Damn they sound pissed..s-12 Knoxx drum..

[Bravo 26 2]

Rec'd this email from the guys at stoney creek armory:

 

 

 

Stonycreek will not pursue the saiga-12 project in anyway, shape or form.

We have completely stopped any plans for such an item.

We have deleted the waiting list and are not be interested in any further

discussion of the product or it possible future.

----- Original Message -----

 

Looks like:

 

1. The ATF gomers gave them a spanking

2. They read this board, and got scared of the DD potential

3. They read this board and got pissed off at some negative comments

4. They got wind of the new importer doing mag biz, and didnt want to compete.

 

Damn shame that, I really wanted one... Oh well. I'll stick with my 9 rounders. Wah.

Edited September 23, 2005 by Bravo 26

[shooter2 5]

Rec'd this email from the guys at stoney creek armory:

 

Stonycreek will not pursue the saiga-12 project in anyway, shape or form.

We have completely stopped any plans for such an item.

We have deleted the waiting list and are not be interested in any further

discussion of the product or it possible future.

 

Oh well. If it keeps the S-12 off the ATF's sh*t list, that's fine by me. Given SCA's checkered history with the MAC drums, I doubt I'd have bought one, anyway. Box mags are cheaper, more reliable and more convenient to carry.

[KySoldier 2]

I'm still waiting to get a MAC drum from them, supposedly I'm on a "waiting list".... They haven't listed them on their website since like February.

[McUZI 1]

Looks like:

 

1. The ATF gomers gave them a spanking

2. They read this board, and got scared of the DD potential

3. They read this board and got pissed off at some negative comments

4. They got wind of the new importer doing mag biz, and didnt want to compete.

 

Yup. I'm sure any one of those was part of the decision, save for #1.

I really doubt that ATF is out hunting 922r violations and if they find one, they probably don't take them too seriously presuming it was a simple technical error with no ill intent.

 

Add to that

 

5. They showed a Non 922r compliant S12 with a ten round drum magazine on their website and were embarrassed when they got called on it (as people assume such operations know such things)

 

6. People on this website seem to be leaning heavily towards Z1500's box magazines, and have said so in another thread

 

It's unfortunate that they nixed the project as I would have bought one just for grins, but given things as they stood/stand, I can understand why they did.

Edited September 23, 2005 by McUZI

[Bravo 26 2]

McUzi,

 

I'm sure you are right, but I still would not put it past the ATF guys to call em up and give em a "freindly" warning. We all know they are watching.

[Caspian 32]

IIRC, someone made a functional drum from a knoxx, but they ran into a lot of problems b/c there wasn't a groove for the rim of the shell thus allowing it to misfeed.

 

maybe they realized a drum is marginal and the sticks that will be coming (hopefully) will work better.

 

caspian

[Bvamp 604]

one more option:

 

RAAC called them up and either threatened them, or announced intention to sue.

 

 

I will tend to lean to the atf seeing the drum on the gun in the pic and putting thier foot down, but what I just said is also a strong possibility.

 

either way i dont care! that means the saigas WILL be imported now.

[Shep 0]

Could have been Knoxx that told them to drop it. Seem to recall that Knoxx isn't to fond of the idea of their drums being used on a semi-auto.

 

 

Shep

[Bvamp 604]

either way, this is a definate sign that now is the time to sell if you invested in s12's for profit. they are going back on the gun shop racks.....finally. I know about a dozen guys locally that are waiting for them to come back so they can buy one. I had one guy up to 600 bucks for my unconverted s12 that I have, but this is one gun Im not parting with.

[acetomatoco 0]

My god, the dumbfucks show an unconverted 'Not 922r Compliant' Saiga 12 w/ the 10 round drum.

Total no-no.

 

As i've made clear, i'm not on the DD Chicken Little bandwagon, but if it were to happen, it would be because of idiots like that. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

5. They showed a Non 922r compliant S12 with a ten round drum magazine on their website and were embarrassed when they got called on it (as people assume such operations know such things)

You ASSUME that it is Not 922(r ) compliant from an external picture.

