AlphaFive 0 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) Hey guys, sorry for the informal introduction, but I may be on a bit of a time constraint depending on what's going on with my rifle. I purchased a converted Saiga AK in 7.62x39 from Classic Arms.com. To go with it, I also purchased a front sight tool. So I'm at the range trying to sight this thing in at 25 yards (for ''battle sighting''). Unfortunately I don't remember where the rifle was hitting with factory settings, but I did notice the front post was off to the right a bit. No big deal, no cant, good to go. Long story short, by the time I'm hitting bullseye, the front sight post is WAY off to the left of center. I mean, nearly maxed out. What's going on here? My firing stance is good - I have a lot of experience firing assult-style rifles (mostly AR's...) from all positions. I don't believe the problem is user error. The buttstock appears to be straight, as does the barrel. The front sight mount appears to be straight as well, as does the rear. Looking down the barrel (from breach to muzzle) the barrel appears straight. If you look at the front sight post from a birds eye view, you can tell it's nowhere near center of the barrel... I did clean the rifle to get factory oils out, and I'm using Tula for the time being. I'm also convinced the ammunition isn't at fault, since my grouping is very good (about quarter sized). Any ideas before I call CA.com and suggest that this thing is defective? Thanks for your time! Edit: I did forget to mention that I didn't have a chance to shoot a longer range (such as 200 yards) to see if the rounds would eventually still miss left of target. Perhaps this coming weekend I can confirm. Edited January 3, 2012 by AlphaFive Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hutchsaiga 93 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Hey guys, sorry for the informal introduction, but I may be on a bit of a time constraint depending on what's going on with my rifle. I purchased a converted Saiga AK in 7.62x39 from Classic Arms.com. To go with it, I also purchased a front sight tool. So I'm at the range trying to sight this thing in at 25 yards (for ''battle sighting''). Unfortunately I don't remember where the rifle was hitting with factory settings, but I did notice the front post was off to the right a bit. No big deal, no cant, good to go. Long story short, by the time I'm hitting bullseye, the front sight post is WAY off to the left of center. I mean, nearly maxed out. What's going on here? My firing stance is good - I have a lot of experience firing assult-style rifles (mostly AR's...) from all positions. I don't believe the problem is user error. The buttstock appears to be straight, as does the barrel. The front sight mount appears to be straight as well, as does the rear. Looking down the barrel (from breach to muzzle) the barrel appears straight. If you look at the front sight post from a birds eye view, you can tell it's nowhere near center of the barrel... I did clean the rifle to get factory oils out, and I'm using Tula for the time being. I'm also convinced the ammunition isn't at fault, since my grouping is very good (about quarter sized). Any ideas before I call CA.com and suggest that this thing is defective? Thanks for your time! Edit: I did forget to mention that I didn't have a chance to shoot a longer range (such as 200 yards) to see if the rounds would eventually still miss left of target. Perhaps this coming weekend I can confirm. Ok Six questions need to be asked here then 1.how does it group? Is it consistent? 2.has anyone else shot it and seen the same results? 3.have you tried multiple ammo brands? 4.can you get it zerod within the adjustment of the windage? 5. If you're answer to #4 is yes. Why are you expecting it to be centered in between the ears? 6. Have you ran a string from the post to rear notch to see if it's canted? Without a staight edge on it it is hard to see can't. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Someone else just had a similar problem. It's not unheard of to have to shift the post all the way to one side of the FSB. It seems to be within the expected range of performance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
charlieschoice 10 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) That someone else was me The thread here was titled "Question on Accuracy" Unlike you, I was dumb enough not to order a front sight tool with the gun and had to borrow one for the weekend because it was bugging me so much (I was shooting about 11" to the left at 50 yards). Honestly, and this may sound strange, I'm kind of liking it. I've worked my way out to 150 yards and the grouping is more than acceptable for the weapon and ammo IMO, and I actually find it easier to use the "left corner" of the front post on longer shots with my older eyes. I had a Mak 90 YEARS ago, and if I remember correctly, the front post wasn't centered perfect, although not maxed out to the left like the Saiga. I do however think the Saiga is grouping better. Edited January 3, 2012 by charlieschoice Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iarneau 44 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Mine is the same way, the front post is about 2/3 of the way to the left to bring POI to POA. As long as I can hit what I want to though, I don't worry about it. Gun Control- The theory that criminals (by definition, people who break laws) will follow a LAW that says they can't have a gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 I had a similar problem on a Siaga, but it was not the front sight, but the rear. The rear