in columns (~30 rounds each) and sprayed some rem oil on there as lightly as I could. I then rolled the rounds over by hand on the towel to try to get the oil to spread to all sides of the casing. It worked fairly well, at the end of the process each round had a mostly even coat of oil on the outside that was barely noticable to the touch. I was concerned that I might use too much oil and ruin the ammo but as long as you're careful it isn't a problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SGT D USMC 2 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Brass expands in the chamber at the moment of firing thus sealing the chamber, it actually starts to shrink once the chamber pressure starts falling and extraction is begining. If you are fimiliar with the HK model 93 the brass comes out stripped down its length from the chamber being fluted. this helps it break the seal of the brass to the chamber, which is to say that brass sealed to the chamber causes a few micro seconds of friction before ejection. When you oil the brass before firing you are causing more stress to the action because the forces in the chamber put more thrust on the bolt sooner and faster due to the loss of friction that was considered when designing the rifle. this does not increase the chamber pressure but it gives that same effect to the bolt, bolt locking lugs, and the bolt locking lug recesses , The very parts that usualy fail in a blow up of a rifle action. I only discussed brass above not steel cases. Brass seals better to the chamber during the pressure spike than less expensive steel cases, So I would think that oiling a steel case could be even more dangerus. Almost everyone recomended cleaning the chamber. I think that the chamber of any simi auto should be cleaned at least twice as often as a bolt action. And with steal cases with their coating to prevent rust I would double that. Especialy if it steel cases are fired in a 223, Arifle that was never designed for steel cases. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 AR to AK translation: Never use steel case ammo in a rifle that craps where it eats. As for the AK clean it once in a while and it shoots anything short of rocks. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) AR defender here. At 500 yards with the ak you might as well be throwing rocks. Also I've been shooting my delton ar dry and dirty on three combined range trips for 300+ rounds and no problems. Yea it was brass mostly and oiled steel. Edited January 25, 2012 by Ak Monty Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) At 500 yards with my overgrown AK you would be well advised to seek bulletproof cover, Monty. x54R will "reach out and touch someone." 300 rounds? Nice practice day at the range. Total round count for the 2011 Ironman was over 1000 rifle alone. Edited February 1, 2012 by Scott Kenny Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) Well AM some of us got tired of the damned thing fouling. Oiled steel huh, do you have to buy it dinner first? Put a piston in it and it would be fine. Edited January 29, 2012 by Rhodes1968 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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