Just completed my first build... Any thoughts?

[Deadeye 325]

not shure y the link dont work it does when I click on it you could pm pauly or I will try again

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

DistalRadius - Yes, there is a recoil pad under there... The most effective recoil pads (actually, the only recoil pads)

for really heavy recoil, in my experience, are the LimbSavers, and their OEM versions (like the Remington R3).

I have been using those for a few years and wanted to continue doing so with this Saiga but the ACE Hammer

buttstock uses a pad that is rectangular, rounded on top, and the LimbSavers are elongated ovoids. Since it

wouldn't fit properly anyway, I used one I already had on hand that looked kind of ugly from having some cleaning

chemicals deface it. Using the rubber electrical tape would assure a good bond between the two and once I

complete the functional aspects of the build, then I would focus on the aesthetics, finding a more permanent solution,

if possible. As is, it does detract from the overall eye appeal of the firearm and I am aware of that... is like I was

the consort to a really beautiful, attractive, mate and we were attached to each other with rubber tape...

(Come now... Stay focused... Pay attention... We are talking about a shotgun... Get your mind out of the gutter!

 

DeadEye - I had the same issue with one my own links... but it resolved when I tried again later. Would you,

please send me full URL of the link but as copy-and-paste text only (edit the properties so it's not a link - in blue-

anymore, just text )? Thanks.

[Eric Pate 478]

I like the Limbsavers too. I run one on an ACE folder. They seem to have more give than other pads.

 

FYI, if you need to trim down a Limbsaver it can be put in the freezer for a few hours then sanded.

[Shankspony 40]

I like the Limbsavers too. I run one on an ACE folder. They seem to have more give than other pads.

 

FYI, if you need to trim down a Limbsaver it can be put in the freezer for a few hours then sanded.

 

I wouldn't have thought about that... cookie dough, brisket/meat, and Jello, yes... rubber, no. Thank you!

[6500rpm 670]

A pictures worth a thousand words

[Deadeye 325]

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?app=members&module=messaging&section=view&do=showConversation&topicID=122331

[Deadeye 325]

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/71772-how-to-install-pin-a-heavy-duty-op-rod-or-ak-piston/

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

DistalRadius - Yes, there IS a recoil pad under there... The only recoil pads I have found to be any good for recoil exceeding

60 ft/lbs are the LimbSavers and their OEM versions (Remington's R3 and Winchester's). However, my local sources only

had the small and medium sizes in stock and not the large. The buttstock I am using is the heaviest duty one I could find: the

ACE Hammer, and it uses a rectangular butt plate that's rounded on top - definitely not a standard profile. I opted for using

one I already had on hand which had been defaced by some cleaning solvent I had used before but, although ugly, was fully

functional. Because it was meant to be temporary fix, I used rubber tape to 1) make sure it would stay put, and 2) hide one

kind of ugly with another... Because I will only use LimbSavers, when the time comes, I will then try to get a more aesthetic

finish without ANY tape. I will consult with the folks at SVL about options. I have some 'enhancements' under way. I will post

with more info. Thanks

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

Sorry... post 39 is basically a repeat of post 32... for some reason posts 32 through 38 wouldn't display so I thought the machine

had 'eaten' 32. Now, after posting 39, all the others are back. BTW, I am working on some additional enhancements over the next

couple of days and will post the information (yes, pictures too - don't want to have MisterT and the A-team show up at my house!)

 

For those of you that want a heads-up preview, this is what I am working on:

 

- Installation of a JTE Performance Guide Rod

 

- Testing of a DPH Gas Plug for reducing gas flow with heavy loads

 

- Installation of a Tom Cole Heavy Duty Op rod

 

- Discontinuation of use of the Guard (cover - Item 30 on the parts list) and the recoil buffer

 

- Testing of a low-profile rear scope mount (UTG 978) with an EER 2-7X Leatherwood scope

 

And, after all that, a slug-testing party at 100 yards... (made possible with generous help from SportsCreme, Capzasin-HP,

a dual channel TENS unit, and a possible guest appearance either by Ron Matusalem, or his highfalutin nemesis, Ibu Profen)

 

 

As always, I welcome pertinent and respectful, comments, suggestions, and questions.

