Reloading

[Dogster 577]

I haven't reloaded in over 25 years, but with current prices and frequent "panics", I'm thinking I should re-enter doing so. With that in mind, I'd like to get your opinions on what equipment I should start looking for. "Back in the day" I had an RCBS Rockchucker outfit, effective, but slow. I understand there is a learning curve to progressives, but is it really all that different? Please be as specific as possible on the brands, models, etc., as I am really not all that familiar with what is currently available out there. Pricing info would be helpful as well. I will need multiple rifle and pistol calibers. Your assistance and advice is greatly appreciated. Keep in mind, I am an old fart as well.

[Spacehog 2,218]

I wish I could help you Dogster, but I am using a RockchuckerIV single myself. I haven't taken the plunge yet into progressives. If no one else chimes in, you may want to send a PM to Indy or Termite. I know they do a lot of reloading, and I believe they both have progressive setups. Good luck.

[james lambert 3,059]

Dillon precision is about the best

RL550b   or RL650

 

 

top of line RL1050

 

PS I load about 60,000 rnd a year

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

I wish I could help you Dogster, but I am using a RockchuckerIV single myself. I haven't taken the plunge yet into progressives. If no one else chimes in, you may want to send a PM to Indy or Termite. I know they do a lot of reloading, and I believe they both have progressive setups. Good luck.

 

Or GunFun...

 

About all I have to say on the topic is that if I were going to start reloading tomorrow I would try to find as complete of a set of "whatever" as possible, used, on CL or Armslist. Seems like the stuff is dirt cheap in lot quantities but kinda spendy if you piece it out. I think a lot of guys get into really deep, then realize they don't have the patience for it and unload their stuff at a huge loss.

[Dogster 577]

I am not dead set on anything. As I said, I used a Rockchucker, and am more familiar with it. I may go back to that just for comfort zone. Whatever I wind up with, I just want it to work well, and hold up. I just recall it was a slow process, and wondered about the progressive units. Judging by the price/availability of powder & primers in this area, for me no more often than I shoot, it may not be worth it. When I do shoot, I will burn through 1-2k in a session though. That is why I asked for input. So be it single stage or progressive, let me know your thoughts, and why.

[gunfun 3,931]

I would suggest not buying a rockchucker. They are quality single stages, but you can have an equally solid and smooth Lee Classic Cast Turret press for less money which is much better.  Your volume of shooting demands at least a turret, and implies a large budget. So you would do well with any of the progressives.

 

Dillon, Hornady, and most of the other full progressives will end up being $1200 or more by the time you set them up. I priced the components, and an XL $650 costs about $120 to add an additional caliber , not counting the plate for the case feeder. Hornady LNL AP is about $70 for the same thing. These numbers are a couple years old and assumed getting the cheaper Lee dies. RCBS cost about the same as hornady.

 

By contrast for probably around $600 total, I have the tooling to do the following full progressive: 9mm, 380, 40 s&W/ 10mm, 45 auto, .38 spl, .357. 223, 308 win, 30-06. If you already have powder measures dies and all that, you can get a Loadmaster, with both case feeders and both shell holders for about $285. I can technically do rifle calibers full progressive, but I trim those every time, so it doesn't make sense. I prime and size shells, kick them out. trim, and then do the rest as progressive for .223. for larger rifle calibers I use it more or less like a turret each time after the deprime/ size stage. 

This setup has a sort of funnel for a case feeder which works surprisingly well, and costs all of $14. It is frustrating to learn to dial in the mechanical case feeder, but once you learn the tricks, it just works. (I wouldn't bother getting the case feeder for the rifle calibers, as it only goes up to brass about the size of .223 and is more of a nuisance than a help. ) Adding each additional caliber costs $30 for the dies, as above, then a $11 turret, maybe a $22 shell plate, maybe a different size priming assembly (there are large and small. Full assembly for either is $25. Once you have both, you are set), same deal for the case feeder $24. There is one set for small pistol calibers, another for large pistol calibers, and the .223 feeder. If I were doing it again, I would only buy the two pistol feeders. You do not need any extra cartridge retainer springs or pins. This is one thing I think is a far better design on the Lee Loadmaster than even the Dillon rigs.

 

For the autopistol rounds, I load fairly consistently 500-600 an hour. I am not rushing. I have gone that speed with revolver brass, but it takes more force and is a little finickier about the over flared cases feeding into my RCBS dies. (over flared intentionally to avoid shaving lead bullets on seating.) I usually go slower for those maybe 3-400/hr. I like to sit kind of diagonal to the press, which gives me a good look at the critical things: primer feeder, powder level in the case, and a straighter reach to place the bullet.

