Numerous FTFe issues in mag left full overnight.

[boomka 40]

Four lb sledge did nothing, medium ball peen with more velocity did the trick.

Just got to pick up more slugs this weekend and see where it's at.

[boomka 40]

First two slug shots after drifting the sights last week was close enough, I backed out to 100yds and let fly from the kneeling position.

First shot was dead center on my 12" AR500 gong! Unable to repeat with the next two shots so I will use a sandbag on something to take "me" out of the equation next week.

 

Also got to try my new MD-20 drum ( after fitting it ). Slow fire was 100% reliable ( Federal bulk ) but rapid fire always produced a stove-pipe! Is this a known issue? The rounds SEEM to have enough spring behind them even when full ( 20 rds ) do I need one more turn on the spring? Is it something else?

[SGL 530]

Also got to try my new MD-20 drum ( after fitting it ). Slow fire was 100% reliable ( Federal bulk ) but rapid fire always produced a stove-pipe! Is this a known issue? The rounds SEEM to have enough spring behind them even when full ( 20 rds ) do I need one more turn on the spring? Is it something else?

 

The drums seem to produce a bit more drag than stick magazines, making it harder to strip rounds off.   If your gun will barely cycle federal bulk out of stick mags, the drums might be just over the line for you.   You can try making sure you really have your shoulder behind the stock to avoid "limp shouldering" which can make the difference when you're on the edge of cycling or not.

 

The fact that it was reliable during slow fire probably points to it bouncing around in the pocket during rapid fire.     You can probably prove this yourself by either tightening up the shoulder, or dropping some higher dram loads into the drum and I'll bet it runs them just fine.

[boomka 40]

 

Also got to try my new MD-20 drum ( after fitting it ). Slow fire was 100% reliable ( Federal bulk ) but rapid fire always produced a stove-pipe! Is this a known issue? The rounds SEEM to have enough spring behind them even when full ( 20 rds ) do I need one more turn on the spring? Is it something else?

 

The drums seem to produce a bit more drag than stick magazines, making it harder to strip rounds off.   If your gun will barely cycle federal bulk out of stick mags, the drums might be just over the line for you.   You can try making sure you really have your shoulder behind the stock to avoid "limp shouldering" which can make the difference when you're on the edge of cycling or not.

 

The fact that it was reliable during slow fire probably points to it bouncing around in the pocket during rapid fire.     You can probably prove this yourself by either tightening up the shoulder, or dropping some higher dram loads into the drum and I'll bet it runs them just fine.

 

Ya know, now that you mention it I MAY have shouldered it the first few ( slow fire ) rounds and then hip fired the rest, both slow and rapid, will have to be more methodical next time.

I also discovered this scientific formula: Saiga+ #8 shot+ MD-20= one dandy weed whacker lol. My shooting steels are now fully exposed to mayhem! Speaking of mayhem, the slugs seem to impart a significant amount of energy at 20yds or so, my 12" AR500 is hung from chains and the slug nearly spun it up and over it's hang points lol

 

Other mods this weekend were brass shims under the trigger that greatly improved the trigger while still leaving a lot of engagement on the hook. And a great deal of polishing on both sides of the trigger hook, disco, and hammer, I may try an overtravel improvement next week. Also notched the BHO for the safety which significantly aides disassembly.

 

While in there I noticed this RWC has the spring keeper notch on the BHO, bent hammer springs and some trigger hook polishing even before I took to it. Oh got my first hammer spring wound too lol.

[gunfun 3,931]

If you need to shoulder it just right to make it run reliably, you need to work on your gun a little more. It's gas operated, not blowback. The gun should do ALL the work. 

[boomka 40]

If you need to shoulder it just right to make it run reliably, you need to work on your gun a little more. It's gas operated, not blowback. The gun should do ALL the work. 

Agreed and RWC ( or somebody ) has already done a significant bolt profiling.

 

Shot the drum again today and SGL was correct, firing from the shoulder produced no stovepipes slow or rapid fire, firing from the hip always stovepiped when rapid fired.