 

Oooh... speak of the Devil... Ron just showed up, and brought his friend Coca Cola with him, and they want to start rehearsing

to prepare for that slug fest I just mentioned. Don't want to keep them waiting... Bye!

[us_dragunov 11]

More info on the custom slugs and brass would be appreciated. What kind of pressure are you seeing from those?

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

us_dragunov - I'm assuming you read posts #8 and # 23... First, I go into some detail about the slugs and the brass

there on those two posts and there are pictures too. I'll be more than glad to answer any additional questions you

may have that is not already answered there. Just post your specific questions and I'll reply right here so others that

may be interested also have access. As far as the pressure, some background is in order. I first started to develop

these loads for a single-shot rifled-barrel shotgun. Knowing that shotguns are designed for MUCH lower pressures

than rifles, I developed the loads slowly, carefully, factoring in as many variables as I could control. Ordered the

brass from Rocky Mountain (http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/rmc home_htm_files/RMC Price List.pdf)

because their shells were machined from solid brass as opposed to how those other less expensive Brazilian shells

are made. Machined to my specs meant to me a better product and because I intended to push these to the limit of

the margins, their higher cost was a lesser factor than my safety, the safety of others that might be nearby, the safety

and longevity of the firearm, and finally, the accuracy potential - in that order. I measured my chamber for actual

diameter, and length to the start of the rifling; the shorter the distance of freebore the projectile has to travel before

engaging the rifling, the likelier better accuracy (I load for rifle to .001" shy of the lands) and I also specified the

type of primer I wanted to use (Some are made assuming you only want to use pistol primers - I didn't). You can

also specify the headstamp you want (Mike's Saiga... how's that for a headstamp ego trip) if you have them made to

custom specs to match a particular firearm. I read up everything I could get my hands on about the early brass shells

used in the Old West for blackpowder, about the shells used for the 'elephant guns' used in African big game years

back. I started developing loads using already tested recipes and existing projectiles (http://www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi/articleindex/articles/slugs_dgs_about/slugs1.htm) and I kept meticulous records. I created a spreadsheet to track

everything, including temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, trajectories, muzzle velocity, calculated muzzle

energy, and even calculated recoil energy (ft/lbs and ms). Monitoring the post-firing case dimensions and

appearance, primer condition, and then identify patterns of pressure vs. accuracy. And, when you think you got it all

where it looks good, then make 15 rounds and send them off to a lab (http://www.hpwhite.com/services/ballistics-testing/) or Western's Powders ballistic testing lab services 1-800-497-1007, ext. 26. or others) so they can tell you actual

SAAMI/CIP numbers. Now, with a new firearm, the Saiga, I have to start from scratch I have been told I am 'anally

retentive' about how I develop loads and, having seen the results of being lackadaisical about it, I prefer the former, in

spite of the negative connotations and potential for moronic humor. Let me know if you have other specific questions.

 

Everybody else - I got the 12X1.25 tap today for the installattion of the Tom Cole Op Rod and already started working

on it. I'll post details and pictures over the weekend.

 

 

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

Follow-up

 

DPH Gas Plug - Removed the original plug and screwed this one in until it bottomed out,
about half way between 1 and 6. Then backed it out a fraction of a turn to 1 and left it
there. It does have small indents on the bottom for each index position so you get both
audible and tactile feedback for confirmation of positive alignment. The indents are,
however, big enough to allow the spring-loaded detente pin to engage so as to prevent,
or at least minimize, the likelihood of an accidental rotation to an undesired position
(See pic gas_plug.jpg attached). My fingers are not enough to depress the pin, so I
have to use some tool or device to do press it if I need to change its position. Once
I finish some of the other mods, I'll go back to the range for testing it with different
shells.

