poosh507 21 Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 Been looking at saiga shotguns for a while. Looking to do small time competition, mainly a range toy. Saw an s20 and was wondering if they are worth the trouble. Shop also has a vepr 12 in stock. Also wondering about how to make the frenken mags. Thanks for the input. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 You aren't going to get many more chances at a 20. If you are interested, just get it. You can probably get your money back out if you change your mind. Make the mags by clicking here: http://stores.csspecs.com/saiga-20-gauge/ If you are really motivated to do it the hard way, heat welding with a soldering iron is the way to go. Low heat, smooth motions, mix in fiberglass and use additional plastic from your factory stock as weld filler. Massage the plastic slowly with the flattening iron tip to make sure there is complete fusion with no voids. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poosh507 21 Posted May 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 Thank you so much for the quick reply. I think I'm going to pick it up in the next couple of days. And I think css will see some business. Don't think I want to make Franken mags. Could you point me in a good direction for a conversion for an s20? Seems they are more finicky than a 12? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 Yourself CSS and their videos. Someone else, look in the business section, almost all will do the conversion for you 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poosh507 21 Posted May 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 Ok well it looks like I will do it myself. I work at a machine shop. I'm pretty good with tools. Yeah for 700 I'm going to try and pick it up tomorrow. And I will keep you all posted on the conversion process. Probably will have videos and pictures. As a slightly in depth guide. Thanks for the lil push to buy it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 Take it slow and enjoy it. The information here is quite extensive. Picture thread has many ideas as well Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poosh507 21 Posted May 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 Ok sounds good. Thanks for the advice! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lambert58 22 Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 Shoot it first and see what it cycles. then take off gas block and open up holes and add more if necessary. They are awesome shotguns with no recoil and are very accurate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poosh507 21 Posted May 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 Ok,I was going to leave it stock for a few weeks to break it in. Then work on it. Does anyone make drums for the 20? would you recommend this stock? If not what stock I pretty good? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 Profile the hammer and slick up the rails before you do anything to the ports. I don't know what the baseline ammo is or the starting port size should be for the S20, but the process will be the same. as a plus too, if you plan to modify AK forend stuff to fit, the smaller barrel will mean you don't have to remove as much wood. See the reliability link and trigger job link in my signature line for what you should do when converting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poosh507 21 Posted May 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 Again thanks you very much for the advice. I plan to take the whole process very slow, and was planning on smoothing out the action anyway. It felt pretty stiff at the shop. And I'm putting it on layaway after class tomorrow. So next couple of weeks I will have the gun. Oh and is flitz a good compound to use for the action? If so how should I apply it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) No sense in getting a 20 if you can find a 12. A 20 gauge is basically 7/8 oz shot at 1450 fps. Exact same as the 12 gauge international load. This is what I set up Kay Michulek's shotgun for when I originally built it for her. But of course you can can run a more conventional 1 1/8 oz 1250-1300 fps load if you are going to shoot outlaw competition where the steel might not be calibrated to a 9mm minor to fall. Plus you will need a choke on the 20. Gottal keep a pretty tight pattern if you are going to shoot competition and knock down steel with any authority. Dont waste your time with the fitz. Just an exercise in futility. Do the basic profiling and then shoot the living shit out the gun to wear it in. YES, they all need to be loosened up to run really efficienctly unless you move the gas block back. Have fun!! Jack JT Eng. Edited May 4, 2015 by JTE 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Star Arms 2,049 Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 I wouldn't recommend the stock or the 20. Jack is right on the money with this call. The 20 is an engineering compromise between an AK rifle and a true AK shotgun design. It could have been a really great gun, but IMHO Izhmash chose to cut corners instead. If you have your heart set on it, plan to spend an extraordinary amount of time getting it right. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lambert58 22 Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) Ok,I was going to leave it stock for a few weeks to break it in. Then work on it. Does anyone make drums for the 20? Screenshot_2015-04-12-09-41-39.png would you recommend this stock? If not what stock I pretty good? There are no drums on market for the S20.You can get an adjustable choke at Saiga Stock Com on sale for 45.00.You can also buy regular chokes for the S20.I own 3 S20s right now. Two are converted and the parts are on the way to convert the 3rd one. I put an adjustable ATI stock on one. I have a modded Vepr thumbhole stock on the other one. I will put a sidefolder on the one about to be converted.On one of the S20s I opened up the 3 factory gas holes a little and added one more port at factory size. It runs everything but Win Universal.Who would put that garbage in a semi auto anyway?The Suprema ammo is better quality and costs less too,and th S20 will eat it all day long.You can get these shotguns to run everything with a little patience. The S20 is lighter and the ammo is lighter and less bulky, which means you can carry more.Csspecs makes 10 rounders for it.Pesronally I like OEM mags because they load so nicely. You can buy 2 and get one free from Saiga Stock Com in 20x76.Even though they are 3" mags they will also cycle a lot of 2 3/4" shells. They load very nicely on a closed bolt. I would stay away from the wire stock. If you want a sidefolder I would go with an adjustable stock version. Edited May 4, 2015 by Lambert58 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lambert58 22 Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 S20s 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lambert58 