As I mentioned I down sprung the drum to 2 1/2 turns, I will take it down to 2 turns just for curiosity but I'm pretty set on opening up one or more gas ports.

My reduced pre-travel trigger worked well, but now I need to make an overtravel adjustment as THAT much difference between the two makes it hard to rapid fire ( oh if only I had a MigTig lol ).

[gunfun 3,931]

That's the point of using a double hook and notching the trigger instead of the gun. That gives you a pre-travel stop. Another G2 is $26. Cheaper than a TIG. 

[boomka 40]

That's the point of using a double hook and notching the trigger instead of the gun. That gives you a pre-travel stop. Another G2 is $26. Cheaper than a TIG. 

Yeah but my idea would be fully adjustable in both parameters and easy to make if I had the skills and the quipment, probobly 10 minutes of welding, then a little this and a little that and it's ready for install.  But I need to get this thing running before bothering with all that.

Off the top of your head is there an optimal bit size for opening up the gas ports?

 

Found it

 

b ) If it does not run either 100% proceed to open up your gas ports. The generally accepted standards are 4 ports at .078" - no more than .093", and 3 @ .093" -?? If you get this far, there are good guides on this forum about how to do this step.

Edited August 12, 2015 by boomka

[gunfun 3,931]

Optimal is test and increase in increments until you get to just right, IMO.

 

Others think you should just go huge and be done. I like not having excess gas or crud in my gas block for no reason. Bring a mallet, a cordless drill and $4 worth of tiny bits with you to the range and you can get it sorted. Be sure to have a punch or two and a block of aluminum or brass to keep from marring the gas block. Get the block off at home and do your first step up there.

 

 

start at 4 at .082" and stop somewhere by 4 at .093". Or start at 5 at 0.076"... and stop before it seems like a bad idea. Keep the angle at least as sharp as 30*, even sharper if you can without risking the holes running into each other. 

 

In my opinion, more small holes is better than few large holes.

[boomka 40]

Will do thanks, I'll have to get out my mic and see what small bits I have.

[gunfun 3,931]

Go to an industrial supply. Ask for number and letter bits in  a few steps about 0.002" apart and make an assortment. $6 should give you more than enough steps.

 

http://www.smithbearing.com/images/pdf/ENG-FractionalChart.pdf

You should look at the chart from #45 - #43 or so. It doesn't matter exactly which bits your shop has in stock if you have a progression. 

Also, do all the friction work you are going to before touching the ports. If you are planning to have someone like Cobra762 do one of his nice bolt carrier &FCG refinements, that should happen first.

[boomka 40]

Lol, we don't have industrial supply houses out here, we're lucky if the hardware store sells more than lumber and toilets lol.

Since it runs so well on the stick mag I'm going to try two changes before I try over-porting it. One, like I said, I have downsprung the drum to 2 turns which is probobly way too light but we'll see, number two is I have sprayed the inside wall and "scoop" of the drum with a dry ceramic lube from Liquid Wrench. I got this stuff for my Uzi years ago, it ( the Uzi ) had a well deserved reputation for dumping large amounts of GPR into the receiver which combined with a wet lube would make a mess in short order, the ceramic allowed no wear and never gunked up.

[boomka 40]

WOOO HOOO SUCCESS!!

 

Five and six round strings of bulk Federal rapid fire with no issues other than the trigger keeping me from doing a ten to twenty round string lol

I suspect it was the download on the spring that made the difference.

Next is to reduce the overtravel in that trigger then try a mag dump with heavy slugs to make sure the drum isn't undersprung now.

Then a mixed load in the drum and then finally make the last sight adjustments for 100yds.

 

What kind of accuracy can you get with rifled slugs in a smoothbore barrel?

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

" What kind of accuracy can you get with rifled slugs in a smoothbore barrel?"

 

100 yards is no problem on a man sized target from my experience

[gunfun 3,931]

Lol, we don't have industrial supply houses out here, we're lucky if the hardware store sells more than lumber and toilets lol.

