Failure to eject issue sorted

[Brian M1 50]

A long time ago, I posted an issue with my 223's failure to eject issues (can't find the thread, so here's a new one). After it spending almost a month with a well known gunsmith who couldn't resolve it (obviously an AR guy), I picked it up today and dropped it off with a much more AK skilled gunsmith who obviously know his AK stuff (this guy even builds them from the ground up with flats). The verdict was exactly as I had suspected. Without me even saying anything, he took it in the back, ran some dummy rounds through it, stripped it, and came back 10 mins later telling me what I feared. The bolt is sloppy. It seems I recieved a "vodka special" where both the bolt AND the carrier were at the loosest end of the tolerances.

This is how my rifle works: The carrier is tight to the reciever, but has loose fit for the bolt. The bolt is slightly undersized so it has loose fit in the carrier. So upon cycling, the bolt shimmy's over enough that the ejector edge sometimes doesn't even contact the rim base, causing the ejector to rub against the side of the rim (thus why I had deep cuts in the rim bases. This was often not enough to throw the case, and instead it would stay, or drop into the reciever, causing a jam. My rifle got progressively worse because (as he explained), the more this happened, the more it shaved the edge off the ejector tip, and he was right.. it did.

The gunsmith explained it, and added, the .223 is the least ideal round for the AK action. 1), it is at the LEAST end of tolerances for ejection (thus my issue), as the loose tolerances allow for both a huge contact area on rim for the larger cases (x39 and even the 5.45) and when casings are downsized to .223, you are left with BARELY enough ejector to hit the rim, and 2) the .223 is not a tapered cartridge (as x39 and 5.45 is), thus also lessening the AK's inherent ability for robust extraction. The 223 is harder to extract, no doubt about it.

Don't get me wrong... the AK in .223 WORKS. However... you will NEVER have the extra measures that is inherent in the AK larger calibers. Everything has to be tighter tolerance with with .223. So when you wind up with an out of spec version, like mine, it's a FAIL.

 

So... how to fix? Well there are 2 options. 1) try a new bolt (but with my loose (internal) carrier, that's not too much help, not to mention the possible head spacing headaches). or 2) Add some meat to the ejector adge/tip (which is what he is going to do). This will cause the ejector to contact the more of the rim. On the other hand, it will also force the bolt to continue shimmying to the side (as it has been). Not an ideal action, but the lessor of the evils here. So option 2 is what I chose (and he also recomended).

I learned a lesson with this project. The 223 CAN work 100% in an AK... but it will never have the redundant reliability specs built in, as the 223 is maxing out those specs. Knowing this now, I'd spend a little extra for a larger rimmed cartridge version (x39, 5.45, .308).

 

Just thought I'd share my malfunction issue with others in case anyone is experiencing the same thing.

Happy shooting!

-Brian

[mancat 2,368]

There are a number of militaries fielding AKs in 5.56 that have passed all of the torture tests necessary to be approved for service, so.. There is nothing inherently unreliable about a 5.56/.223 AK, despite what your gunsmith has said. There is some truth to the tapered case of 5.45/7.62 aiding in extraction, but we are probably talking about failures in filthy chambers that have seen thousands of rounds without cleaning.

 

It just sounds like you got a bit of a factory dud.

 

As far as I know, the large extractor from a 5.45 bolt should fit into the Saiga .223 bolt. I'm not at home so I can't do an eyeball verification of this.

 

FWIW, both my Saiga .223 carrier/bolt and Bulgarian AK-74 carrier/bolt have a VERY tight fit of the bolt/carrier. There is almost zero slop, even when swapping bolts between the two carriers or vice versa. The Saiga .223 even headspaces properly and runs reliably with the 5.45 bolt, either in the Saiga .223 or Bulgarian AK-74 carrier.

Edited August 12, 2012 by mancat

[thebuns1 4,323]

i dont have hardly any play at all in my .223 or my 5.45. when i rotate the bolt as if im going to remove it, and free it from the recess on the carrier, then try to wiggle it side to side with it fully seated in the carrier, there is very very little play.

