talaananthes 3 Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) Any particular reason not to use cut shots out of a Saiga 12? Any special safety or function considerations? I realize they won't feed out of a magazine, but assuming they are safe to fire from the Saiga action, would they work as the chambered shell above a stack of standard shot? Edited June 22, 2012 by talaananthes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 I haven't done it, but it has been done. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Live2Ride 12 Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Stupid question what is a cut shot? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
talaananthes 3 Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Where you cut part ways around a load of birdshot so the shot and plastic hull shoot out together unopened to make an improvised slug equivalent. Don't try it without looking up better instructions how to do it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fallschirmjager667 729 Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 you mean is it safe to fire oversize projectiles through your gun? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Live2Ride 12 Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 That seems really stupid. probably another stupid question, why not just buy slugs? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
talaananthes 3 Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) The reason why, in my case, is for the safety of the other people who live in my apartment building. What I want to do is simulate the monolithic hitting power of a slug with a fragmented projectile. Sure, shoot a zombie with birdshot and it'll dig out a lot of meat, but if you're talking about a fat or super muscular zombie, it might not dig far enough to reach vital organs (er, brains). Most well done in-meat tests of birdshot I've seen show that it tends to make a massive 4" hole, and we all know zombies don't bleed to death (quickly enough that those darn smart zombies might not shoot you back before they stay down). My thought is that this or something similar would hit with the flesh penetrating power of a slug but would begin to fragment and lose penetration as soon as it hits a wall. A real slug, on the other hand, or even buckshot, will go through a much, much larger number of walls than I'm comfortable with while still retaining killing force. Edited June 22, 2012 by talaananthes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JoeAK 337 Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) I don't think you should use any improvised rounds for HD, I hear you can get into legal trouble over that. If just have to and you wanna take the legal risk though, I'd go with wax slugs, if you make 'em right they feed from a magazine just fine, and you won't run the risk of shooting oversized projectiles or the hull getting stuck in the barrel. Edited June 22, 2012 by JoeAK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 I doub't they'd feed worth a shit, creating a JAM o MATIC pos. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
talaananthes 3 Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) They definitely won't feed. You don't feed them. As for wax slugs . . . not a bad idea, but would take some experimenting. I live in Kentucky, we have very good legal protections for self defense, and in my city at least law enforcement who are generally friendly to self defense. The problem would be, finding a bonding agent (and it may well not be wax) that would both hold the mass of shot together through firing and flight, but disintegrate upon impact with drywall. That may be an impossible task, although my walls are made of real old style plaster that's significantly more solid than drywall which might ease the burden somewhat. Another idea is, 16 gauge shells have the same diameter as the bore of a 12 gauge. Ie, no oversized projectile. What about entirely cutting off the shot and plastic cup and hull of a 16 gauge birdshot shell and loading that intact into a cleaned out 12 gauge hull? Edited June 23, 2012 by talaananthes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RED333 1,025 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Make wax loads, look it up on you tube, Some was talked about on the froum as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
talaananthes 3 Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I'll look into those. Are there any particular videos showing speed of fragmentation on impact? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I wonder how well that "tool dip" would work instead of wax.. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 If you put one in the chamber by hand and the rest that are in the magazine are normal, you won't have any problem. Just make damn sure you cut it right. You would be better off just dumping some wax down the shell after you gently squeeze the crimp to open it up just a RCH. It does about the same damage. Good trick to know if you ever become dirt poor or find yourself in a situation where you can't purchase a cheap slug. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
talaananthes 3 Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) I'll look into the wax slugs more. Any tests been done and videotaped about their penetration through drywall? Edited June 23, 2012 by talaananthes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 If you live in an apartment, you need to use a handgun with frangible ammo for defense... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
banshee 69 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) I know it has been done for years, but I don't think it is good for ANY shotgun. Edited June 23, 2012 by Banshee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Man Out 1,283 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Am I missing something? I know of no one, not even a speed freak zombie that would not at least flinch and slow down a tad when a 4 inch deep chunk is dramatically subtracted from them... If you are talking about a HD sit, a hit like that would def discourage any continued attack -- especially when we remember we are talking bout the Saiga12, a mag fed shotgun. A follow up shot on a wounded attacker, if needed would be easy to take. All this talk of tweaking ammo is lost on me in light of the above... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Yeah, I know, I mean the federal agent who was only knocked unconscious when shot in the head with birdshot and the recent incident where a burglar was shot in the face with birdshot and only suffered serious but not life threatening injuries should PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that birdshot is CLEARLY the best choice for home defense! Oh wait... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RED333 1,025 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Here we go again, damn. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