Since it runs so well on the stick mag I'm going to try two changes before I try over-porting it. One, like I said, I have downsprung the drum to 2 turns which is probobly way too light but we'll see, number two is I have sprayed the inside wall and "scoop" of the drum with a dry ceramic lube from Liquid Wrench. I got this stuff for my Uzi years ago, it ( the Uzi ) had a well deserved reputation for dumping large amounts of GPR into the receiver which combined with a wet lube would make a mess in short order, the ceramic allowed no wear and never gunked up.

 

If your place has so much as a farmer using tractors, there is an industrial supply nearby. It might just be a plain sheet metal building that the farmers and machinists go to for supplies. If there is a guy welding together fence posts and rebar, he needs a supplier. They just don't make any effort to advertise to the general public. Their intent is to have businesses as their primary customers. Look up "tool repair" and ask the nearest people. Either they are an industrial supply, or they will tell you where to find one. Or ask a welder, a guy at a muffler shop... There is one near you.

[boomka 40]

Oh my!

Shimmed  the front of the trigger to reduce over-travel and got lucky on the first try, this is very very nice now, very rapid-fire is almost an unconscious act now, I'll have to make a video and see what my cyclic rate is.

 

Also ran some 3 inch 00 buck through it on both setting 1 and setting 2, feel ZERO need to ever shoot that again on setting 2 lol. All the innards are fine, unbattered and unbent.

 

This is turning out to be a very nice and very reliable shotty now as I get the bugs out, hopefully the Auto-Plug will also make it care free, if so I just may have to let it be the "house gun", my AK won't be happy lol.

 

No slugs at wally world this week ( none ) so sighting in at 100 will have to wait.

[storm6490 2,768]

First two slug shots after drifting the sights last week was close enough, I backed out to 100yds and let fly from the kneeling position.

First shot was dead center on my 12" AR500 gong! Unable to repeat with the next two shots so I will use a sandbag on something to take "me" out of the equation next week.

 

Also got to try my new MD-20 drum ( after fitting it ). Slow fire was 100% reliable ( Federal bulk ) but rapid fire always produced a stove-pipe! Is this a known issue? The rounds SEEM to have enough spring behind them even when full ( 20 rds ) do I need one more turn on the spring? Is it something else?

Stovepipe is undergass or just a new shotgun. How many rounds total? Shoot the shit out of it. Best gunsmithing a Saiga can get. Try factory mags, they rock. If the SMG crushes your crimp on the first round when left in the weapon overnight, just put one in the pipe and leave less tension and nine in the mag. Loading weird will also fuck up your first round. Run it dry with good ammo and a little lithium grease on the rails and bolt. You can either modify a virgin to run fast right off the bat or you can break a Saiga in and prove it over time. My Saiga over the years has become as dependable as any weapon I have shot. Good luck and have fun! Edited August 19, 2015 by Stryker0946

[boomka 40]

 

First two slug shots after drifting the sights last week was close enough, I backed out to 100yds and let fly from the kneeling position.

First shot was dead center on my 12" AR500 gong! Unable to repeat with the next two shots so I will use a sandbag on something to take "me" out of the equation next week.

 

Also got to try my new MD-20 drum ( after fitting it ). Slow fire was 100% reliable ( Federal bulk ) but rapid fire always produced a stove-pipe! Is this a known issue? The rounds SEEM to have enough spring behind them even when full ( 20 rds ) do I need one more turn on the spring? Is it something else?

Stovepipe is undergass or just a new shotgun. How many rounds total? Shoot the shit out of it. Best gunsmithing a Saiga can get. Try factory mags, they rock. If the SMG crushes your crimp on the first round when left in the weapon overnight, just put one in the pipe and leave less tension and nine in the mag. Loading weird will also fuck up your first round. Run it dry with good ammo and a little lithium grease on the rails and bolt. You can either modify a virgin to run fast right off the bat or you can break a Saiga in and prove it over time. My Saiga over the years has become as dependable as any weapon I have shot. Good luck and have fun!