Please tell us who made the internal parts and the barrel without ASSUMING.

Please PROVE to us what parts are in there.

Who made them? Where? and out of what material?

[SaigaK 0]

5. They showed a Non 922r compliant S12 with a ten round drum magazine on their website and were embarrassed when they got called on it (as people assume such operations know such things)

 

Man....sometimes I think we are are own worst enemies. Look at us.....we calling the ATF on a guy thats on our side.

[McUZI 1]

Please tell us who made the internal parts and the barrel without ASSUMING.

Please PROVE to us what parts are in there.

Who made them? Where? and out of what material?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are right.

There is a 'possibility' within the furthest reaches of chance that someone from Stoney Creek Armory fabricated from scratch, a totally unique set of US compliance parts for a Saiga sporter, installed them, and then left the gun in the sporter configuration just to drive it out of their home state of CT (since such a conversion is illegal there- State AWB, ya know...) just to take the pictures of the drum magazine.

 

Or maybe they took a bone stock sporter and installed a drum magazine because they didn't know better.

 

Occams Razor, the answer is #2.

Don't be a stupid apologist willing to reach into bizarre, highly unlikely hypotheticals to justify your ideas. That's what liberals do.

They made a stupid mistake based on an even stupider law. It seems as if they concluded it all by taking their ball and going home.

 

Oh well.

[McUZI 1]

5. They showed a Non 922r compliant S12 with a ten round drum magazine on their website and were embarrassed when they got called on it (as people assume such operations know such things)

 

Man....sometimes I think we are are own worst enemies. Look at us.....we calling the ATF on a guy thats on our side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Reading comprehension- I seriously doubt that anyone 'called the ATF' on them.

When the phrase 'got called on it' was written, it was to imply that they made technical error as it pertains to the law and someone brought up said error thus the 'getting called on it' part.

[mopeman 0]

Piss on them, they did this the last time around!

[shaneman153a 39]

Mcuzi,

 

I love that F&*^in' avatar!!

[SaigaK 0]

Reading comprehension- I seriously doubt that anyone 'called the ATF' on them.

When the phrase 'got called on it' was written, it was to imply that they made technical error as it pertains to the law and someone brought up said error thus the 'getting called on it' part.

 

Theyre still basically being henchman for the ATF. It wouldnt surprise me if theyre waiting for the ATF to process thier applications.

[OKGUY91 0]

In BATFE eyes adding a 10 mag on a pump and semi is not he same. The bush ban is a sporting non sporting ban. It still bans HK's FN"S AK with out us parts. It not ok in there eyes for us to have no sproting guns. I don't like it but that is how it is.

[Bvamp 604]

all i know is there is sanctioned and ranked public competitions that use these guns and other so called "non-sporting" firearms. the sporting clause is illegal. simple.

 

they should just pass a law that says "the us govt. will not be outgunned man per man" and get it over with.

 

its too bad the right to bear arms was put there to begin with to keep the people in control of the government. it seems people would rewrite our forefather's words at a whim or for a bribe.

[epsylum 0]

its too bad the right to bear arms was put there to begin with to keep the people in control of the government. it seems people would rewrite our forefather's words at a whim or for a bribe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

+1

[G O B 3,516]

+2

 

G O B

[acetomatoco 0]

Please tell us who made the internal parts and the barrel without ASSUMING.

Please PROVE to us what parts are in there.

Who made them? Where? and out of what material?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are right.

There is a 'possibility' within the furthest reaches of chance that someone from Stoney Creek Armory fabricated from scratch, a totally unique set of US compliance parts for a Saiga sporter, installed them, and then left the gun in the sporter configuration just to drive it out of their home state of CT (since such a conversion is illegal there- State AWB, ya know...) just to take the pictures of the drum magazine.