talaananthes 3 Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Yeah can we please not get into this? Birdshot at close range will most likely make a horrible, awful wound that will usually put most people down and out of any confrontation. Statistically, though, it doesn't have the reliability and depth of penetration of heavier shot. If you disagree, great, but please do so elsewhere. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fallschirmjager667 729 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 i'd say a 3" turkey load would be your best bet, use 3" just for reliability, maybe #4 shot Quote Link to post Share on other sites
talaananthes 3 Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I was kinda thinking that. Better than WalMart #8 anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RED333 1,025 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/78258-bird-shot-for-home-defence-video/ Why start another thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deadeye 325 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 I like the wax slugs just for fun. they will go through a truck tire at 50 feet. so they would probably go thrugh a wall too. I have shot a lot of them and would not use them for home defence. more as just another range toy. for defence buy some unmodified ammo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Man Out 1,283 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Yeah can we please not get into this? Birdshot at close range will most likely make a horrible, awful wound that will usually put most people down and out of any confrontation. Statistically, though, it doesn't have the reliability and depth of penetration of heavier shot. If you disagree, great, but please do so elsewhere. Hey, I appreciate the politeness of your request but other than the whole freedom of speech thing I really don't see the need. If my question somehow irritates you, then may I suggest you please take your irritation elsewhere. BTW, I completely agree with sentence number 2 and 3 in you paragraph above -- but what do they have to do with refuting what I originally wrote??? No one in their right mind would make a claim that a hit with birdshot would do more damage than one with 00 buck. Sorry to stir the waters -- would you blow if I were to mention that I prefer butter over margarine????? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Man Out 1,283 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Yeah, I know, I mean the federal agent who was only knocked unconscious when shot in the head with birdshot and the recent incident where a burglar was shot in the face with birdshot and only suffered serious but not life threatening injuries should PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that birdshot is CLEARLY the best choice for home defense! Oh wait... Caged Free your mind dude, where in my post did I ever advocate birdshot being the best for home defense??? But since you want to play, let's play. I don't suppose the Fed Agent was wearing a Kevlar helmet by chance??? Hmmm, would being knocked unconscious render an an attacker less of a threat? Hmmm. Okay let's take the burglar with the serious facial injuries. Anyone out there want to claim that the burgler remained a threat after sustaining serious injuries? I doubt his vision remains 20/20. Hmmm. It seems like there is a bent here for advocating the most lethal ammo available. My point was that it will not be the best load to use in all cases. Education is key. I just don't want some testosterone filled idiot accidentilly killing their apartment nieghbor with 00 buck or slug because they think the loads are the be all end all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rentprop1 0 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 you actually care about the others in your apartment complex .....lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 (edited) A 12GA shell measures a nominal 0.800" in front. That's about the same as a 9GA barrel would be, or slightly larger than a 10GA barrel. As the 0.800" cut shell front moves into the barrel, it has to be squeezed down to approx. 0.729". That's a swage of 0.071", with pressure building behind the projectile as it is forced forward into a barrel too small for it. Anyone want to guess what the pressure would be? It could also blow out the crimp AFTER lodging the cut section partway down the barrel. Any bets as to what happens when the next cut shell follows it? If it didn't KABOOM! on the 1st shot, it has a much greater chance of a KABOOM! on the 2nd. I'll pass. Ever see a gun explode when someone's shooting it? I have, more than once. It's not pretty. Your FACE is only a few inches away. So is your carotid artery. Use your head. You're not Wil E. Coyote. You die ONCE. Edited June 24, 2012 by patriot 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deadeye 325 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 A 12GA shell measures a nominal 0.800" in front. That's about the same as a 9GA barrel would be, or slightly larger than a 10GA barrel. As the 0.800" cut shell front moves into the barrel, it has to be squeezed down to approx. 0.729". That's a swage of 0.071", with pressure building behind the projectile as it is forced forward into a barrel too small for it. Anyone want to guess what the pressure would be? It could also blow out the crimp AFTER lodging the cut section partway down the barrel. Any bets as to what happens when the next cut shell follows it? If it didn't KABOOM! on the 1st shot, it has a much greater chance of a KABOOM! on the 2nd. I'll pass. Ever see a gun explode when someone's shooting it? I have, more than once. It's not pretty. Your FACE is only a few inches away. So is your carotid artery. Use your head. You're not Wil E. Coyote. You die ONCE. I agree not something I want to mess with Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.