 

See post #43.

[gunfun 3,931]

That has nothing to do with a failure to eject.

 

Also the autoplug is for guns that already work perfectly. It has no ability to fix guns that are over frictioned or under gassed.

[boomka 40]

As stated earlier, running 100% now. Installed the Auto plug last night, will get to try it this weekend. They need to reduce thier knurling by a few thousands, spinning it in left a mark on the barrel!

Edited August 20, 2015 by boomka

[gunfun 3,931]

Some of the threads on the gas blocks are a little crooked. Sounds like you got one.

[storm6490 2,768]

 

 

First two slug shots after drifting the sights last week was close enough, I backed out to 100yds and let fly from the kneeling position.

First shot was dead center on my 12" AR500 gong! Unable to repeat with the next two shots so I will use a sandbag on something to take "me" out of the equation next week.

 

Also got to try my new MD-20 drum ( after fitting it ). Slow fire was 100% reliable ( Federal bulk ) but rapid fire always produced a stove-pipe! Is this a known issue? The rounds SEEM to have enough spring behind them even when full ( 20 rds ) do I need one more turn on the spring? Is it something else?

Stovepipe is undergass or just a new shotgun. How many rounds total? Shoot the shit out of it. Best gunsmithing a Saiga can get. Try factory mags, they rock. If the SMG crushes your crimp on the first round when left in the weapon overnight, just put one in the pipe and leave less tension and nine in the mag. Loading weird will also fuck up your first round. Run it dry with good ammo and a little lithium grease on the rails and bolt. You can either modify a virgin to run fast right off the bat or you can break a Saiga in and prove it over time. My Saiga over the years has become as dependable as any weapon I have shot. Good luck and have fun!

 

See post #43.

 

Ok, 43, you're still 8 up. Good luck.

[boomka 40]

 

 

 

First two slug shots after drifting the sights last week was close enough, I backed out to 100yds and let fly from the kneeling position.

First shot was dead center on my 12" AR500 gong! Unable to repeat with the next two shots so I will use a sandbag on something to take "me" out of the equation next week.

 

Also got to try my new MD-20 drum ( after fitting it ). Slow fire was 100% reliable ( Federal bulk ) but rapid fire always produced a stove-pipe! Is this a known issue? The rounds SEEM to have enough spring behind them even when full ( 20 rds ) do I need one more turn on the spring? Is it something else?

Stovepipe is undergass or just a new shotgun. How many rounds total? Shoot the shit out of it. Best gunsmithing a Saiga can get. Try factory mags, they rock. If the SMG crushes your crimp on the first round when left in the weapon overnight, just put one in the pipe and leave less tension and nine in the mag. Loading weird will also fuck up your first round. Run it dry with good ammo and a little lithium grease on the rails and bolt. You can either modify a virgin to run fast right off the bat or you can break a Saiga in and prove it over time. My Saiga over the years has become as dependable as any weapon I have shot. Good luck and have fun!

 

See post #43.

 

Ok, 43, you're still 8 up. Good luck.

 

I don't need luck, I have a Saiga.

[AlBundy 0]

Let me break your heart and piss a lot of people off. The Saiga 12 is a POS. I have owned one for app. 3 years I have finally been honest with myself, it is junk. Cosmetically it is beautiful, it is a fierce-looking shotgun, very stout....But it has to be. Why? After buying diverse magazines from various magazine manufacturers and none of them are consistent in feeding the beast and that especially includes cuss specs. You pay an enormous for the beast and truly it is only worth about &80. Why? It is totally unreliable unless you willing to spend money on having it modified to have it become reliable. Would tolerate that out of a new auto or TV you purchased? No you wouldn't. If you depend on it for personal defense, you are a fool. The gun is NOT reliable. You could club someone with it consistently but not get it to fire when you need it to. If you to constantly replace the original parts due to POOR manufacturing and lousy manufacturing tolerances and inconsistencies. It may look like an ak 47 but no where near the reliability. I recently purchased a uts-15 and though you can't club a person with it it doesn't fail to feed the chamber. The venerable 870 and 1100 are much much better the Saiga 12 and a heck of a lot cheaper. And you don't have to try to find a manufactuer who makes a magazine that successfully feed it. The thing is junk but no one will say it. Why don't I sell me to some other poor slub? I wouldn't foist the POS on another person. If you are willing to spend a couple of grand on getting it to operate reliably, knock yourself out. But a POS is a POS no matter how you dress it up.

