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Its not official yet, but 5.45x39 surplus is in danger.

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Classic just sent me a panic-o-gram saying they had some in stock "for the last time"... Sooo... better get some?

 

edit: That offically makes 5.45 easier to get than .22LR....  Don't sweat it guys! You'll still be able to get ammo somewhere.

Unfortunately, I don't yet have a 5.45, but this e-mail from Classic pissed me off.  Like I'm sure many are...  I'm fuckin tired of the panic bull shit.

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7N6 from Classic is .27 (.25 for two tins) a round to the door for me.  SGA has Wolf .26, Red Army .27 and Golden Tiger .31 a round to the door.  The cheap surplus sure isn't cheap anymore. 
 

Hopefully 5.45 ammo will still be around even if the surplus is banned.  Glad I picked up 4 crates back when it was .13 a round.

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I'm not so sure I like this statement by the NRA.....

"We encourage you to contact your representatives in Congress and ask them to urge BATFE to reconsider its classification of 7N6 as armor piercing ammunition or to grant 7N6 a “sporting purposes” exemption, as it has been imported and safely used for lawful purposes for many years."

 

If ATF tries to weasel their way out of this one by granting an "exemption", we need to keep fighting. That's not good enough. If ATF offers an exemption, it's because they know that they will lose the fight in Federal court. The AP ammo statute was never intended to be used to reclassify rifle ammo as pistol ammo. ATF has gotten away with it in the past because there has never been much of a movement to fight back. This 7n6 ban will be different. ATF is clearly exceeding their statutory authority.

 

"Let me make clear what this bill does not do. Our legislation would not limit the availability of standard rifle ammunition with armor-piercing capability. We recognize that soft body armor is not intended to stop high-powered rifle cartridges. Time and again, Congressman Biaggi and I have stressed that only bullets capable of penetrating body armor and designed to be fired from a handgun would be banned; rifle ammunition would not be covered. To further clarify this intent in our legislation, both Congressman Biaggi and I would favor an amendment explicitly to exclude rifle ammunition." - Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan"
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/104790NCJRS.pdf (1984)
"An agency's power is no greater than that delegated to it by Congress." - Lyng v. Payne

 

Lawmakers NEVER intended on ATF classifying rifle ammo as pistol ammo, just because some guy builds a handgun that shoots rifle ammo.
Even if 7n6 is not banned, the AP statute needs to be revised. If it's not, ATF will always take advantage of the vagueness of the law, in order to push through their agenda....

Edited by varickm
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Still no word on who what when where or why.

 

An importer was denied an importation of russian ammunition. Has anybody tried since then?

 

Prices are very high now. Still billions of rounds of surplus that can be imported.

 

Same shit different day.

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When they classified 308 as pistol ammo, yeah right, and got away with it is there anything that cant be so classed?

Nope.

Come on a 308 pistol is about as useful as a brick. But the NRA let it go, why I dont have any idea.

Leave it to the weenie mobile and the ATF will gut our ammo supplies. 

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The NRA let many things get by. Much like the laws forbidding carrying a pistol, maybe the time has come to correct this problem.

 

The AP pistol ammo law is getting to be a very real problem, something can be done with a simple correction to remove rifle ammo, by clarifying what is a pistol or handgun for that section of the law.

 

It should only count magazine fed pistols, that fully enclose the magazines within the grip. It should only count simple blowback actions.

 

This would keep the net exactly as wide as it was originally intended. Feel free to send the above idea to the NRA, GOA or any other group.

This is very winnable in the above format, it does not require sweeping changes or special exemptions.. It just corrects the technical aspect of the law. 

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Unlikely - it would be more likely, if they were to be reclassified, that they would be AOWs.

And frankly, under a consistent interpretation of the NFA, they probably should have been originally. They are not held or intended to be fired with one hand, even remotely - the presence of a front handguard blows that notion out of the water. Even though handguns in general are not typically fired with one hand, it remains part of the legal definition.

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.

 

It should only count magazine fed pistols, that fully enclose the magazines within the grip. It should only count simple blowback actions.

 

 

 

Most pistols are NOT simple blowback actions. Due to high pressures most pistols use some sort of locking mechanism, only low powered rounds like .22LR, .25 ACP, .32 ACP, . 380 and 9x18 Mak use simple blowback. Your argument falls apart right there then.  I do however agree with you that this ban is arbitrary, opportunistic and just plain sucks. 

Edited by Saigaczech

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There is no way to make a distinction that holds up against bureaucratic stupidity.

 

Just remove the power completely, no other way never has been.

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Still no word on who what when where or why.

 

An importer was denied an importation of russian ammunition. Has anybody tried since then?

 

Prices are very high now. Still billions of rounds of surplus that can be imported.

 

Same shit different day.

 

Hows this?

 

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition.html

 

TEST, EXAMINATION AND CLASSIFICATION OF 7N6 5.45X39 AMMUNITION  

 

On March 5, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) received a  request from the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency (CBP) to conduct a test, examination and classification of Russian-made 7N6 5.45x39 ammunition for purposes of determining whether it is considered  “armor piercing ammunition” as defined by the Gun Control Act (GCA), as amended. Since 1986, the GCA has prohibited the importation of armor piercing ammunition unless it is destined for government use or testing.  The imported ammunition about which CBP was inquiring was not destined for either excepted purpose.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), as amended, defines the term “armor piercing ammunition” as:

“(i)      a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii)        a  full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.”  (emphasis added)  

When ATF tested the 7N6 samples provided by CBP, they were found to contain a steel core.  ATF’s analysis also concluded that the ammunition could be used in a commercially available handgun, the Fabryka Bronie Radom, Model Onyks 89S, 5.45x39 caliber semi-automatic pistol, which was approved for importation into the United States in November 2011.  Accordingly, the ammunition is “armor piercing” under the section 921(a)(17)(B)(i) and is therefore not importable.  ATF’s determination applies only to the Russian-made 7N6 ammunition analyzed, not to all 5.45x39 ammunition.  Ammunition of that caliber using projectiles without a steel core would have to be independently examined to determine their importability.