sight was at an angle because the front tabs that engage the trunnion were milled off-set, causing the rear sight to be angled. I removed a little from the front edge of one lug, a little from the rear of the opposite lug, and that centered it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlphaFive 0 Posted January 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Thank you for all the replies, guys! I appreciate the experiences, too. However... I'm the stubborn type, and if I can make things straighter, I'd really like to! Hutchsaiga - 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. No 4. Yes 5. Chose a Saiga over others because of quality purposes 6. I have not... I will be doing that tonight after work to confirm sights are centered on the rifle Imarangemaster - How do you remove the rear sight? I see there's a lever on the side there but I don't want to go fooling with things I'm not sure of. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) No lever needed. Press down on the front edge of the leaf, then push to the rear as the leaf is depressed. I bet your rear sight is crooked like mine was. You can also get an RPK style adjustable rear sight. They are good to have anyway! Use a hardwood dowel or brass drift punch. Edited January 3, 2012 by imarangemaster Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jamesavery22 54 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Was hoping to help but I'm a little lost. How is the Front tower not near the center of the bore but the FSB is not canted? Can you take a photo illustrating what you mean? A great photo would be the rifle completely stripped(no front HG) and use a laser level to show a straight line from the middle of the rear sight to the center of the front tower. Then show the line just outlining the barrel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 He means fronnt sight base (FSB) is straight, but the front sight post is way off to one side... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hutchsaiga 93 Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Thank you for all the replies, guys! I appreciate the experiences, too. However... I'm the stubborn type, and if I can make things straighter, I'd really like to! Hutchsaiga - 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. No 4. Yes 5. Chose a Saiga over others because of quality purposes 6. I have not... I will be doing that tonight after work to confirm sights are centered on the rifle Imarangemaster - How do you remove the rear sight? I see there's a lever on the side there but I don't want to go fooling with things I'm not sure of. Since you said you can get it zeroed its kind of pointless but range master nailed it with your rear sight. My channels in the trunnion were also inaproproitly milled. And the rear leaf would move about an 1/8 inch each way. I little tack of weld a file and some paint tightened it up. I bet your rear leaf is not centered in the trunnion over the bore. If you can get it zerod and the post isn't as far over as it goes don't worry about it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlphaFive 0 Posted January 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Thanks for the information on how to remove the rear sight! I'll be getting on that tonight... Tried to do it last night but it was in there pretty good, couldn't get it out with bare hands. I'll also try and take some photos that may be of some use, but my computer is a bit finnicky about uploading them at times. And just to clarify, you suggest looking at the surface where the sight seats to the rifle? or is it the sight itself that can be milled improperly? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 Both the sight base where the sight engages it and the lugs on the sight itself can be culprits. I took a small round file and relived the front of one side and the back of the other side, both ever so slighly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 well if the rifle can be zeroed, then its not defective. things like this are common with AK type rifles. if the rifle couldnt have been zeroed within its range of adjustment, then a defect may be the culprit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlphaFive 0 Posted January 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Ok, sorry for the delay guys, I'm up to my eyeballs in work these days. So no pictures, but I've now had 3 people (with far better vision than myself) confirm that the entire front sight block is canted clockwise. This also explains my need to have the front sight post more to the left. Could this be because of the way the barrel was threaded in? Is it possible it hasn't quite bottomed out? If this is a possibility, I have an armorer who would be willing to look at it, but ofcourse not for free, so I'd like to point him in a direction to keep the labor times down a bit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) id do it myself and save yourself some coin. drift out the two pins with a punch and adjust it with a rubber mallet as need be. be sure to support the barrel as you do so. you could prolly still shoot it with the pins out and make sure everything is to your liking before putting the pins back it. you may have to file the holes some (or drill) after moving the fsb. or if you dont feel comfortable doing so, just pay the man to do it. its up to you. it usually doesnt take much to realign the sight block. all the ones i seen that were canted, were not canted much. enough to notice though. others may chime in and give you some other ways of doing so. thats the good thing about this forum. Edited January 7, 2012 by Captain Hero Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 AKM barrels are pressed in, not threaded. If it were me, I'd just give the FSB a corrective whack with a mallet. But that's just me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 AKM barrels are pressed in, not threaded. If it were me, I'd just give the FSB a corrective whack with a mallet. But that's just me. i never tried that. does it work? i was afraid of damaging the sight block ears or something. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 I did it on my Norinco Hunter before I decided to remove the block. There was no damage even with a brass mallet. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlphaFive 0 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 id do it myself and save yourself some coin. drift out the two pins with a punch and adjust it with a rubber mallet as need be. be sure to support the barrel as you do so. you could prolly still shoot it with the pins out and make sure everything is to your liking before putting the pins back it. you may have to file the holes some (or drill) after moving the fsb. or if you dont feel comfortable doing so, just pay the man to do it. its up to you. it usually doesnt take much to realign the sight block. all the ones i seen that were canted, were not canted much. enough to notice though. others may chime in and give you some other ways of doing so. thats the good thing about this forum. It's really that easy? No kidding.... I have a good block and a punch set (for an AR, hopefully one fits the FSB, haven't checked) so it should be pretty easy. Thanks alot! Citizen, my apologies for the ignorance on the AK barrel, I had no idea they were pressed in. Good to know, thank you for the information! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 id do it myself and save yourself some coin. drift out the two pins with a punch and adjust it with a rubber mallet as need be. be sure to support the barrel as you do so. you could prolly still shoot it with the pins out and make sure everything is to your liking before putting the pins back it. you may have to file the holes some (or drill) after moving the fsb. or if you dont feel comfortable doing so, just pay the man to do it. its up to you. it usually doesnt take much to realign the sight block. all the ones i seen that were canted, were not canted much. enough to notice though. others may chime in and give you some other ways of doing so. thats the good thing about this forum. It's really that easy? No kidding.... I have a good block and a punch set (for an AR, hopefully one fits the FSB, haven't checked) so it should be pretty easy. Thanks alot! Citizen, my apologies for the ignorance on the AK barrel, I had no idea they were pressed in. Good to know, thank you for the information! just be aware that usually the fsb is on there pretty damn good. even with the pins out i never seen one "flop". its a damn tight fit. the pins are actually a soft steel and not hardened, so the mallet wack could work for you, depending on how far canted it is. and theres always the possiblilty of the holes needing to have a tad bigger pins made after the removal, movement, and re-fitting the holes for the pins. you could make them if you had to. hope it helps ya. I did it on my Norinco Hunter before I decided to remove the block. There was no damage even with a brass mallet. well that makes sense, since the pins are kinda softer than fsb to begin with. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlphaFive 0 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) Either of you two know what size pins are in the FSB? And are they solid pins, or roll pins? I'm gonna remove them to try and move the block, but if I'm gonna go that route I'd like to just replace the pins instead of using the old ones. Edited January 8, 2012 by AlphaFive Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 not sure exactly what size right off hand, but you can get replacements http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16604&cat=0&page=1 pretty cheap. just looking at my sgl, they dont look to be bigger than 1/8 inch. but take a few punches and see what one looks best for fit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
irishsandman 17 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 I had a Mak 90 YEARS ago . . . Holy crap, ninety years ago?!? you must have old eyes! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 If you move the sight, you will need to drill for oversize pins anyhow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlphaFive 0 Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 If you move the sight, you will need to drill for oversize pins anyhow. Even if it's moved without removing the pins? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stoned_Oli 4 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Older thread, but I have discovered that certain welding rods are just a wee bit larger than the FSB pins, at least on a MAK 90. I made a new one by chucking a section of scrap welding rod into my Dremel and sanding it until it fit, no more than a couple thousandths of an inch. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pfbz 3 Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 I've been reading all these front sight threads, as my front sight looks like this to be zero'ed at 50 yards. Obviously a bit off from center in the ears. I'll check my rear sight, and either live with it, give it a hammer whack, or take it to somebody for a re-pin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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