UTG 978 Side Scope Mount - I was very pleasantly surprised by how easy this mount went
on, how well it locked on, easy to unlock and remove, and remarkably well-centered on
the bore centerline. I am able to remove the top cover without removing the mount or
the scope fromn it. I use the Warne QD rings and I really like them. An interesting
development was finding out, when I went to adjust the placement of the scope for proper
sight picture, that, because I have about 8 inches of eye relief at full magnification,
the best location for the scope was NOT on this scope mount I had just bought, but on
the CSS Sight Rail mount I had previously mounted on the original rear sight dovetail
(See pic sight.jpg attached). This new one will, notwithstanding how well I liked it,
will, aparently, now go in a drawer.

JTE Performance Guide Rod - How much do I dislike removing the retaining pin on the
Return Spring Guide?... Let's just say it took all the self-control I was able to
muster to refrain from spouting obscenities while doing it... not that it was so hard
to do, but for some reason THAT pin REALLY rubs me the wrong way. I noticed that the
new guide rod functions more smoothly and is not 'captive' - held in by a lip - in fact,
only when the assembly is compressed while installed is the rod inside the plastic
guide (See pics rod_1.jpg, rod_2.jpg and rod_3.jpg attached). This makes replacing
EITHER spring or the guide doable without messing with that odious retaining pin.
While I was at it, I removed the recoil buffer, and also removed the Guard; other than
keeping children's fingers, or low-flying birds, out of the action, I saw no advantage
to keeping it there. With it off, I don't have to have a snap-cap in the chamber, or
remove the top cover if I want to decock it to release the spring tension on the hammer
while it's stored (See pic no_guard.jpg attached). Those of you more experienced, please,
tell me if I have this wrong, and why.

Tom Cole HD Op Rod - I took careful measurements of several relevant dimensions before
starting disassembly of the original and didn't like what I found. I don't know if this
degree of slop is normal in Saigas, Russian firearms, or just military-design firearms.
The two dimples that locked-in the rod where not aligned with each other front to back;
there was a .030" misalignment so drilling straight through from the center of one
would not come out on the center of the other. The forward face of the bolt carrier was
.005" off square. Because the new Op Rod has to match the installed length of the
original and I wanted to use that face as my datum, I scribed a line to index from when
installing the new one. By the way, the instructions from Pauly's STEELIN' were very
good. He recommends about 200 rpm and my setup slowest speed is about 620 so I used lots
of coolant, slow manual feed, and progressively larger bits to final size. Because the
dimple on one side did not line up right there was still some pressure on the rod so
unscrewing it was a bit difficult at first. As it turned out, though, the hole went
through the screw very close to its end and only two threads were involved. After
removing the rod I blew out the hole and put it back to check the fit and it seemed
like a sloppy Class 1 fit. This meant that the dimples were the only thing keeping
that rod from wiggling all over the place inside the shaft and scoring the walls. It
also meant that the concentricity of the rod with the longitudinal axis of the bolt
carrier was only imaginary unless the rod had been machined after installing on the
carrier (Doesn't seem probable considering the poor fits elsewhere). Now, I did notice
somebody had done some sanding or grinding on the face of the piston end of the new
rod, possibly to remove the little tit left on the center when your facing tool is set
a bit too low, and they had allowed it to hit at an angle, grinding off .005" off one
side. This would prevent full contact with the puc and an off-center load. I thought of
putting contact blue to have both surfaces mate at a high level of even contact but
considering the lack of precision elsewhere, thought this would be overkill without
benefits, thus, I just chucked it up on the lathe and took about .006" off the face to
true it up. The inside threads of the bolt carrier had some damage in the area of the
dimples and the threads needed to be chased prior to installing the new rod (just like
Pauly's instructions said). My local NAPA store could order the 12X1.25 tap needed and
I did. When I got it I started to run it in but discovered that it was bottomming out
before it got to the damaged parts of the threads because it was a regular starting tap
not a bottom tap, which, for the $6.00 it cost was not bad, but it wasn't enough.
To order the correct one I would have to wait another week to get it so, instead, I
chucked up this on the lathe and cut it back about 3/16". Now it could chase the
threads all the way down and, using lots of cutting oil and slow turning by hand, I did.
The next step was to screw in the Op Rod to the precise depth needed to make it the same
overall length as the original. Now, I would drill the Op Rod through the 1/8" hole I
had made before and fit a retaining pin. However, if I just started to drill using a
regular drill bit right off the bat, the tip of the drill bit would hit the Op Rod
somewhere on the threads and the angle might force the bit to start off wrong and maybe
not go straight to reach the hole on the other side. What I wanted to do was start the
hole using an end-mill to cut all the way past the threads and into the solid metal.
This way the hole would start more straight and I could continue it with the drill bit.
My set of TiN-coated (titanium nitride) end mills surely included a 1/8" end mill...
but Nooooo!... The smallest was 3/16"... Now I'll have to order one...