 

do you have another saiga bolt carrier that you could try your current bolt on? even if its a friends gun, the bolt stems should be the same size in all calibers of saigas.

if it were me, id try checking your bolt with another carrier and see if it still has the sloppy play in it. then you'll know for sure that its both your carrier and bolt, and not just one or the other, rather than to bandaid the current issue.

 

bad thing is neither part comes cheap alone, and bolts are next to impossible to find at the moment.

 

ETA: hell you could take your bolt to the gun store and try it in one of the carriers there if they have a saiga. my local shop lets me do shit like this.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Captain Hero

[Brian M1 50]

Yeah, I DEFINITELY received a sloppy Saiga, no doubt about it. Happens I guess. If it were a proper fit, I wouldn't have the issue to begin with. Too late now, though. Hopefully the smith will have luck with adding metal to the extractor. He know's what he's doing, so I'll trust him on this.

The smith did not think swapping bolts was a great idea. He felt the carrier, itself, was of looser tolerance as well (which means the proper sized bolt would still have some slop, not to mention that locating a Saiga .223 bolt these days is like finding a unicorn). A carrier AND bolt swap could likely remedy this issue, but at that point, I feel it's just not worth it (cost wise). I think I'll be happier getting this one running and selling it, replacing it with a larger x39.

I didn't mean to say .223 AK's are unreliable at all. I just meant that the redundant "failsafe" tolerances that were built into the x39 design are dinimished as you move to a smaller casing, such as .223 (smaller casing requires tighter fitment). There just isn't enough rim left to accomodate it.

I will say this... I LOVE the AK design and will either keep this one, or replace it with another :-)

Edited August 13, 2012 by Brian M1

[thebuns1 4,323]

swapping bolts really aint bad so long as you check the headspace with the new bolt. if it checks out ok, then its a non issue. but as you know, the stock status of them is currently fucked. the bad thing is that later on down the road, replacement of the parts in question will likely have to be made. and possibly the guide rail as well. but if you can get it running good again, then fuck it. it just may hold up good. just sorry you got a lemon.

[Brian M1 50]

swapping bolts really aint bad so long as you check the headspace with the new bolt. if it checks out ok, then its a non issue. but as you know, the stock status of them is currently fucked. the bad thing is that later on down the road, replacement of the parts in question will likely have to be made. and possibly the guide rail as well. but if you can get it running good again, then fuck it. it just may hold up good. just sorry you got a lemon.

 

Thanks man! Yeah, me too. Hope this fix resolves it. The gunsmith actually laughed when I told him "I thought a Russain Ak would be better than that". He stated "I've worked on as many Russians as Romy's, Bulgy's, Chech's, Pol's. Their all the same. Only difference is Russians have better finish on them". This from a guy who builds AK's. At this point I'm lusting after a M+M Romy reciever M10-672. However, not crazy about a Tapco buttstock and railed forend (thus adding about $130 to swap out), but loving the idea of x39 with chrome line (forged) barrel/gas port and G2 FCG and hogue grip already in place. We'll see how it goes!

[liberty -r- death 1,445]

Sounds like franken gun. What exactly is this one going to be when it's all said and done.

[canoecanoe 63]

A long time ago, I posted an issue with my 223's failure to eject issues (can't find the thread, so here's a new one). After it spending almost a month with a well known gunsmith who couldn't resolve it (obviously an AR guy), I picked it up today and dropped it off with a much more AK skilled gunsmith who obviously know his AK stuff (this guy even builds them from the ground up with flats). The verdict was exactly as I had suspected. Without me even saying anything, he took it in the back, ran some dummy rounds through it, stripped it, and came back 10 mins later telling me what I feared. The bolt is sloppy. It seems I recieved a "vodka special" where both the bolt AND the carrier were at the loosest end of the tolerances.