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I'm sure the same ATF that doesn't have to cooperate with congress when they smuggle guns that result in officers murders are going to jump right on answering to guns.com

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Still no word on who what when where or why.

 

An importer was denied an importation of russian ammunition. Has anybody tried since then?

 

Prices are very high now. Still billions of rounds of surplus that can be imported.

 

Same shit different day.

 

Hows this?

 

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition.html

 

TEST, EXAMINATION AND CLASSIFICATION OF 7N6 5.45X39 AMMUNITION  

 

When ATF tested the 7N6 samples provided by CBP, they were found to contain a steel core.  ATF’s analysis also concluded that the ammunition could be used in a commercially available handgun, the Fabryka Bronie Radom, Model Onyks 89S, 5.45x39 caliber semi-automatic pistol, which was approved for importation into the United States in November 2011.  Accordingly, the ammunition is “armor piercing” under the section 921(a)(17)(cool.png(i) and is therefore not importable.  ATF’s determination applies only to the Russian-made 7N6 ammunition analyzed, not to all 5.45x39 ammunition.  Ammunition of that caliber using projectiles without a steel core would have to be independently examined to determine their importability.

 

 

In other words, an importer for Radom submitted a 5.45x39 pistol to the ATF. A pistol that is not actually being imported by anyone or currently sold in the US, mind you - so I'm not sure how ATF can call something "commercially available" when nobody has ever made it available for sale.

 

By the way, guess who is the only importer for Radom-made AKs?  None other than the geniuses at I.O. Inc.

Edited by mancat

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Most pistols are NOT simple blowback actions. Due to high pressures most pistols use some sort of locking mechanism, only low powered rounds like .22LR, .25 ACP, .32 ACP, . 380 and 9x18 Mak use simple blowback. Your argument falls apart right there then.  I do however agree with you that this ban is arbitrary, opportunistic and just plain sucks. 

 

 

Most pistols don't fire 5.45x39, just one submitted did. The idea is to remove firearms like the draco from being used to make rulings on ammo. Only traditional pistols can be used for reference.

 

Laws often have a section to clarify the intended target of the law.. So let me clarify what I mean.

 

For section 921(a)(17)(cool.png(i) "hand gun" and "pistol" shall mean: Magazine fed pistols, that fully enclose the magazines within the grip. And use a simple blowback action.

 

 

And while many pistols use a delayed blow back, all common pistol calibers have at least one simple blow back model.

 

However there is no way to stuff a rifle caliber within this correction, since its impossible to build a firearm that meets this standard that is firing rifle ammo.

 

The above will actually fix the law. Just try to get it to happen.

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This is bullshit plain and simple. The ATF has not the authority to ban any ammo. Notice they approved a "pistol" that has never been imported that uses this round and then ban the ammo 2 years later. Valarie Jarret back door gun control. This was planned. Barry is too stupid to have thought this one out. Real AP ammo like M855 and M1 Garand AP is exempt and a real pistol round that does not have a steel core but lead that IS body armor piercing 7.62x25 was not even looked at.

ATF also released this the day after Eforms went offline. I would not doubt that soon ATF will disallow and SBR's/suppressors/AOW etc. It is a tax agency totally out of control acting beyond the scope of their authority. Just like the gestapo began and expanded.The assault on 2A rights is going fullspeed ahead and we will be lucky if you can even own a gun in 10 years. Ultimately, this will end bad and the real reason for the 2A will be utilized and those enforcing these unconstitutional edicts will be held accountable and I think that is why they want you disarmed. Nicolae Ceausescu and his old lady and Benito Mussolini comes to mind.

Edited by JAG
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ATF obviously went searching for an AK pistol that wasn't just made in some guy's garage. They know that they have a weak case. If they felt like they had a strong argument, they wouldn't have picked a Polish pistol that was approved for import in 2011 and never sold in the US.....Commercial production changes nothing. 7n6 was designed as rifle ammo.

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The pistol was likely not sold for exactly this reason.

Unless the company just put in an order to import a bunch of them recently.

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The pistol was likely not sold for exactly this reason.

Unless the company just put in an order to import a bunch of them recently.

Exactly. The whole "5.45 pistol" issue was a well known reputation killer. The timing was probably because Gil Kerlikowske just became head of CBP a month ago. He's a serious anti-gun POS.....http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2183675/posts......

 

According to ATF's advisory...."(ATF) received a  request from the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency (CBP) to conduct a test, examination and classification of Russian-made 7N6 5.45x39 ammunition for purposes of determining whether it is considered  “armor piercing ammunition” as defined by the Gun Control Act (GCA), as amended."

Edited by varickm

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I don't agree with the opinion that the 5.45 is superior to the 7.62.  I think both cartridges have their strengths.

 

 

Edited by Darth Saigus
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^^THIS^^ - within 300m, I will go with more mass any day.  But, it's almost a "9mm vs .45 ACP" argument.

 

I also disagree that corrosive ammo is anything to worry about.  You just have to clean using that deadly water

substance and puppy killing Dawn detergent to neutralize the salts in the priming compound..

 

Oil, Break Free, WD-40 and Hoppes #9 are MUCH safer and environmentally friendly!

what.gif grimace.gif

 

Macbeau sends...

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