panaceabeachbum 0 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Looking thru the old post here for hicap mag solutions for the saiga 12 everytime i see the usas mags and drums mentioned I see all sorts of snide remarks and the thread usualy gets locked. Having owned a usas12 in the days before it was a dd and currently owning a saiga and a bunch of various usas mags I thought I might weight in. The usas drum has its feed lips directly on top of the drum and as such the usas rec is relieved on either side so the drum can fit up into the receiver. The feed lips on a usas drum simply dont protrude far enough to ever make it up into a saiga rec with out some heavy duty gun or drum mods so there is no easy way to ever insert a usas drum in a saiga and cause it to be considered a dd. For the purpose of this thread I am only refering to the 10rd usas stick mags, besides the DD issue the drum wont work and is not in the big picture. All nfa rules apply blah blah............ That said here is a pic of a saiga 5rd and a usas 10 rd mag side by side for comparison in hopes of answering some of the questions that have never been answered in the threads I can find. width saiga = 1.136" usas = 1.232 length front to rear saiga = 3.108 usas = 2.754 the usas mag is wider at the feed lips and holds that dimension down for a distance of .688 inches at which point it tapers to the same width as the saiga mag. I do know the usas mag can be adapted to fit as i was at a 3 gun match a few years back and there was a guy running them in his gun. Besides reducing the width of the mag the fellow had built a steel feed lip arrangement and had tabs riveted on front and rear to fit the saiga. Considering the amount of modifications needed and the fact that usas mags will bring $100+ its probably not a cost effective method of coming up with a hi cap, but thought I would share the info. now just to prod the two members working on ten rounders along Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Wow, some information I've never seen - thanks! I've always wondered the specifics myself. Probably any do-it-yourselfer could fab something up, but as you said, is it worth the price? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stokstad 4 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Wow, some information I've never seen - thanks!I've always wondered the specifics myself. Probably any do-it-yourselfer could fab something up, but as you said, is it worth the price? Thats why I sold the one i had lol. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Do you want to sell your USAS mags/drums? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stokstad 4 Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 Do you want to sell your USAS mags/drums? Did you get the one you bought from me Tony? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
panaceabeachbum 0 Posted April 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 Do you want to sell your USAS mags/drums? no I am waitng on one of the new usas semi's due out in the next few months, looked one over this weekend, had another fellow offer $750 on the drum at knob creek but i know I probably wouldnt find another Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 Do you want to sell your USAS mags/drums? no I am waitng on one of the new usas semi's due out in the next few months, looked one over this weekend, had another fellow offer $750 on the drum at knob creek but i know I probably wouldnt find another What do you mean "new semi usas semi's due out in the next few months" Where did you get this info. I would like to see it. Please respond. Is it something similar. Because the usas is a DD and they can't make anymore for civilians. Please respond. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
panaceabeachbum 0 Posted April 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 Do you want to sell your USAS mags/drums? no I am waitng on one of the new usas semi's due out in the next few months, looked one over this weekend, had another fellow offer $750 on the drum at knob creek but i know I probably wouldnt find another What do you mean "new semi usas semi's due out in the next few months" Where did you get this info. I would like to see it. Please respond. Is it something similar. Because the usas is a DD and they can't make anymore for civilians. Please respond. no problem, glad to respond, the usas is a DD but they can still make it for civilian sales in semi form,its newly manufactured (post86) machine guns that are prohibited not DDs, just like the newly manufactured m203's from Randy Shivak and LMO, $200 transfer tax and jump thru the hoops. The only usas shotguns prohibited from civilian sales are the FA versions. But the gun was available first as a semi auto, bought mine for $1200 from SOG, and can still be produced as a semi DD. Gilbert/interord just dropped the usas project because once it was classed a DD it wasnt a commercialy viable product as its hard to get the average guy to jump thru all the hoops. I will dig out the guys card that had the new USAS shotguns for sale if I can figure out which one it is, he was in the first tent to the left of the concession area and entrance to the gunshop at knob creek . He had 4 or 5 stripped usas receivers in a display case , produced a new in the box usas and one of his employees was telling me they had aprox 80 assembled ready to sell back at the shop and over 1800 receivers and other parts they had purchased from the gilbert/inter auction after the gun was classed a DD. They were telling me they had the new molds for the drum mostly done and figured the price would be in the $6-700 range. I also talked with a guy at Landies table at the show and he said they had about a dozen usas semis for sale. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
panaceabeachbum 0 Posted April 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 here is one for sale on one of the auction boards http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976644295.htm and here is a link to a mag for $40 buy it now on gbroker http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=46872009 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
