james lambert 3,059 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 This will be a side-by-side photographic and functional comparison of a complete Tooth and Nail built MKA-1919 and a complete Firebird built MKA-1919. In this post I will compare the machine work performed on a stock MKA lower receiver in order to accept both buttstock and pistol grip adapters. Just for information, Tooth and Nail originally told their customers to cut the buttstock off at .600", Firebird had recommended to never cut this less than .900" so the receiver could maintain structural integrity. But we found on this example Tooth and Nail has cut this receiver to .900". Tooth and Nail Armory has posted a video showing how they make their cuts on the buttstock and pistol grip with a bandsaw and a file. Firebird fixtures the receiver in a CNC mill and makes their cuts with CNC precision. The manufacturing processes and results speak for themselves. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
toothandnail 275 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Do you want me to post how many hours we spent fixing one of your alum lowers? Our built gun ran 100% for him, he got your lower his reliability went to 70%. I'm sure if you'd like, He'll be GLAD to tell you about it. We let OUR customers speak for themselves, Do you want me to post ALL the people who call us, because they are FED UP with delays , and promises NEVER kept? The MAIN reason we got started making parts for this gun was, a buddy ordered parts FROM YOU for him and us , after OVER 3 months WITHOUT a word, we told him we would make our own and have them finished BEFORE yours arrived. We DELIVERED OUR FINISHED PARTS TO HIM , one week before yours arrived . OH, and Nice try on the adapters, comparing an OBVIOUSLY used and repainted?? We never shipped any without our logo The Lower ? ? ? , sorry ,nice try again. Just goes to show AGAIN, what kind of operation you run. I'm done with this CRAP Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james lambert 3,059 Posted October 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 This is all factual stuff no bs no changes, We have highly discouraged your customers who have come to us from posting anything. NOTHING in this series of posts will contain anything but honest comparisons with the photos to back them up You should not be scared to see your parts side by side with ours. Lets show both, discuss the pros and cons....and the readers can make their own opinions. Jim PS the adapter came to us in a broken lower, as is just as it is..no logo painted as shown Quote Link to post Share on other sites
toothandnail 275 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 This will be a side-by-side photographic and functional comparison of a complete Tooth and Nail built MKA-1919 and a complete Firebird built MKA-1919. In this post I will compare the machine work performed on a stock MKA lower receiver in order to accept both buttstock and pistol grip adapters. Just for information, Tooth and Nail originally told their customers to cut the buttstock off at .600", Firebird had recommended to never cut this less than .900" so the receiver could maintain structural integrity. But we found on this example Tooth and Nail has cut this receiver to .900". Tooth and Nail Armory has posted a video showing how they make their cuts on the buttstock and pistol grip with a bandsaw and a file. Firebird fixtures the receiver in a CNC mill and makes their cuts with CNC precision. The manufacturing processes and results speak for themselves. IMG_0717.JPG IMG_0719.JPG Figured I better quote this before it gets deleted. Our EXPANDING customer base speaks for it's self, apparently your SHRINKING base, does as well. We are constantly working to IMPROVE our products, don't know about you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james lambert 3,059 Posted October 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Firebird goes to great lengths and great expenditures to manufacture parts that are right the first time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jojo200517 68 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Not that I'm trying to stir the pot, I held one of these MKA 1919's in academy sports and felt dirty afterwords so needless to say I don't own one. I gotta ask the parts that are shown in the "comparison pics" are these not areas that are covered up by the grip and stock that will be attached after the mods? If so what it really looks like doesn't seem like it would matter THAT much, saw cut lines vs polished milled surface. Would be about as useful as an automotive company painting the bottom of your car with the same quality and attention as they do the doors hood and roof. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
toothandnail 275 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Tooth and Nail Armory has posted a video showing how they make their cuts on the buttstock and pistol grip with a bandsaw and a file. IMG_0719.JPG I ain't no genius, Jim'll tell you that , but IF I made bandsaw that would cut an inside curve like the marks shown on that lower, I wouldn't be using it for a $25.00 cut on a poly lower. Jim , just FYI, the saw marks are the OPPOSITE way. 90 degrees to what??? you posted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james lambert 3,059 Posted October 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 I ain't no genius, Jim'll tell you that , but IF I made bandsaw that would cut an inside curve like the marks shown on that lower, I wouldn't be using it for a $25.00 cut on a poly lower. Jim , just FYI, the saw marks are the OPPOSITE way. 90 degrees to what??? you posted. I don't know what you did, or how you did it. The cuts and marks shown are as is from you to the customer, from the customer to me. I just know you posted a video showing how you made your cuts with a band saw. Here it is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
haugpatr 972 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 It is in really poor taste for Firebird to attack a business member on this forum and especially tacky to spam the boards with multiple threads. This series of posts really makes Firebird look bad. I also remember a Firebird employee talking trash on this forum. It reminds me of the douche bags at Alliance Armament. A top notch builder would be too busy to make posts like this on a forum, Firebird obviously has plenty of free time, that is what most people will take away from this thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CalveryDemon 4 Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 (edited) To quote a smart HOG "A top notch builder would be too busy to make posts like this on a forum, Firebird obviously has plenty of free time, that is what most people will take away from this thread." I have products from both companies; all satisfactory except the Firebird lower (has a jacked up bolt / mag release). Build some shit and kill the drama. . Even "IF" you build a