To Be Continued...

Sorry!...

I attached the picturesw but they didn't make it... trying again.

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

Follow-up

 

Tried to buy a 1/8", 4-flute, center-cuting, cobalt, end mill from the local Grainger's place but the four SKU's

I tried were out of stock locally and would have to be ordered, and it would take up to a week to get here...

unless I had it Next-Day-Service ordered (ka-ching!). A local friend that has a machine shop doesn't use

any that small, but another friend, a gunsmith, DID have one... and allowed me to use his milling machine

to do the work myself (his is better than mine). After setup and aligning the work piece on the mill, I cut into

the screw about 1/16" past the minor diameter of the threads, then went in with a new 1/8" cobalt drill in the

collet and, going slowly, using lots of coolant, and hand-feeding, made it all the way through. Cleaned

everyting with non-residue solvent and, while it dried, cut off a piece of 1/8" welding rod shank to use as

my pin. Deburred the lip of the hole, put a small chamfer on the leading end of the 'pin' and drove it in with

a hammer to about 1/32" past the end on the other side. Cut off the hammered end the same and then

peened both ends in. Using a small grinder, evened the surface and blended it in. Again, cleaned it all

thoroughly with the solvent and, when dry, masked off the Op Rod and gave the piece a light coat of rust-

preventing low-gloss black spray paint. Looks ready to go. Reassembled everything back in and cycled

the action several times looking for binding, roughness, clearances, etc. It looked good so now I loaded

a magazine and manually cycled all the shells through and no hiccups. The next test will be with live

ammo. Using higher-powered rounds, I'll be testing for proper function (feeding, cycling, ejection) and

monitoring and documenting the force of back plate impact for the different loads. I will post that report as

soon as it is completed. Below are a couple of pictures of the finished Op Rod installation. Again, I want to

thank Pauly's for the good instructions on their how-to post; I wouldn't have even thought of trying to do this

myself without the clear guidance. Thank you. If anybody has relevant questions, just post.

 

[Deadeye 325]

Looks good I had to weld up 2 small cracks in my bolt carier where the dimples were before Instal of the hd op rod. Seems like that is the week piont of the saiga. It was tight and bottomed out in the carier. Now there is a very slight wiggle between them but they say that is normal.

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

deadeye - This was also my concern. I did measure the depth of the hole and the thread length of both, the original

Op Rod and the Tom Cole replacement, and there was plenty of room so neither did/would bottom out. But even

before that, removing the old one took a lot of effort. Because the dimples were on a sectional axis that was not

perpendicular to the longitudinal axis, drilling straight in from one wouldn't completely line up with the other so after

drilling, some of the dimple on the far side would still be there, impinging on the threads. Fortunately, only the last couple

of threads on the original rod were affected and, once those cleared, it was such sloppy threads the rod just unscrewed

easily from there. Even after chasing the threads in the hole with the tap (I cut off the front to make it a bottom tap),

however, it still took a bit of force to screw the new rod in, past the hole, the remnant of the dimple on the far side, and

to its proper sitting depth. I am not second guessing the Saiga engineers on this, particularly since I am not privy to the

criteria used, but it does seem to me to be a relatively weak point. To the extent this design was originally meant for AK's

it may have been great but, for me, planning to use the highest powered slugs within the safety margins, it does increase

my intention to be extra careful in developing loads. I believe the Tar-Hunt to be a stronger slug gun but it is a bolt action

and I wanted semi-auto... I like the Benelli's but they don't use a detachable magazine and I wanted that... I've heard the