300RUM 0 Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 The USAS / Saiga cconversion issue is old news. Snide remarks? Please post where you found that here. Most people in the begining looked to the USAS as the answer to the Saiga HiCap mag shortage. Several tried conversions and posted results, I even posted several pictures here w/the conversion problems, do a search. As for as a non DD USAS, I can't wait to see it, if it is really gonna happen. P.S. Hope it will accept 3" shells. Looking thru the old post here for hicap mag solutions for the saiga 12 everytime i see the usas mags and drums mentioned I see all sorts of snide remarks and the thread usualy gets locked. Having owned a usas12 in the days before it was a dd and currently owning a saiga and a bunch of various usas mags I thought I might weight in. The usas drum has its feed lips directly on top of the drum and as such the usas rec is relieved on either side so the drum can fit up into the receiver. The feed lips on a usas drum simply dont protrude far enough to ever make it up into a saiga rec with out some heavy duty gun or drum mods so there is no easy way to ever insert a usas drum in a saiga and cause it to be considered a dd. For the purpose of this thread I am only refering to the 10rd usas stick mags, besides the DD issue the drum wont work and is not in the big picture. All nfa rules apply blah blah............ That said here is a pic of a saiga 5rd and a usas 10 rd mag side by side for comparison in hopes of answering some of the questions that have never been answered in the threads I can find. width saiga = 1.136" usas = 1.232 length front to rear saiga = 3.108 usas = 2.754 the usas mag is wider at the feed lips and holds that dimension down for a distance of .688 inches at which point it tapers to the same width as the saiga mag. I do know the usas mag can be adapted to fit as i was at a 3 gun match a few years back and there was a guy running them in his gun. Besides reducing the width of the mag the fellow had built a steel feed lip arrangement and had tabs riveted on front and rear to fit the saiga. Considering the amount of modifications needed and the fact that usas mags will bring $100+ its probably not a cost effective method of coming up with a hi cap, but thought I would share the info. now just to prod the two members working on ten rounders along Been covered in detail here before. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 (edited) I did some digging around back last year and never found any photos of a converted mag. As simple as measuring or posting pics is compared to the actual work required, and if it was done so many times, you'd think it would be easier to find. Maybe it all got lost when the site was hacked... If someone has done it and posted the info, or found a post, could you please post the links? I'd be happy to add them to the Tech Section. Edited to add 300RUM's posts: USAS 12 Mag Conversion, Did anyone ever post how to do it? http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=4501&hl= USAS-12 -vs- S12 Mag Pictures, Here you go Froggie http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=5239&hl= Edited April 13, 2006 by dinzag Quote Link to post Share on other sites
300RUM 0 Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 I did some digging around back last year and never found any photos of a converted mag. As simple as measuring or posting pics is compared to the actual work required, and if it was done so many times, you'd think it would be easier to find. Maybe it all got lost when the site was hacked... If someone has done it and posted the info, or found a post, could you please post the links? I'd be happy to add them to the Tech Section. Edited to add 300RUM's posts: USAS 12 Mag Conversion, Did anyone ever post how to do it? http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=4501&hl= USAS-12 -vs- S12 Mag Pictures, Here you go Froggie http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=5239&hl= Thanks for digging those up dinzag. I forgot those were so blurry! lol. Oh well. I though I posted more of the pictures with the measurements. The front shelf gap and the rear mag catch were the worst part of the deal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
panaceabeachbum 0 Posted April 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 thanks for posting those links, by snide remarks all I meant was every thread I was able to find starts with the comment its old news, or here we go again, followed by the the whole dd lecture and never adressed the questions asked, but I only searched back a short distance. On the new USAS thats bieng produced you might have misunderstood my post. I never said it wasnt going to be a DD. It will be and is a DD , it will be available for civilian sales just like anyother DD in semi auto form, 200 transfer tax and all the proper paperwork to own. I am surprised i am the only one here that walked into the guys tent with all the usas receivers on display at knob creek. If I understood correctly all the ones that are bieng assembled for future sale are bieng built using receivers and parts made for Gilbert and Interord years ago and all the receivers are currently registered as semi auto destructive devices requiring a $200 tax stamp to own. I dont know for fact that hese newly assembled USAS shotguns will ever come to market, but the guy spent 10 minutes trying toi sell me a new one(thru a DD dealer in my state of course) and I do know i held one, looked at a display case full of receivers , some marked gilbert, others marked interord, and was told they had 1800 more and all the prints and tooling back at the shop to be assembled and sold as semi auto destructive devices on the civilian market. Its entirely possible the guy could have been yanking my chain but when gilbert/interord got out of the usas buisiness there was an auction and all the stuff went somewhere, I just happened to stumble across the fellow that bought it all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 by snide remarks all I meant was every thread I was able to find starts with the comment its old news, or here we go again, followed by the the whole dd lecture and never adressed the questions asked, but I only searched back a short distance. +1 - I still can't find an actual photo of one that has been modified and a range report as to how they function. Looks like the feed angle would have some issues. 300RUM, I may buy a box or two of 3" for hunting, but for using 10 rounders and plinking - 2 3/4" is fine for me. I can't use the 8 or 10 rounders for hunting anyway. Now that I sold my SAS-12 & mags (SAS...not USAS) I may pick up a few more mags and fit them to the S-12. They are all steel, 2 3/4" only, and hold 3 & 5 rounds. $12 each. They are smaller than the USAS and Saiga in all dimensions. They are made to work with a magwell, so the tabs are small - easy to tack on bigger lugs. Nobody's done it yet either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 I did some digging around back last year and never found any photos of a converted mag. As simple as measuring or posting pics is compared to the actual work required, and if it was done so many times, you'd think it would be easier to find. Maybe it all got lost when the site was hacked... The reason that you can't find any pictures of a converted one, is because it has never been done. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