This is how my rifle works: The carrier is tight to the reciever, but has loose fit for the bolt. The bolt is slightly undersized so it has loose fit in the carrier. So upon cycling, the bolt shimmy's over enough that the ejector edge sometimes doesn't even contact the rim base, causing the ejector to rub against the side of the rim (thus why I had deep cuts in the rim bases. This was often not enough to throw the case, and instead it would stay, or drop into the reciever, causing a jam. My rifle got progressively worse because (as he explained), the more this happened, the more it shaved the edge off the ejector tip, and he was right.. it did.

The gunsmith explained it, and added, the .223 is the least ideal round for the AK action. 1), it is at the LEAST end of tolerances for ejection (thus my issue), as the loose tolerances allow for both a huge contact area on rim for the larger cases (x39 and even the 5.45) and when casings are downsized to .223, you are left with BARELY enough ejector to hit the rim, and 2) the .223 is not a tapered cartridge (as x39 and 5.45 is), thus also lessening the AK's inherent ability for robust extraction. The 223 is harder to extract, no doubt about it.

Don't get me wrong... the AK in .223 WORKS. However... you will NEVER have the extra measures that is inherent in the AK larger calibers. Everything has to be tighter tolerance with with .223. So when you wind up with an out of spec version, like mine, it's a FAIL.

 

So... how to fix? Well there are 2 options. 1) try a new bolt (but with my loose (internal) carrier, that's not too much help, not to mention the possible head spacing headaches). or 2) Add some meat to the ejector adge/tip (which is what he is going to do). This will cause the ejector to contact the more of the rim. On the other hand, it will also force the bolt to continue shimmying to the side (as it has been). Not an ideal action, but the lessor of the evils here. So option 2 is what I chose (and he also recomended).

I learned a lesson with this project. The 223 CAN work 100% in an AK... but it will never have the redundant reliability specs built in, as the 223 is maxing out those specs. Knowing this now, I'd spend a little extra for a larger rimmed cartridge version (x39, 5.45, .308).

 

Just thought I'd share my malfunction issue with others in case anyone is experiencing the same thing.

Happy shooting!

-Brian

 

What is the frequency of your FTE issues? I have two .223's and want to know. I hace had one FTE with one of them. I only have about 50 rnds through this one. I have been using American Eagle brass case.

 

Any comments?

[mancat 2,368]

I will say it again.. You can use a 5.45 bolt in the Saiga .223, even if just for testing purposes. If you know someone with an AK-74, and have a 5.56 NO-GO gauge, feel free to give it a try. Borrow their carrier/bolt and see if that eliminates your issues.

 

I know you know this but I have to say it again.. Do not shoot it without checking headspace. Anyone that tells you an AK doesn't need to be headspaced is full of shit and will own an eye patch in the future.

 

Also check carrier fitment with your bolt. Any AK-74 carrier will work. If the carrier still has the sear trip ramp, you can even mod it to work with your BHO by squaring the ramp until it matches the Saiga carrier.

 

I compared .223 and '74 5.45 bolts for you and found that the extractors are almost completely identical. This means you should be able to source a replacement extractor without trouble.

Edited August 13, 2012 by mancat

[mancat 2,368]

What is the frequency of your FTE issues? I have two .223's and want to know. I hace had one FTE with one of them. I only have about 50 rnds through this one. I have been using American Eagle brass case.

 

Any comments?

 

Only FTE I have ever had with mine was with the infamous Tulammo/Herter's .223, which is pretty well known for chamber jamming in all sorts of .223/5.56 rifles, not just AKs. QC is so bad on these that I can usually expect several rounds in every box to jam up like this. You can see the out of spec necks on the cases with your bare eyes.

Edited August 13, 2012 by mancat

[Brian M1 50]

A long time ago, I posted an issue with my 223's failure to eject issues (can't find the thread, so here's a new one). After it spending almost a month with a well known gunsmith who couldn't resolve it (obviously an AR guy), I picked it up today and dropped it off with a much more AK skilled gunsmith who obviously know his AK stuff (this guy even builds them from the ground up with flats). The verdict was exactly as I had suspected. Without me even saying anything, he took it in the back, ran some dummy rounds through it, stripped it, and came back 10 mins later telling me what I feared. The bolt is sloppy. It seems I recieved a "vodka special" where both the bolt AND the carrier were at the loosest end of the tolerances.