Akdal MKA is better than the Saiga but I don't know anything about them and really don't like the AR look anyway. Maybe after a few hundred rounds, I'll have the carrier assembly Magnaflux'd. In the meantime I'll monitor for cracks, looseness,

and elongation on a regular basis. I intend to order more shells today because I don't have enough on hand to do the

full testing I would like. I also intend to order at least one more magazine, maybe another original 5-round, or an 8 or 12

rounder, but I have not done ANY reading on that yet and I prefer to do that FIRST, and then, if needed, check with you

guys for the remaining unanswered questions ("There is wisdom in the multitude of counselors" when you already have

first built enough of a foundation to discern it apart from conjecture and speculative opinion)

 

 

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

Follow-up

 

After doing a lot of reading about magazines for the 12, I think I can boil it down to only three 'facts' that are

relevant to my needs:

 

1 - Most after-market mags are not compatible/reliable with 3-inch heavy magmun-class loaded shells

2 - Many after-market mags may require some modification(s) to optimize fit and/or function for use as above

3 - Factory mags are the most compatible/reliable, needing least modification for use as above

 

Based on this, I ordered 3 5-round Izhmash mags; one for use as a secondary loaded mag to keep in a pocket,

and two to put away for future spare parts in case they should become unavailable. The choice of 5-round vs.

8-round was made to reduce weight. remain legal in more jurisdictions if I move or travel, and lower prices.

 

I would love to hear from those that believe I have my three 'facts' wrong, their reasons why as it relates to

hunting hogs.

 

Also, I have ordered an assortment, and quantity, of shells from two different vendors to provide me enough

data when I next go for testing the finished build at the range.

 

The only drawback I am aware of is that, because of the current buying frenzy, fulfilling orders and deliveries

are running as much as two weeks behind normal schedules.

 

'Longanimity'... Can you say that? ... I knew you could!

[gunfun 3,931]

DistalRadius -What could I do?...

A little fire oughtta take care of it.

 

Again, just kidding. I'm assuming theres a recoil pad under there? Looks like youre running some kind of AR stock so there should be plenty of recoil pads that will fit it either by attachement via two screws or the slip-on variety.

 

No gun should be subjected to tape, IMHO.

I'd rather temporarily subject the gun to tape than subject mu shoulder to needless pain.

However, just shooting in a couple screws and shaving the butpad ought to be pretty quick.

[gunfun 3,931]

LBB-- I disagree with your conclusion on #1. Sure fire Izzy and AGP seem to make fine mags for 3" at least up to 10 rounds. The two US mags have had a few instances of failures, but most of those were a very long time ago, or a few pop ups from an old bad run of AGPs that sometimes take a while to show.

While the IZZy 8 is likely more durable and superior, I don't doubt for a second that if they were produced and seen here in the same quantities as the others we would see problems with them as well. I have had only 4 magazine related failures, and 3 were on 2 of my Izzy 5s. (One had a dragging follower, and both of them have had the feed clip pop off when dropping the mag.) The other was my SGM 12 slow cycling about 2 times in a day while feeding very heavy 3" and dirty. I was unable to reproduce that problem with the 10s.

 

While I would love to have some IZH 8 rounders, I don't think you need dismiss the SGM or AGP 8s or 10s. From what I have seen their quality is on par with most any other decent magazine. I trust the SGM 12 to reliably lift any shells with a load 1 3/8" oz or less. If my loader would do it, I would light load some 3" shells to that spec with #4 B for an HD load. (mine are old enough to be before the extended hood, so 3" is theoretically less prone to jam. I've never had a hood jam, but I do some times have shells snag on the area that could be called the feed ramp if they are chewed up or deformed.)