 

For rifle, I like to maximize feel for each round and run them though almost like a turret. I hand feed the cases, using only part of the case feeder. After doing the deprime and size before trim and tumble as described above. Then I feed a case in by hand, and run it through. I place the next case in when the first one has reached the seating stage. Using this method, I am pulling the handle about 4 times per shell, but getting very smooth feel. - One thing presses like Dillon and Hornady do better for this kind of thing is that they prime at the bottom, so you still feel the primer independently of the operations. I would prefer an XL 650 or LNL AP for progressively loading pre trimmed & pocket swaged rifle calibers. I can also make the powder drop a seperate operation if trickling is desired. I have two powder measures, both are lee. One is the one that comes with the press. It is very good for pistol type powders, but not so much for long grain stick powders. It can do about half the range of 308 loads and smaller if you get the double disc kit. I also have the micro disc, which allows very small incremental change in pistol calibers. Varget is a nuisance with this measure, and I will not use it for that. It works very well for CFE 223 in 308.  My other measure is the "perfect" measure. It is a basic rotary measure with rubbery wipes. It does better with stick powders and has a large range of adjustment. I have the kit to make it case activated, which is so-so. I am not sure I would buy the case activate kit again. I might just stick it on the press and choose to cycle it by hand when a case needs charged.

 

It sounds to me like you shoot enough that you will want progressive, and can probably afford whatever you want. I am very happy with my Loadmaster, since I mostly shoot pistol calibers and it works very well for those. It is still faster for rifle calibers than a single stage and many turrets. If I were planning to do mostly rifle calibers and I were you, I might be looking at a Dillon or Hornady rig. If you really have the cash, the Dillon 1050 has a big advantage for military brass rifle calibers. It can deprime and swage the primer pocket in full progressive. Unfortunately it costs a lot, and primes at the top like my press. So you can't really feel the primer seat. From what I have seen, people who have both, seem to prefer the XL650. They are running about the same speed on pre-trimmed & swaged brass and have more feel.

[gunfun 3,931]

p.s. I believe I did the math for just 9mm, and it payed for itself before approximately 3000 rounds versus buying cheap plinker 9mm at retail. If you are doing large orders of primers, your costs go way down. The same is true for bullets and powder. As does the hassle of hunting down components. It will take longer for any press to "pay for itself" if you are buying bullets rather than casting them. I am sure you can work out the math and factor in the value of your time and some mistakes. Another big advantage of large volume component buying is that once you work out a load, you are unlikely to get caught short on a component and have to work up a different load with other components. 

 

It is worth noting that almost every serious competitive shooter is using a dillon 650 or 1050- or has several of them. Many of them get the Lee  auto disc powder measure and factory crimp die to leave on each turret and reduce change over times. Jim Lambert just said he does 60k/ year. I've done around 8000 9mm total. That may inform whose input you value.  I will say that if you are considering a Dillon 550, I think my press is a more capable machine. It doesn't make sense to me to spend that kind of money on a press with as many manual operations. If you want dillon but are concerned about the cost, get the 650 and save up for the case feeder rather than getting a 550. IMO auto indexing is a useful safety feature. More human input required= more chances to make mistakes.

 

p.p.s I have seen the older style 4 hole turret presses sell as cheap as $26 on ebay- less than their single stages. If you still have any of your old dies, you could bid on one of these and the primer feeder kit and be cranking away very cheaply, and far faster than you used to do with your rock chucker. These do not feel as solid and smooth as the new style, but for $26, you could leave one set up in each rifle caliber and just move the primer assembly around.

[HB of CJ 1,263]

Excellent question. We hand loaded in 1966 in High School. Slow old C&H press. Lyman Scale. Used a rock polisher for a tumbler. All of it worked, but production was slow. We did 30.06, (Garands) .45 acp and lead .30 Carbine. High School rifle club.

 

Just recently I re-priced what it would take to start a-new. Dillion 550B, all the other needful cool stuff and enough components to reload about 5000 M1 Carbine rounds.(lead) I have a "Trigger Pak" M2. I stopped adding at $2500 bucks for everything needed.

 

That much $money$ can still buy a shit load of new ammo. Plus that I do not have the time to enjoy hand loading any more. Too much other stuff now comes first. Old age. For the hobby enjoyment, do it. To save money? Maybe not for me. For others? Oh Yeah!

 

Hope this helps kinda maybe. HB of CJ (old coot) All US Code Laws And NFA Rules Apply.

Edited July 12, 2014 by HB of CJ

[YOT 3,743]

Slow is good, for me. I have a Lee Turret press. It's accurate enough unless you intend to get super serious about target bench rest shooting. It does everything I expect at the rate of about 125+/- an hour.