300RUM 0 Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 For me, I did not follow through with a conversion because I sat and studied the USAS mag and the Saiga mag, and the Saiga magwell, it became apparent that a lot of work was required, and at $75 bucks a mag, I could spend a few more bucks and get a factory Saiga 8 rounder from Russia. I'm not afraid of work, in fact I love to tinker, it just became obvious that alot of time, work and money was going to be involved for magazine that may or may not work, and would only accept 2 3/4" shells. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 Hey, are those new (DD) USAS-12 coming from Sunset Guns? When Ramo folded, Sabre Defense got the machinery but sold the USAS parts to Sunset. I spent the last year, off and on, dealing with Sunset over parts but got nowhere. He did say that he was "working" on building semi's for sale... Alex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Telly458 0 Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 Hey,panacea,did the USAS dealer give you a price on the new ones?.I've been debating selling mine,and i'm guessing new ones will drive the current resale price down. I was madly in love with my USAS...until I got my S 12.It's less than half as heavy,fires 3" shells,and will eat anything from low brass to magnum ammo.The only advantage the USAS has is (obviously) the capacity,but who'd want to carry it around (at 15+ lb's with a loaded drum)?.Sill,it gets more attention at the range... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
panaceabeachbum 0 Posted April 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 Hey,panacea,did the USAS dealer give you a price on the new ones?.I've been debating selling mine,and i'm guessing new ones will drive the current resale price down. I was madly in love with my USAS...until I got my S 12.It's less than half as heavy,fires 3" shells,and will eat anything from low brass to magnum ammo.The only advantage the USAS has is (obviously) the capacity,but who'd want to carry it around (at 15+ lb's with a loaded drum)?.Sill,it gets more attention at the range... The guy I spoke with was a short round guy about 40 years old, cant remember his name for the life of me, I collected about 50 buisiness cards but didnt write any info on any of them so I have no idea which one was his. It may have been the same fellow you're talking about since he mentioned he has been working on this project for at least 3 or 4 years. If I understood correctly the only thing he is currently waiting on is getting the drums in production. I was offered a new in the box gun with one mag for $2400, same price Landies offered me a Gilbert marked like new gun for. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 Hey,panacea,did the USAS dealer give you a price on the new ones?.I've been debating selling mine,and i'm guessing new ones will drive the current resale price down. I'm on the opposite side. I'd like to get one, but I don't want to pay today's prices if in 6 months or a year they decide to "move the lot" and the pricing falls. I'm pretty patient, I've already been waiting for a while and think I'll wait to see what happens. Most extreme case of my patience was shopping off and on for a pistol that I always wanted, but didn't really need. Bought a holster for it 3 and a half years before I bought the gun, I new I'd eventually get one, but colt stopped making them and getting the "deal" I wanted took a bit of effort. The only advantage the USAS has is (obviously) the capacity,but who'd want to carry it around (at 15+ lb's with a loaded drum)?. We'll have to get Sinistral rifleman to point us to the video where WAKAL cleans a stage with his. IIRC, one mag change was all that was needed! I'd guess the the reloads are a little easier with the USAS12, tho practice will close the gap. Not an issue unless you are in a timed event ... or fighting zombies. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
panaceabeachbum 0 Posted April 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 I did some digging around back last year and never found any photos of a converted mag. As simple as measuring or posting pics is compared to the actual work required, and if it was done so many times, you'd think it would be easier to find. Maybe it all got lost when the site was hacked... The reason that you can't find any pictures of a converted one, is because it has never been done. It may be true that no one on this forum has ever done the conversion , but I know for fact I stood behind a man at a 3 gun match about 3 years ago with a saiga that was running 10 rd usas mags and he was kickin arse. He was snapping the mags in the gun in normal ak fashion, front first and pull rearward so i assume it was the mags that had been modified and not the gun . USAS mags are pushed straight up to insert. Looking the project over I am quite sure I can machine new tabs front and rear, rivet in place just like the usas locking tab, and thin the feed lips and get the mag to work. My only concern is reinforcing the thinned feed lips to handle the stress of bieng fully loaded with 10 rds. As soon as I get done machining a bunch of krink style gas/sight blocks for some guys on another group I plan to machine a new "tower" (top 3 inches) for the usas mag that replicates the saiga mag and graft it onto the usas mag after cutting the top of the usas mag off. I bought a bunch of usas mags from that guy on gbroker so I am going to use one of my old crappy ones as the test dummy. Tony did you contact the guy with the drum I mentioned? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Telly458 0 Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 (edited) Thanks for the info,panacea. Don't blame you for waiting,Kmoore.About two months ago I had an offer from a DD dealer of $1850 w/drum, $1200 w/ five stick mags,and him paying the $200 tax ( and he intends to resell for a profit).Right now it looks as though used will be cheaper. It'll be interesting to see if they'll sell the new drum mags to the general populace. Edited April 14, 2006 by Telly458 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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