[Hawk451 2,230]

Wake up, Al. You're just having a bad dream...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Heartbreaker 1,085]

Let me break your heart and piss a lot of people off. The Saiga 12 is a POS. I have owned one for app. 3 years I have finally been honest with myself, it is junk. Cosmetically it is beautiful, it is a fierce-looking shotgun, very stout....But it has to be. Why? After buying diverse magazines from various magazine manufacturers and none of them are consistent in feeding the beast and that especially includes cuss specs. You pay an enormous for the beast and truly it is only worth about &80. Why? It is totally unreliable unless you willing to spend money on having it modified to have it become reliable. Would tolerate that out of a new auto or TV you purchased? No you wouldn't. If you depend on it for personal defense, you are a fool. The gun is NOT reliable. You could club someone with it consistently but not get it to fire when you need it to. If you to constantly replace the original parts due to POOR manufacturing and lousy manufacturing tolerances and inconsistencies. It may look like an ak 47 but no where near the reliability. I recently purchased a uts-15 and though you can't club a person with it it doesn't fail to feed the chamber. The venerable 870 and 1100 are much much better the Saiga 12 and a heck of a lot cheaper. And you don't have to try to find a manufactuer who makes a magazine that successfully feed it. The thing is junk but no one will say it. Why don't I sell me to some other poor slub? I wouldn't foist the POS on another person. If you are willing to spend a couple of grand on getting it to operate reliably, knock yourself out. But a POS is a POS no matter how you dress it up.

Do you have a cheap Saiga 12 for sale? I'm interested.

[csspecs 1,987]

 

Let me break your heart and piss a lot of people off. The Saiga 12 is a POS. I have owned one for app. 3 years I have finally been honest with myself, it is junk. Cosmetically it is beautiful, it is a fierce-looking shotgun, very stout....But it has to be. Why? After buying diverse magazines from various magazine manufacturers and none of them are consistent in feeding the beast and that especially includes cuss specs. You pay an enormous for the beast and truly it is only worth about &80. Why? It is totally unreliable unless you willing to spend money on having it modified to have it become reliable. Would tolerate that out of a new auto or TV you purchased? No you wouldn't. If you depend on it for personal defense, you are a fool. The gun is NOT reliable. You could club someone with it consistently but not get it to fire when you need it to. If you to constantly replace the original parts due to POOR manufacturing and lousy manufacturing tolerances and inconsistencies. It may look like an ak 47 but no where near the reliability. I recently purchased a uts-15 and though you can't club a person with it it doesn't fail to feed the chamber. The venerable 870 and 1100 are much much better the Saiga 12 and a heck of a lot cheaper. And you don't have to try to find a manufactuer who makes a magazine that successfully feed it. The thing is junk but no one will say it. Why don't I sell me to some other poor slub? I wouldn't foist the POS on another person. If you are willing to spend a couple of grand on getting it to operate reliably, knock yourself out. But a POS is a POS no matter how you dress it up.

 

 

 

So everything is trash because your sample is problematic? And then recommend an Utas? 

 

Odds are you have a common problem that most of the guys here could fix in about 10 minutes..

 

 

 

 

After buying diverse magazines from various magazine manufacturers and none of them are consistent in feeding the beast and that especially includes cuss specs. 

 

Cute... Did you ever try contacting customer service for any of the products?