 

Or maybe they took a bone stock sporter and installed a drum magazine because they didn't know better.

 

Occams Razor, the answer is #2.

Don't be a stupid apologist willing to reach into bizarre, highly unlikely hypotheticals to justify your ideas. That's what liberals do.

They made a stupid mistake based on an even stupider law. It seems as if they concluded it all by taking their ball and going home.

 

Oh well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your reply is lame,weak,pathetic and full of BULLSHIT.

Your original post stated "My god, the dumbfucks show an unconverted 'Not 922r Compliant' Saiga 12 w/ the 10 round drum.

Total no-no."

We all know "Not 922( r ) Compliant" means that it is illegal and I asked you to prove it. You ask other people to prove things, now its your turn to back-up your comment.

Here is a quote you might remember.

Is a Folding Stock Legal?????? Sorry,Basic Question

If someone says something is 'illegal' or otherwise restricted, it is then up to them to show you what law or statute restricts the item in question.

When they can't, you can then call them a dumbfuck and be right.

I'm not asking for what law or statute restricts them because I know what they are. I asked you to prove that Stoney Creek's pictured shotgun is illegal based on the picture and parts.

You ASSUME that it is Not 922(r ) compliant from an external picture.

Please tell us who made the internal parts and the barrel without ASSUMING.

Please PROVE to us what parts are in there.

Who made them? Where? and out of what material?

In your response to this you did not give us any FACTS or PROOF about the internal parts, barrel or US Compliant parts count but gave us more ASSUMPTIONS and THEORY.

You made up an opposing story/theory that WAS NOT MINE to convince other readers that your speculation was the correct answer.

In your made up opposing story:

1)You related it was: Someone from Stonycreek Armory

(could have been anybody)

2)You related they: fabricated from scratch a totally unique set of US compliance parts for a Saiga Sporter.

(could have been made from modified parts)(Do you know their source and quantities made?)

3)You related they: then left the gun in the sporter configuration

(Do you know what type of FFL or Manufacturers License they have?)

4)You related they had to: drive it out of their home state of CT just to take the pictures of the drum magazine.

(Did they drive? Were they in CT? Did they take the pictures?)

Or maybe they took a bone stock sporter and installed a drum magazine because they didn't know better.

 

Occams Razor, the answer is #2.

Dam Were you There? PROVE IT

Simple answer for simple minds.Draw within the lines and never leave the box.

A GUESS that would not hold up in our legal system without FACTS or evidence.

Occams Razor does not necessarily mean the simplest answer is correct.

It's possible that,given more information,a more complex theory might turn out to be correct, the majority of the time.

Both of the answers could be wrong because there can be numerous other theories.

Our Legal System deals with FACTS,EVIDENCE and TRUTH, Not ASSUMPTIONS.

From that picture no one can positively say that shotgun is illegal (not 922(r ) compliant) or legal. There are not enough facts about all of the parts. Are they all even in there?

I'm not defending Stoneycreek Armory in any way because I really don't care how they acquired that photo.No matter how they did it,Prove it.

It's also pretty funny when someone sees a good thing and doesn't know when to keep their mouth closed and piss in someones cereal. Imagine that, A Knoxx drum right there 1 second and POOF gone.

Did the owner of that weapon get the $200 tax stamp so that they could do whatever they wanted to that Saiga 12? What's so far fetched,bizarre,highly unlikely or hypothetical about that? People on this forum have considered getting a tax stamp so they could build a Saiga 12 anyway they want to.

You should heed your own warning. Don't be a stupid apologist/liberal for trying to defend your illegal shotgun theory based solely on an external picture and trying to convince everyone with assumptions, speculation, Occams Razor,made up theories, insults and propaganda.

We had enough of the bullshit. Prove It.

[McUZI 1]

acetomatoco

 

You have got to be the windiest motherfucker in the history of the internet. The inability to make a sharp, clear point is usually the first sign that someone is wrong.