This is how my rifle works: The carrier is tight to the reciever, but has loose fit for the bolt. The bolt is slightly undersized so it has loose fit in the carrier. So upon cycling, the bolt shimmy's over enough that the ejector edge sometimes doesn't even contact the rim base, causing the ejector to rub against the side of the rim (thus why I had deep cuts in the rim bases. This was often not enough to throw the case, and instead it would stay, or drop into the reciever, causing a jam. My rifle got progressively worse because (as he explained), the more this happened, the more it shaved the edge off the ejector tip, and he was right.. it did.

The gunsmith explained it, and added, the .223 is the least ideal round for the AK action. 1), it is at the LEAST end of tolerances for ejection (thus my issue), as the loose tolerances allow for both a huge contact area on rim for the larger cases (x39 and even the 5.45) and when casings are downsized to .223, you are left with BARELY enough ejector to hit the rim, and 2) the .223 is not a tapered cartridge (as x39 and 5.45 is), thus also lessening the AK's inherent ability for robust extraction. The 223 is harder to extract, no doubt about it.

Don't get me wrong... the AK in .223 WORKS. However... you will NEVER have the extra measures that is inherent in the AK larger calibers. Everything has to be tighter tolerance with with .223. So when you wind up with an out of spec version, like mine, it's a FAIL.

 

So... how to fix? Well there are 2 options. 1) try a new bolt (but with my loose (internal) carrier, that's not too much help, not to mention the possible head spacing headaches). or 2) Add some meat to the ejector adge/tip (which is what he is going to do). This will cause the ejector to contact the more of the rim. On the other hand, it will also force the bolt to continue shimmying to the side (as it has been). Not an ideal action, but the lessor of the evils here. So option 2 is what I chose (and he also recomended).

I learned a lesson with this project. The 223 CAN work 100% in an AK... but it will never have the redundant reliability specs built in, as the 223 is maxing out those specs. Knowing this now, I'd spend a little extra for a larger rimmed cartridge version (x39, 5.45, .308).

 

Just thought I'd share my malfunction issue with others in case anyone is experiencing the same thing.

Happy shooting!

-Brian

 

What is the frequency of your FTE issues? I have two .223's and want to know. I hace had one FTE with one of them. I only have about 50 rnds through this one. I have been using American Eagle brass case.

 

Any comments?

 

Mine's pretty bad. I'd say (on average) 2 or 3 per 30rd mag. It's gotten worse at an accelorated rate (thus why the smith said commented on how the "edge" was worn and questioned if I had deeply gouged rims, which I did). I have nothing bad to say about Saiga... I just got a lemon. It happens with the best of them. Whether is was a "vodka special", a "monday gun" or a "Fri gun"... it was grossely out of spec (actually within their specs, but the combo of loose carrier AND loose bolt does not work well with .223). I have still not recieved it back for testing yet. but am confident this smith knows his stuff and will get it working (although it will never be as designed).

I'd say, if you have a tightly fitted bolt, you probably have nothing to worry about. However, if you have a loose tolerance version like mine, this is something to look out for.

I have already desided, when I get it back in working order, I'm going to sell it for a 7.62 (I'd never sell it as "non working", I just don't feel that's right for the next owner). It may work 100%, but I'll never trust it (or any .223 Saiga) again due to my experience with it. That happens. Sometimes you just get a lemon that turns you off to a specific product. Such is the case with me. I do know that with 7.62, even if it were "out of spec".. it would STILL work fine, as that "redundant reliability specs" would work. As my smith put it "they get their loaf of bread whether it's at the tight or loose spectrum of the tolerances". I'm with the thinking (now) that a .223/5.56 requires a precision fit (unlike the 7.62). MOST Saiga's will have that... but not ALL (mine being an example). There is not much info on this on the web, which is why I wanted to share it. Many people could have a "loose end of the spectrum" version, like mine, but not shoot it enough to ever know. FWITW, mine took about 400 rounds+ before showing it's "defect". It ran FLAWLESSLY for about 350 rounds and suddenly (as the ejcetor stamping shared off it's edge) became VERY unreliavle (not even able to finish a mag) in the last 100 rounds or so.