[SGL 530]

Let me break your heart and piss a lot of people off. The Saiga 12 is a POS. ... If you to constantly replace the original parts due to POOR manufacturing and lousy manufacturing tolerances and inconsistencies. It may look like an ak 47 but no where near the reliability.

 

It sounds like you tried to solve your problems by spending money instead of reading the incredible amount of info available here and addressing the areas that need a little work.  Generally speaking, these guns run beautifully out of the box with the ammo that they are designed for.  If you want to run cheap Walmart birdshot, some guns take a little bit of tweaking but buying aftermarket stuff is not part of that equation.  

 

You may have gotten a gun with some issues, but every one I've had the pleasure of shooting ran great with proper ammo right out of the gate.

Do yourself a big favor and spend some time learning instead of spending money.

[Machinist 150]

Break my heart! PM me. If the gun isn't fubared I'll pay you a fair price for the POS gun. And all the mags.

 

 

 

0278" timestamp="1441142188"]Let me break your heart and piss a lot of people off. The Saiga 12 is a POS. I have owned one for app. 3 years I have finally been honest with myself, it is junk. Cosmetically it is beautiful, it is a fierce-looking shotgun, very stout....But it has to be. Why? After buying diverse magazines from various magazine manufacturers and none of them are consistent in feeding the beast and that especially includes cuss specs. You pay an enormous for the beast and truly it is only worth about &80. Why? It is totally unreliable unless you willing to spend money on having it modified to have it become reliable. Would tolerate that out of a new auto or TV you purchased? No you wouldn't. If you depend on it for personal defense, you are a fool. The gun is NOT reliable. You could club someone with it consistently but not get it to fire when you need it to. If you to constantly replace the original parts due to POOR manufacturing and lousy manufacturing tolerances and inconsistencies. It may look like an ak 47 but no where near the reliability. I recently purchased a uts-15 and though you can't club a person with it it doesn't fail to feed the chamber. The venerable 870 and 1100 are much much better the Saiga 12 and a heck of a lot cheaper. And you don't have to try to find a manufactuer who makes a magazine that successfully feed it. The thing is junk but no one will say it. Why don't I sell me to some other poor slub? I wouldn't foist the POS on another person. If you are willing to spend a couple of grand on getting it to operate reliably, knock yourself out. But a POS is a POS no matter how you dress it up.

[boomka 40]

Folks, please don't drink and post lol.

 

Now, ran my "ultimate test" yesterday. Every pistol I own has to be able to run a "party mix" of various ammo in the same mag and run it limp-wristed as well. FMJ, HP, whatever I have on hand of that caliber, when they pass ( IIRC all mine have ) the testing phase is over and the fun phase begins.

Since a shotgun also runs multiple types of ammo they also must pass this test ( my rifles tend to run just one type and brand of ammo so they don't get this test ). I randomly  loaded the SGM 10 rounder with Federal bulk #7 1/2, some S&B 00buck, Faststeel BB, and some 3" Win 00buck. The first time the 00 loads failed to feed properly ( the S&B 00 SAYS it's 2 3/4" but it's every bit as long as the full brass 3" 00buck Winchester round) , I figured the lighter load before them might not be running the bolt carrier far enough back to strip them properly since when I ran these loads on thier own before, they ran just fine. I put another 1/4 turn on the auto-plug and did the test again and at least in slow fire they all ran fine, however when I started the second test I noticed I had inserted the stick mag on a closed bolt and when I pulled the bolt back the first round did not come up, it stayed in the mag. It was a Fed bulk round with the 3" 00buck Winchester underneath it. Even when I removed the mag from the Saiga the round stayed down until I lightly rapped it against a tree. I originally thought it might be a weak mag spring but if that were the case the top round would be loose to bounce around rather than snug in the mag as this one was.

Is this a known issue with the SGM mags?

I ran two more full mags rapid fire, once with Fed bulk and once with Fed Target Load and they both went well.

I looked inside the top of the empty mag and I see no obvious snags to catch a shell.

 

As for the drunken poster above, my Saiga seems to be 100% reliable with anything but the weakest/cheapest stuff.