superior product, your shooting your damn self in the foot for your lack of tack. Professionalism, GET SOME. Edited October 2, 2013 by CalveryDemon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rebel Katt 6 Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Not that I'm trying to stir the pot, I held one of these MKA 1919's in academy sports and felt dirty afterwords so needless to say I don't own one. I gotta ask the parts that are shown in the "comparison pics" are these not areas that are covered up by the grip and stock that will be attached after the mods? If so what it really looks like doesn't seem like it would matter THAT much, saw cut lines vs polished milled surface. Would be about as useful as an automotive company painting the bottom of your car with the same quality and attention as they do the doors hood and roof. Actually I am really finding this very informative. Especially, as a 20 year machinist/designer, I have years ago placed a high regard on attention to detail in just about every aspect of life, especially on crafted stuff that I buy. So in short, sometimes the work that isn't seen really goes toward the quality of the part. RK 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
turbobuick 3 Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 I too find this very informative!!! I don't see this as an attack but a comparison (side by side) of two different aftermarket manufactures. Let the truth be unraveled and don't be a hater. I still believe you get what you pay for, and I'm willing to pay for quality (I hate paying for something twice) so I like to see and be informed about craftsmanship and quality of materials used. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KIRCH76 12 Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 But as you can tell Jim does not know Matts product so there is no comparison. He tells all the details of his product then when describing matts product "is a knockoff inferior product" that's a joke for a review on 2 products. What's a review: Having details on both products which he does not have so it's not a review it's a bashing... I do think it's about time fb has came out with details on the product they sell with pics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ShadowFire 220 Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 As for the receiver cuts, CNC is nice and all but they are expensive and you really can get your tolerances close enough in this application with a basic vertical mill. As for the look, that's a matter of speeds and feeds. On a mill, CNC or basic, the look can be made with a finishing cut that is shallow and with a slow feed and higher speed. Nothing special, just takes time. As for the CNC job. You missed a spot. You left a burr, not breaking all edges. My instructor would make note of that and deduct from my grade for that. Break all your edges. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james lambert 3,059 Posted October 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 As for the receiver cuts, CNC is nice and all but they are expensive and you really can get your tolerances close enough in this application with a basic vertical mill. As for the look, that's a matter of speeds and feeds. On a mill, CNC or basic, the look can be made with a finishing cut that is shallow and with a slow feed and higher speed. Nothing special, just takes time. As for the CNC job. You missed a spot. You left a burr, not breaking all edges. My instructor would make note of that and deduct from my grade for that. Break all your edges. You are correct! that receiver is right off the mill, has not been deburred or any sharp edges dressed. And yes I remove the bulk of material first with a bandsaw,,,then the program runs a rough cut followed by a finish cut. It is also exactly correct and the same on every part done, first time every time. Jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james lambert 3,059 Posted October 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 The photos and descriptions I have posted have nothing to do with who placed where in any match, its completely irrelevant If people did well in a match, thats great! What gear they used means nothing to me, a good shooter will do well with any brand equipment. This was all about showing parts side by side with an honest description of each to the best degree possible. Who originally designed the parts is also irrevelant at this point, but it was mentioned. The gun and parts I used are logged into my books, and would also appear in the T&N books as well, so the origin can be tracked. I invite any owner of T&N parts that vary in any way from the pics I posted, to post your own pics. Please show me any inconsistancy with what I have shown. I know there is an engineering company in Colorado that has done studies on many firearms and components for many companies in the firearms industry. They are Professonal Engineers with the ability to test and evaluate designs,stress analysis as well as metalurgy and manufacturing processes. I would be happy to pay for one half the cost to have both guns and all the parts evaluated by that company, as their findings would be beyond Reproach. I am NOT bashing anyone, nor am I attacking anyone I am only showing products side by side. Any reader may simply discount any thing I have said about the parts from both companies, and just compare the pics, they are what the are, and they speak for themselves. If you are a reader who is happy to see both sets of parts side by side, thats great. If you are a reader who is upset at seeing both sets of parts side by side, thats fine as well. This whole thing can be seen for what it was intended, or you may twist it or call it whatever you like, you may defame me or call me any name you like. The representations were honest and I stand by what I have shown. Jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
toothandnail 275 Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 I see nothing wrong with a side by side comparison. That is fair. What is not fair is a competing company taking parts off a gun that has been used to what extent I do not know (abnormal wear marks on several parts). Then comparing their new or used parts to the competition. It is a completely biased comparison. I am not calling anyone a liar but anyone can see that results can easily be swayed in your favor if you are the one doing the comparison. This is not a biased comparison. An individual on a different forum posted this up. Found it a few weeks ago. I have linked to page 4 where he does a comparison. Read the whole thread if you wish. http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/threads/360210-MKA-1919-Shotgun/page4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AR-12 Shotgun 16 Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 I agree. Let the people decide and businesses shut up and pump out parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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