My advice to any with a .223 is to shoot the snot out of it (at LEAST 500 rounds minimum) PRIOR to doing to the conversion, so you you know you have one that's tight. Inspect the bolt... if there's ANY play, it's suspect. Once you mod... kiss your warranty good bye.

[liberty -r- death 1,445]

Every manufacture will have an issue with a series of guns once in blue moon. It happens to every line of guns. Sounds like you just got one. Sounds like short metal parts wearing prematurely more than any thing else. We have several 223 saigas in our arsenal with several thousand rounds each and no issues. I would never hesitate to buy more of them. The same thing can happen in 7.62 and has happened. It's not the caliber that is to blame, but poor parts.

[canoecanoe 63]

My advice to any with a .223 is to shoot the snot out of it (at LEAST 500 rounds minimum) PRIOR to doing to the conversion, so you you know you have one that's tight. Inspect the bolt... if there's ANY play, it's suspect. Once you mod... kiss your warranty good bye.

 

Can you describe as to how one knows if their bolt is tight or loose?

[Brian M1 50]

My advice to any with a .223 is to shoot the snot out of it (at LEAST 500 rounds minimum) PRIOR to doing to the conversion, so you you know you have one that's tight. Inspect the bolt... if there's ANY play, it's suspect. Once you mod... kiss your warranty good bye.

 

Can you describe as to how one knows if their bolt is tight or loose?

 

Well... the way the smith showed me was to remove the mag, reach in the magwell and wiggle the bolt. Mine had play. A LOT of play. I've seen youtubes of people dissassembling their Saiga's and the bolt stayed in place. Well, mine almost wanted to slide right out when dissassembled. It was obviously VERY loose. I'm pretty sure mine was a freak of nature and a lemon. I wish I had shot it more PRIOR to the conversion so as to be sure. But... live and learn. Saiga .223's seem to have a VERY solid rep for being reliable and I'm sure MOST are. Knowing what I know now though... I'd check prior to purchase (kind of hard, as some gunshops get all weird about dissassembly of rifles). I'm not sore about it though. I'm sure the smith will get it working again, and I've learned a LOT about AK's, in general, with this project. One thing is for sure... I LOVE their simplicity and will ALWAYS be an AK guy now. In fact, I'm looking to replace my current 223 with a 7.62 (Saiga preffered) or M+M M10-7.62. I've alway's been a "keep it simple stupid" kind of guy and this format rules the roost in that regards. It is simple, reliable, robust, and durable. It is ingenious in it's simplicity. The Saiga's are at the top of the food chain for AK's, so that's what I'll probably end up with again.

[muvef 3]

I really like the .223 round in general. It sucks you got a lemon. Your most likely tired of hearing everyone's saiga .223 success stories, but I have also had good luck. My buddy and I went to the range this weekend. I went through 9 full mags of tula with no issues. My buddy, an AR guy, was amazed. He knows tula is garbage and couldn't believe it would run in any gun like that. I have over 1400 rounds through it. Only 2 FTE's(both with tula). Again, really sorry you got a lemon. I guess I'm just sticking up for the .223 round. Ok, I'm finished rambling on.

[jpg366 2]

A number of options occur to me. Depending on how much tolerance you need to remove....

Plate the bolt shaft and build some thickness there. Turn down and sleeve the bolt. Bore and sleeve the carrier. Counterbore both ends of the carrier and put in some fixed bearings. Taking out slop is not necessarily complex, and might not even adversely affect reliability. Am I on the wrong track here?

[G O B 3,516]

Are you sure you have the right carrier? I think the AK 100 series that Saiga's are based on have a smaller diameter bolt. If that is the case any AK-100 type carrier should work. The other thing that would make lockup sloppy is if the head space is too loose.

[mancat 2,368]

Yeah you should be doing a carrier swap before modding the bolt or trunnion. This has been suggested several times.