 

https://fsreloading.com/catalogs/lee-precision/how-to-videos.html

 

 

 

 

ETA: Reloading for Rifle is almost as fast, but cases MUST be lubed.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Yeoldetool

[Dogster 577]

Didn't mean to mislead, GunFun. I don't shoot often, so when I do I shoot as much as I can. By no means am I on a large budget! I am twice retired, but with 2 ex wives! As such, I have way more time than I do money LOL. The turrent sounds interesting. I have several rifles and with 1 caliber  exception (5.45x39), a handgun to match them. Good info guys, I knew I was in the right place.

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

I am twice retired, but with 2 ex wives!

 

It sounds like you only need 2 bullets, not reloading equipment?

 

edit: This is, of course, a joke.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Maxwelhse

[patriot 7,197]

If you shoot a lot, like I do with CAS, a DECENT progressive is the way to go. Dillon is top of the line with a LIFETIME warranty that's good as long as the press exists.

[gunfun 3,931]

Didn't mean to mislead, GunFun. I don't shoot often, so when I do I shoot as much as I can. By no means am I on a large budget! I am twice retired, but with 2 ex wives! As such, I have way more time than I do money LOL. The turrent sounds interesting. I have several rifles and with 1 caliber  exception (5.45x39), a handgun to match them. Good info guys, I knew I was in the right place.

 

5.45 is less practical, since components made for it are hard to find, and factory stuff is cheap.

 

It was kinda dumb for me to write that wall of text up there without asking you foundational questions first.

 

1)What are your other calibers, and the volume you intend to shoot them in? 

 

2) what is your max budget?

 

3) how much time do you want to spend? i.e. how much of a priority is efficiency?

 

4) Mostly pistol oriented: would you consider casting? You might want to include a basic casting setup into your budget if pistol is high priority. 

 

5) what is your shooting style? Max precision rifle/ bullseye pistol, hunting, action pistol.... - informs what sort of gear you want. i.e. you might want a fast rig for pistol and volume rifle, and something slower for benchrest shooting and extreme range. - Extreme range precision needn't be fancy or expensive. The guy who does the Sniper 101 series uses the same $20 powder measure I have, a trickler, a good scale, and a basic lee classic cast single stage.

 

I got a lot of my stuff incrementally like this: I got to where I could reload for myself well enough to be confident of safety. Then I let friends use mine under supervision. If they wanted to do a caliber I didn't have the tools for, they would chip in all or most of the additional tooling, and I'd help them to make enough ammo for themselves to exceed the cost of the tooling. Red333 also lent me some stuff, and MSR Diver gave me a huge jump start with the shotgun stuff. So I was doing my first several calibers with less than $450 in gear for about a year. The additional calibers were mostly added by friends or as a serendipitous bargain.

 

Lee bullet molds are very good. If you price pistol bullets, you can see that a 6 cav mold will make bullets which would cost ~$60 to buy in the first hour or two of use. - You won't be going that fast from the very start, but once you get the hang of it you can easily cast 600 good bullets in an hour. Considering that the mold + handles are generally about $55-60... Rifle molds don't generally come in as many cavites, except at a much higher cost. And cast rifle bullets take a lot more work to get good performance out of. 

[termite 463]

I run the RCBS progressive 2000, I think that's what it is, have 2 MEC presses, 1 for 12 gauge, 1 for 410, and 2 RCBS partner presses for small loads and figuring out stuff before I blow off a hand.

 What I've found with the progressive is to do it when you aren't all stressed out, no distractions, and get into a rhythm, shell, prime, bullet, at least that's what I do. It's damn good "quite" time for me. I can change calibers and have the powder drop set in about 10 minutes and be going on another caliber. It's nothing to drop 2-300 rounds in an hour, just taking my time.

 I use the 5th hole on mine for a crime die and this makes things go faster. if you do a lot of calibers, then it'd be best to buy die holders for each set of dies, you'll have to research the shell plates, a lot of them will interchange, and then the star wheel. RCBS has lifetime warranty, I know, I screwed my up in the beginning, even told them I screwed it up, they sent me all new parts and paid the shipping, Dillion is the same way. You may also look at the electronic scales with the powder dump, they are neat as crap for doing a few loads, you can even program your load, call it up later and it'll dump right to the pan, but don't use the electronic scale around ANYTHING that may vibrate or with a fan blowing in the room. 

 My electronic drove me crazy until I figured out that the vibration, that I couldn't even feel, upstairs was keeping it from calibrating, I moved it to the basement and all was well. I thought, No way in hell, but stuck my vibration analyzer to the kitchen counter and other places up stairs, and by God, it was reading a "bad bearing", the basement is concrete floor, with all 3 other walls block back filled with concrete, and it's much less vibration.