IN order to respond to your insane barrage of hypotheticals and 'what if's', I find myself having to get similarly windy, but i'll try to keep things as concise as possible.

 

Your reply is lame,weak,pathetic and full of BULLSHIT.

Please tell us who made the internal parts and the barrel without ASSUMING.

Please PROVE to us what parts are in there.

Who made them? Where? and out of what material?

In your response to this you did not give us any FACTS or PROOF about the internal parts, barrel or US Compliant parts count but gave us more ASSUMPTIONS and THEORY.

No, I gave the most likely answer.

There is always a far out possibility that anyone can reach towards, and like i've already said once already, that's what liberals do.

They raise hypotheticals as smoke screens and then start to demand proof for the most likely scenarios.

Let me draw you an analogy.

 

Let's say that a burglary is committed and seen fleeing the scene is a seven foot tall man wearing a yellow jumpsuit.

You are a policeman responding to the call when you spot a man running down the street who is seven feet tall wearing a yellow jumpsuit.

Do you detain him?

Of course.

Now, there is a *possibility* that he is totally innocent.

That there may have been another seven foot tall man in a yellow jumpsuit in the same area at the same time.

 

Now, do you as the police officer release him since you cannot 'prove' that it was him?

 

Given your previous replies, I know you will be totally unable to answer the question with a simple yes or no answer but I hope this little walk down the garden path gives you that little 'uncomfortable' feeling one gets when one knows they're being idiotic and incorrect.

 

Both of the answers could be wrong because there can be numerous other theories. Our Legal System deals with FACTS,EVIDENCE and TRUTH, Not ASSUMPTIONS.

 

Right. Our legal system also has mechanisms in place to gather evidence and question involved parties.

The internet doesn't.

Thus, one makes assumptions based on the most likely scenario.

 

_________________________________________________

 

Anyway, let me give you an example of what you are doing here by demanding 'proof' in the face of the most likely scenario.

 

I say China doesn't exist.

 

"But it does!" you say!

 

Nope, there is no China.

 

You proceed to provide links, pictures and detailed accounts of China and the Chinese people, to which I respond that it's all a lie perpetrated by those people who would have you believe in a "China".

 

Maybe you've BEEN to China?

 

HA!

It's all a lie... The airlines really fly people to Vietnam where the native people are paid very well to convince tourists that they're in a place called China.

In short, China doesn't exist. It's a conspiracy.

 

Now, I would ask you to PROVE TO ME THERE IS A CHINA.

Here I am saying that China doesn't even exist.

Do you disagree with me?

PROVE IT!

I will bet that you cannot prove there is a China without having to cite the propaganda put out by the "China" people that only exists to convince you that there is a China.

 

Do you see how stupid that is?

Anyone can raise hypotheticals ad infinitum to counter the most basic likelihoods.

 

You cite our legal system being based on fact.

You're correct. In our legal system, someone like yourself would be flattened in a second with your hypotheticals.

 

As I said, there is a possibility that you are right.

I would, however, bet my lifes savings that you aren't.

[Bvamp 604]

I forgot. you are the resident know it all expert, mcuzi. you are the only one here that knows anything about anything. forgot for a minute there, MY BAD.

[McUZI 1]

I forgot. you are the resident know it all expert, mcuzi. you are the only one here that knows anything about anything. forgot for a minute there, MY BAD.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are an individual who consistently shows himself to know nothing about everything, so if I come off that way to someone like yourself, it isn't much of a shock.

You're also the single worst hypocrite i've ever seen.

The whole 'anti-racist crusader' out in the open when you yourself send unsolicited 'racist' IM's?

 

It's disgusting, and betrays what sort of corroded and worthless two faced character that makes you as a man.

Edited October 4, 2005 by McUZI

[gunboy69 50]

Thanks Mcuzi,

I just got off work....bad day......there is no china.....laughing my ass off! Thats sarcastic comedy gold!!!