 

I guarantee that you can find someone in your area or at the range that would let you swap in their AK-74 or Saiga carrier for testing - either will work.

 

The carrier can be freely swapped without checking/setting headspace. A bolt cannot.

 

PS all three of my AKs and one unbuilt kit all have some slight bolt slop at the locking lugs, with bolt inserted and cam-locked into battery. They all headspace fine. However the bolt tail and bolt rotation in the carrier is tight.

Edited August 21, 2012 by mancat

[Brian M1 50]

Carrier or bolt swap (or both) require possible head spacing. Filling the gap with a sleeve (carrier or bolt) will require serious labor ($$$). Enlarging the exjector was the easiest (and cost effective) way to remedy the "dud" tolerances of my Saiga (reccomended by AK specialist gunsmith too). Don't get me wrong... I LOVE this rifle, but to spend huge $ on mods defeats it's purpose. There comes a point of no return when you just say "F it" and get a new one, rather than work a defective one to death to make it work. I have done extensive research on this and it seems that Saiga .223's are VERY reliable. I just happen to get a "dud". Sucks, but happens.

I'm leaning towards a 7.62x39 version now anyways. I feel the robust nature of the AK design warrants a decent size caliber. IMHO, if I were to do it all over again, I'd reserve the .223/5.56 for a more precision rifle such as an AR (I know, I know. I always rant about AR's... but I do admit they ARE accurate). Saiga's are tops in my book. I'd not hesitate to buy one again (and am actually currently looking for another!).

[mancat 2,368]

Carrier doesn't affect headspace on an AK. A bolt can also be headspaced to the rifle, easier than making custom modifications to the extractor, and in many cases AK bolts of similar origin will headspace OK with no extra work required. I just figured your gunsmith had enough parts of this type laying around to experiment with this gun if he was an AK guy.

 

Other than that, I don't quite understand. Is your gun fixed or not?

 

IMO if you know what the problem is, I would keep it around and fix it. Selling a broken gun isn't always profitable. Just my take on it.

Edited August 27, 2012 by mancat

[jdub23 21]

I know I am new around here but not new to the AK platform. I think it has been mentioned but try swapping the bolt carrier out. Maybe it is the part that is most out of spec.? If that is the problem no reheadspacing is needed.

Edited August 29, 2012 by jdub23

[ironhead7544 35]

Did you try shooting it without a magazine in place? If it ejects normally then the mag might be rubbing somehow on the bolt. Also, does it ever jam on the last shot?

[jsunn 3]

FWIW, both my Saiga .223 carrier/bolt and Bulgarian AK-74 carrier/bolt have a VERY tight fit of the bolt/carrier. There is almost zero slop, even when swapping bolts between the two carriers or vice versa. The Saiga .223 even headspaces properly and runs reliably with the 5.45 bolt, either in the Saiga .223 or Bulgarian AK-74 carrier.

 

Hey mancat - this is good info. Since it sounds like you have a Saiga .223 bolt and a bulgy AK74 5.45 bolt readily available for comparison, would you mind posting some measurements of the two (differences in overall length, stem size, lugs etc) or possibly even a pic or two of them both side by side for comparison? I think it would help answer many questions about compatibility between the two in general, even beyond this thread. Thanks in advance - (and sorry for the OP for the thread hijack)

Edited September 2, 2012 by j_sunn

[mancat 2,368]

Sure, would be happy to some time tomorrow.

 

Just FYI.. A lot of custom 5.56 AKs have been built using 5.45 trunnions and bolts, with 5.56 barrel. The two are close enough in dimension that the 5.45 bolt will work reliably, though the 5.56 bolt is too small to work with 5.45.

[Brian M1 50]

I have not yet gotten my Saiga back. This gunsmith has a very long wait time (as most good ones do). I'll definitely post an update when I get it back and let you know if the "added beef" on the ejector was a viable solution or not. It's probably going to be another 3 wks or so before he even get's to it. I'm in no hurry, as the thing was worthless (as it was, it wouldn't function anyway) as it was anyway. Hopefully it will be resolved soon.