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

GunFun - Based on my observations, the shape of the Limbsavers (the small and the medium I have) would be easily cut and

fitted at the top (while frozen...), but at the bottom they taper to a point that leaves nothing to be cut and the edges of the butt

plate would be sticking out. I am not sure that would be enough 'less ugly' than the present ugly. As soon as I have finished

all the function related issues, I intend to devote my attention to the aesthetics, contact Limbsavers for their input on alternative

pads and go from there. Indeed, even with that big brake and the Limbsaver it still will kick hard enough for me to be sore

after a full session at the range but modern chemistry can help with that. As far as the magazine choices go, I ordered three

of the original 5-rounders at what seemed to be a reasonable price, considering the current buying frenzy. That also puts the

Izhmash 8-rounders out of my price range for now. Based on your advice, however, I will order an AGP 10 or 12 if it will indeed

hold and feed heavy shells in 3-inch lengths. There is something else I hope you can help me with... Half the ammo I ordered

came in yesterday and the rest shoulkd be here today. In anticipation, I created a MS Word document with a table where I will

record the range test results. Since not everybody has Word, I thought to post a copy of those results as a .pdf file because

most everyone, PC's, Macs, Android, Linux, etc., can view PDF's. My question is, Do I upload a .pdf file as an attachment to a

post the same way I have for .jpg pictures or is there a better way? If this is considered an off-topic spin off on the thread,

Would you kindly PM me? Thanks. I really appreciate your guidance so far.

[gunfun 3,931]

It's your thread- you define the topic for the most part. I would just upload .pdfs like pictures, but I would rather have a link to a read only google drive spreadsheet document, that way if you make data useful to others, they can copy the document and add to it for their own use. That is a pain with .pdfs. .rtf is also close enough to universal while being editable.

 

AGP only makes mags up to 10. SGM does 12 round sticks.

 

As for limbsaver, they make what they make. Tromix and a couple other builders use their grind to fit pad that is huge and solid core. It is a lot of money, and I think getting the biggest Kick Eez is a nicer pad. I have one, and it is huge. Give me the measurements off of the back of your stock in a sketch by PM and I will see if the pad I have is bigger, and give you the model number to order one. They don't come up often that big for cheap, and retail for $35.

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

GunFun - I had not used .rtf in a long time... Thanks. Attached is a sample that I want to check for formatting when posted.

 

Everybody - The attached test report is a blank form that I am uploading as a sample ONLY to test for formatting. I already know there is no data in it. When I do the actual test I will post it (with the data) and provide details here. Please feel free to opine on possible improvements.

Slugs Test.rtf

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

The test of the slugs was done and the report has been posted under the topic "Slug Test" off the Saiga-12 subforum

(the same parent forum as for this one). It was posted as a new topic because it diverges from the main subject of this

one

 

I have also started another topic about 'fitting' the custom brass shells I had for my single-shot slug gun to my new Saiga.

It too would have been off-topic here.

 

Soon, I hope to start developing custom heavy slug loads for the Saiga using the brass shells and, when I do, I'll start a

new topic there too.

 

Any questions, comments, or whatever... please PM me or post on one of the other those topics since I will not be actively

monitoring this thread on a regular basis.

 

Thanks everybody!

Edited January 20, 2013 by LoudBoomBoom

[filthygovemploye 64]

Sorry... when I see a wall of text, i just kept scrolling hoping to see a photo... when there isn't a photo after all that scrolling...

or tit picks, if they arent there i just click next!!!!

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

filthygovemploye - I am sorry it never entered my mind to take and attach a picture of 'tits' as a reading and comprehension aid... having said that, however, and in an effort to properly motivate you, I'll ask one of my neighbors if he will allow me to photograph the udder of one of his cows, or do you prefer goats? Do be aware that I have since attached quite a number of pictures to my posts, just not any 'tits'

[Nephilim7 107]

^^^^ LOL. Nice response!