22 Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 Been looking at saiga shotguns for a while. Looking to do small time competition, mainly a range toy. Saw an s20 and was wondering if they are worth the trouble. Shop also has a vepr 12 in stock. Also wondering about how to make the frenken mags. Thanks for the input. The V12 is a really good shotgun.Legion has the S433a in stock and IMHO is far superior to the V12. I would buy either one over an S12 with adjustable gas systems. An S20 is another multi-purpose shotgun and really fun to shoot. The kids and the wifey like them too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poosh507 21 Posted May 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 Ok thanks for the info on the mags. The s20 seems pretty good to me because I don't have to buy new ammo. I have a 20 gauge 870 with a ten shot tube that I used for the lil comps at the local range. And with the saiga I think it will help the time and up to fun factor. Plus I love to tinker. Thank you all for the advice. And at the price of those mags I think I will make some high capacity Franken mags as well as get the css mags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poosh507 21 Posted May 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 The barrel is unthreaded so should I have it threaded for rem chokes? Or get a muzzle break or a polychoke? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 It's a 20 ga. The brake is going to be fairly redundant, and the choke fairly necessary. Remchoke would be the way to go. Make sure you find a guy who goes to the inside of the bore, not the o.d. when finding concentricity. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poosh507 21 Posted May 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 yeah I was thinking rem choke. Then if I did put a break on it I would weld it to the outside of the barrel or use a mounting block welded to the barrel. are there any ar stock adapters that you would recommend? Oh and I put it on layaway this afternoon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 It should work with a normal AK type stock unless you want something foldy. KVAR AK stock is US made so it counts toward compliance. Just look through the S20 and S12 picture thread and write down every part you want before you start ordering or doing any work beyond polish. Then think about carrying it and swinging it smoothly and start crossing anything clunky off your list. Simple and light is more better. Especially with a 20. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poosh507 21 Posted May 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Haha yeah I agree it's MORE BETTER. I like simplicity. None of my firearms have any crazy bs hanging off Of them. So anyway for polishing I was thinking of using 400-600 grit to knock off the paint. Then use 1000 and up to get it smooth. Then use polishing compound to smooth more. And finish with mothers mag compound to mirror it. Would this be ok? And how should I go about profiling the bolt? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Your regimen is more than OK. I usually start with oily 200 and call 600 or 800 good. Going up to mothers is just for looks. The point is to get rid of burrs and friction. Make sure to feel the underside of the rails as you smooth up. You can feel the difference if you work the action without the spring in there and rock the carrier around as you do so. you'll quickly notice the dumb shape of the hammer is the biggest problem, and easy enough to fix. It's also a part that is easy and cheap to replace if you goof up. Look at the bolt profiling thread in detail all the way through before attempting any mods to the bolt or carrier. If you mess up that piece, it is gone. No replacements. There are also some areas on the BCG and bolt that must not be messed with. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/50571-how-do-i-polish-the-bolt/page-2 Even simply smoothing the transition between the tail portion of the bolt and the head without a serious profile will make inserting mags easier, but I strongly advise caution if you are at all in doubt. The whole thing is about smoothing motions up and down between shell, and also the carrier and the hammer. If you remove too much, it can't go back. Also removing extra on the bottom will make more work for the bolt as it rotates. If in doubt, either skip the bolt profile, or have Cobra do it. Do profile the hammer as shown in the 'trigger' link in my sig line though. That makes a big difference for cycling. IIRC the hammer is spaced a little differently in the 20 and the .410 than the 12, but I might be remembering wrong. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poosh507 21 Posted May 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Ok thanks for the info. I'm just going to take the sharp edges off the bolt and polish it slightly. And on the carrier I like the looks of the mirror finish, so I hint that's the rout I will take. And as for the FCG they sell one for the 20 that is all set, so I'll just polish that up. for the stock I will try and build my own and use an old wood ak pistol grip. Can I leave the handguard the same And still be compliant? And really, thanks for all the input! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lambert58 22 Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 You can reduce a lot of drag with the profiling as GF mentioned.I like modding Com bloc triggers for my shotgun collection too. They sit a little lower than the G2s and you don't have to remove as much metal.I take some metal off left side of hammers to reduce pull and make a sweeeet hair trigger.Its fun doing that kind of stuff and doesn't cost much if you go a little to far.I recently put an OEM Sar1 trigger in one of my 20s. Will shoot later this week. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poosh507 21 Posted May 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Could you post pics regarding the smoothing of the trigger? And where could I pick up some of this wood? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) There is a whole thread linked in my signiture line with exactly what you need. Just click it. Pictures, text, video. It's all there. You want the US made trigger parts for 922r compliance, which is the main reason people use them. Edited May 5, 2015 by GunFun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Wood... https://www.legionusa.com/ak-wood-furniture-set-en.html 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Other wood https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=surplus%20ak%2074%20furniture Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poosh507 21 Posted May 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 One other question. What is the best way to mount a red dot? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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