[jsunn 3]

Sure, would be happy to some time tomorrow.

 

Just FYI.. A lot of custom 5.56 AKs have been built using 5.45 trunnions and bolts, with 5.56 barrel. The two are close enough in dimension that the 5.45 bolt will work reliably, though the 5.56 bolt is too small to work with 5.45.

mancat-

Thanks in advance for the measurements/pics, I'd like to use them to determine if I can swap a Saiga bolt into an AK74 bolt carrier + trunnion for a 5.56 build of my own. - I've heard of inconsistent results with ejection/extraction when using the 5.45 bolt with 5.56 cartridges due to the 5.45 bolt not holding the case rim tight enough (sloppy fit).

 

Brian M1

I'm thinking you can use this bolt from K-VAR if all else fails, which seems to be a direct replacement for the Saiga 223 bolt, albeit a bit expensive:

http://www.k-var.com/shop/AK-557R.html

[mancat 2,368]

OK I took some measurements for you with digital caliper. The overall bolt dimensions of the lugs, stem/tail, extractor, etc. are identical between Saiga .223 and Bulgarian 5.45 AK-74 bolts. Dimensionally, the only notable differences are:

 

Overall length:

5.56: 88mm

5.45: 87.3mm

(5.56 bolt tail is slightly longer)

 

Rim face inner cavity diameter:

5.56: 9.7mm

5.45: 10.1mm

 

5.56 and 5.45 bolts side by side (5.45 on left, 5.56 right):

 

5.56 snap-caps being held by 5.56 and 5.45 bolts. Note both snap-caps exhibit equal "droop". (5.56 on left, 5.45 right):

 

Saiga .223 bolt fully locked into 5.45 trunnion, in battery:

 

NOTE below: to illustrate cross-compatibility, 5.45 bolt is shown in Saiga/AK-100 carrier, with 5.56 bolt shown in AK-74 carrier:

Bolt in battery:

 

Bolt out of battery (top carrier is resting at slightly different angle, so it appears that the bolt is loose - it's not):

Edited September 5, 2012 by mancat

[jsunn 3]

OK I took some measurements for you with digital caliper. The overall bolt dimensions of the lugs, stem/tail, extractor, etc. are identical between Saiga .223 and Bulgarian 5.45 AK-74 bolts. Dimensionally, the only notable differences are:

 

Overall length:

5.56: 88mm

5.45: 87.3mm

(5.56 bolt tail is slightly longer)

 

Rim face inner cavity diameter:

5.56: 9.7mm

5.45: 10.1mm

 

5.56 and 5.45 bolts side by side (5.45 on left, 5.56 right):

 

5.56 snap-caps being held by 5.56 and 5.45 bolts. Note both snap-caps exhibit equal "droop". (5.56 on left, 5.45 right):

 

Saiga .223 bolt fully locked into 5.45 trunnion, in battery:

 

NOTE below: to illustrate cross-compatibility, 5.45 bolt is shown in Saiga/AK-100 carrier, with 5.56 bolt shown in AK-74 carrier:

Bolt in battery:

 

Bolt out of battery (top carrier is resting at slightly different angle, so it appears that the bolt is loose - it's not):

 

mancat -

This is excellent information - not only for Brian M1 - but for anyone looking to perform an AK conversion from 5.45 to 5.56 on their own builds. I can't say thanks enough bud! I appreciate you taking the time to take measurements and help us out!

 

-J

[liberty -r- death 1,445]

Please consider selling it to one of us in "as is" condition. There are enough guys here that can fix it and you would save money on the smith. Plus have some cash to get the 7.62 you now want. You'd be money ahead not to mention time.

[mancat 2,368]

No problem j_sunn.. I won't take the thread off-topic any more, but just wanted to mention that I do plan to build another 5.56 rifle from the AK-74 parts kit. I'll be sure to let you know when I start on it, but that could be months from now. Don't have a barrel or receiver yet. The plan is to do an AK-102 style build.

Edited September 5, 2012 by mancat