 

 Get you some quality calipers, not none of this cheap china crap, Sterret would be best, but I use Brown & Sharpe and Mitutoyo. May also look into a bullet puller die with the collets you need (RCBS) to pull down the UH OH's and save the components.

 If you're going to use the Rockchucker, you could get the electronic scale with the powder dump and go that way, it'll dump a new load, most times before you get the bullet seated, and you can go kind of faster that way.

 For pistol rounds, look at the Lyman "M" neck expander die, someone here mentioned it, I got one to try and they are 1000% better than having the "bell" at the top, when set right. I've bought one for every pistol caliber that I load.

[gunfun 3,931]

That's about what I would suggest for the press I have. Get a die holder (AKA turret) for each caliber and leave it ready to go.

 

I'd rather have a reliable old RCBS scale than the digital one I have. If you use digital, calibrate every time, and often while using. Some are even affected by having different kinds of lights near by.

[gunfun 3,931]

 What I've found with the progressive is to do it when you aren't all stressed out, no distractions, and get into a rhythm, shell, prime, bullet, at least that's what I do. 

 

 

 

I think this goes for any type of reloading. Single stage has a lot of hand operations which would be bad if you duplicate or skip one. A single light or missed charge in a reloading block can be a barrel obstruction. With the progressive, you can sit in such a way that you can see that the primers are feeding, and see inside the case. All you have to do is watch the primers, and powder and place a bullet. You don't have to think about whether you charged this shell already. Just fully cycle the handle every time, and you can't duplicate or skip a step. I like to use factory ammo boxes for the pistol ammo. Every so often I scoop out my loads into a box and run my fingers down the primers. Then I will see and feel any problems before there are a lot of them. I top off the powder every time I top of the primers, which is every hundred rounds. A lamp or LED above the charged shell or a lockout die is a good idea too.

[jdtravers 637]

I haven't reloaded in over 25 years, but with current prices and frequent "panics", I'm thinking I should re-enter doing so. With that in mind, I'd like to get your opinions on what equipment I should start looking for. "Back in the day" I had an RCBS Rockchucker outfit, effective, but slow. I understand there is a learning curve to progressives, but is it really all that different? Please be as specific as possible on the brands, models, etc., as I am really not all that familiar with what is currently available out there. Pricing info would be helpful as well. I will need multiple rifle and pistol calibers. Your assistance and advice is greatly appreciated. Keep in mind, I am an old fart as well.

Take a hard look at the Dillon 550, as it is very cost effective and you can build up multiple tool heads to cover just about every cartridge out there.  I have two of them along with two Dillon 1050's and one of their Dillon Square Deals, which I take with me when I travel, as it is easy to set up in a motel room and load pistol ammunition.

 

For precision Rifle I use the Redding T-7 Turret Press, which is a single stage press, but you can put seven dies in the rotating head.  It is rock fucking solid!!!!!!

 

Really comes down to how much money do you want to spend!!

 

Jack

[termite 463]

 

 What I've found with the progressive is to do it when you aren't all stressed out, no distractions, and get into a rhythm, shell, prime, bullet, at least that's what I do. 

 

 

 

I think this goes for any type of reloading. Single stage has a lot of hand operations which would be bad if you duplicate or skip one. A single light or missed charge in a reloading block can be a barrel obstruction. With the progressive, you can sit in such a way that you can see that the primers are feeding, and see inside the case. All you have to do is watch the primers, and powder and place a bullet. You don't have to think about whether you charged this shell already. Just fully cycle the handle every time, and you can't duplicate or skip a step. I like to use factory ammo boxes for the pistol ammo. Every so often I scoop out my loads into a box and run my fingers down the primers. Then I will see and feel any problems before there are a lot of them. I top off the powder every time I top of the primers, which is every hundred rounds. A lamp or LED above the charged shell or a lockout die is a good idea too.

 

You're correct about checking the primers, on my press, when the "tub" fills with loaded ammo, I empty it, but EVERY shell gets "optically" checked (old ass eye balls) to make sure the primer is there. RCBS makes a die that you can install after the powder dump, that will lock up the press if the charge is wrong, I've got one, but I don't use it anymore, if I did, I wouldn't be able to have my crimp die in the 5th hole, but there again, and knock on wood, I haven't had a problem with no/double charge's, if the handle goes down, the powder gets dropped, the shell before it gets a bullet, and the one before that one gets crimped.

 Reloading is my Valium, for the young ones here, that's what OUR mothers took to be able to put up with OUR shit when we was young, that we slipped out of the bottle and told her that she'd already took her dose, so we could deal with her shit.