[Bvamp 604]

nah see mcuzi, in order to be racist, you have to hate someone because of the simple color of thier skin or what blood they have in them. thats not how i see it. i dislike everybody, and everybody has a name, including me, the wop. you must have misunderstood me. get it right, i hate everyone until they prove to me that i shouldnt hate them.

 

as for not knowing anything, I think you are also mistaken. you seem to like to pick out little pieces of what people say and mould that to what you want to think we are saying.

 

and then as for you? ive seen your picture on your fan site. you dont look very arian to me, buddy. in fact, I bet hitler or the ss would have had you shot for your impure blood. you should examine your own self. I highly doubt that you are half nazi blood like myself. I guess that means shit seeing how im also part cossack. what about my wop side? you know us dirty sicilians. we are big stupid racists.

 

oh yeh, did I mention that I hate nazis too? yehp, I must be racist huh. hell I hate cops too. must be a cop racist then right? (I hate lawyers, judges, court clerks, you name it) how about the fuckers up here invading my area from mexico and NYC and NJ? i must hate mexicans right? or city folk? yeh im real racist mcuzi. because I use the names for all of them individually at a level that is most insulting means about zilch. what makes one racist is hating someone just because they arent like you. I hate people because of thier bullshit. and ya'll know about other people's bullshit, im sure.

 

maybe I am racist. If I had to call it something, I would say Im a homosapien racist.

[Bvamp 604]

and with that said, I will say it again:

 

this gun forum is not censored. however, this is not the place to show your biggotry. that sort of thing should be kept on the OTHER heavily-monitored-by-the-fbi racist sites.

 

besides, namecalling is for children.

 

"oh you are black, I hate you!"

 

"oh you are white, I hate you too!"

 

 

dont that sound like, fucking STUPID?

 

 

e-fucking-nough already.

[McUZI 1]

nah see mcuzi, in order to be racist, you have to hate someone because of the simple color of thier skin or what blood they have in them. thats not how i see it.

Then why when I posted the IM you sent me for all to see, you immediately deleted it?

 

You should have no problem with me posting it now, then.

Right?

[fullchoke 0]

and with that said, I will say it again:

 

this gun forum is not censored. however, this is not the place to show your biggotry. that sort of thing should be kept on the OTHER heavily-monitored-by-the-fbi racist sites.

 

besides, namecalling is for children.

 

"oh you are black, I hate you!"

 

"oh you are white, I hate you too!"

 

 

dont that sound like, fucking STUPID?

 

 

e-fucking-nough already.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I agree take the racist stuff away we don't need it here. Please think before you post.

[Bvamp 604]

no its not ok McUzi. Like I told you, what I say in private stays in private. regardless of what its about. Im sure people get the idea anyway. I dont deny hating people at all. I just dont push it on people in public.

 

tell ya what? lay off the racist bullshit on this forum for this one reason:

 

people of every walk of life and race/religeon have died and continue to die for this country and your right to be an asshole. maybe you should think about that a little bit, and consider that you are giving those people in particular a disgraceful and evil acknowledgement.

 

if only the law applied to the second amendmant the way it applies to the first....wait...it DOES. shit, why dont you start a crusade on that instead of hating people you know nothing about? At least I dislike EVERYONE until proven different. you dislike people because they simply are not like you. that is the difference McUzi.

 

go ahead, push me some more. I told you that you are welcome here, even though the rest of the internet hates your guts. I can get rid of you, and unless you plan on using dialup to call out of state, I can keep you rid of. yes, I can just block proxies too, so dont even think that floats.

 

I think showing some respect for the fucking dead is enough reason for you to leave that racist shit elsewhere, McUzi. And Im sure everyone else will agree with me on that one.

 

anyway, I fucking feel like im fucking lecturing a fucking child here. grow the fuck up. end of the goddamn discussion. Im not your friggin guardian. if you cant respect the other members here, in a GUN forum, then maybe you should go talk guns on your KayKayKay site instead.

 

....and wash your sheets.