phantom 0 Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 I'm planning to buy either the AR15 or the M4. Since I don't know much about either one can someone tell me the differences between them, any info would help, thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sodak06 0 Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rusty 0 Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Yeah... unless you want to pay $15,000 for a 20 year old weapon (assuming you can find one), select fire and automatic fire aren't options. Anything you could build or buy today is going to be semi-auto only. That said, I bought a 20" Heavy Barrel AR with a fixed stock. Dead nuts accurate at 100 yards and "Minute of Plate" out to 300 yards when I don't screw up. I prefer the AR configuration, but it's really personal preference. Even with a couple of 30 round mags, it was lite and handy enough to carry around for a half day of property clearing out in the boonies. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crosshair 1 Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Go for the 20" barrel. The 16" barrel variants can have cycling and reliability problems because of the pressure curve that the gas system has to work with. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 me personally, im cheap, first off. so keep that in mind when I suggest you just go with a mil spec. ar15 like the eagle arms m15 that I have. there are no special brand specific parts in it, so fixing it or souping it up wont be all that difficult, and its got a lot of bang for your buck. I tend to not like anything that is based OFF a gun when you can get the real thing for less. one other thing about chamberings. there is a long standing arguement about .223 marked chambers vs 5.56mm chambers. if you plan to use surplus ammo, which is the cheap route (usually), defiantely get something with a 5.56mm chamber. the shoulder of the shell itself is slightly different, and it is loaded to a different pressure than stock 223 is, so if you dont want a one in ten thousand round accident to happen in a .223 marked barrel while shooting 5.56mm, then make sure you go that route as well. the eagle I own is chambered for 5.56. yes there is a difference. its not much of one, but its there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
okie shooter 0 Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 The ar system is totaly modular so you can change out complete uppers with lowers(I am not up on this totaly but I think you try to keep the bolts matched with the barrels along with some folks say bolt carriers). Thus you with extra uppers and stocks can do what ever you want to with the rifle. I imagine once you got into this more you would end up eventually just buying extra lowers and having more than one type of ar-15 variant in the end. For my first one I would get a 20 inch heavy barrel with a flat top personally for the ablity to change out scope mounts or just mount the carry handle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 LOL...that is a good one A M4 is a 14.5" barrel; a M4gery (civilian model, sans tax stamp) is 16.1" or 16.5", depending on whose M4gery you are buying. They all run fine. I build custom AR types for fun and profit. Most folks lean toward the M4 due to the slightly lighter weight and the nifty length-adjustable stock (great for short folks, or for "shared" weapons). Having built and sold more ARs than I can remember, and having experimented with my cabel of like-minded freaks and weirdos on AR barrels, I've come to the tentative conclusion that barrel weight doesn't mean squat unless you are firing a lot of ammo fast...like full auto, or MGM Iron Man stages, and even then...not so much. HBAR are nice if you are a "sandwich shooter." You know, the guys on the line who shoot once, swab their barrels for twenty minutes, make and eat a sandwich, wait for the wind flags to line up again, then maybe shoot a second shot. In that case, the extra weight helps stabilize the gun a bit. Bleah. Learn to shoot properly with a decent medium weight barrel (like the M4 or M4gery barrels), 16" or 20" (although I like 18", just to be different, although my test guns are currently 7.5", 14.5", 16", 18", 20", and 24" in .223/AR platforms). Buy from a known brand like Bushmaster, DPMS, our friends at Cavalry Arms, Sabre Defense, etc. And...get a flattop the first time. If you must have the carry handle, get a detachable one. You will thank me later I'm sure the nice Cav Arms guys will chime in. They make a lot more AR's than I do, although I do tend to charge more A Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sodak06 0 Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Yeah, I am going to have to agree with Okie Shooter about the "flat top" reciever. I did not pay too much attention to this after i bought my second one. I WISH I would have got a flat top, the carring handle is a bit annoying and the scope mount is really high on the carrying handle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 Yeah, I am going to have to agree with Okie Shooter about the "flat top" reciever. I did not pay too much attention to this after i bought my second one. I WISH I would have got a flat top, the carring handle is a bit annoying and the scope mount is really high on the carrying handle. Wakal summed it up...between him selling them and using them in competition, he would be the expert I would listen to. I have an M4gery and I love it. No problems cycling, good at 100+ yards (better than I am at least), manuverable, and an overall great gun. Mine's a mutt between a DPMS upper and RRA lower. I would think that you can can skimp a bit on the lower as long as everything is mil-spec, but put your money into the upper and goodies. A 14.5" barrel might be a bit short for some folks, and I'd say a 16-18" is ideal for most people. The shorter barrels often have a higher twist rate which means to get the most out of it you will want to run heavier ammo, which means more expensive ammo. The 16-18" will be good/great at short/intermediate ranges and will be plenty capable of going long, will be cheaper to shoot (any ammo will work), are readily available, and are still short/light enough to be manuverable. Definately go flat-top unless you plan on only using iron sights (who are we kidding, an AR is so much better with some sort of optic on it). You may want to look into getting one with a permant front tower as opposed to bare b/c then you can add removable rear iron sights and have capability besides optics without the cost of front and rear irons. Bushmaster, RRA, DPMS, Olympic, and plenty of others are reputable companies for uppers, lowers, or parts. Do your research and ask lots of questions...ARs are expensive and should be built right from the get-go or you'll have 4 uppers and no money later on. Goodluck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Onepoint 0 Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 ...ARs are expensive and should be built right from the get-go or you'll have 4 uppers and no money later on. Goodluck In my experience "built right" has no bearing on how many uppers you have. Besides, it takes time shooting before you realize exactly what you like to do and set it up for that. Hbars are not bets for offhand shooting, Govt profile is so mucheasier to handle, but I differ opinion on the Hbars usefullness some. I have varminted with Hbars for years and not had to have a bite in between shots yet. Actually my favorite upper right now is a SPR profile 18". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 ...it takes time shooting before you realize exactly what you like to do and set it up for that. So true. Which is one of the reasons that I have an array of test barrels, although I'm lazy enough to chuck together lowers instead of having a stack of uppers and one lower. When you are SO lazy that you would rather spend an hour building up a complete AR lower with a JP trigger (or your version thereof ) than spend a few minutes once in a while swapping uppers...heh heh... Having varmited (nice word, there) for years with everything from .22 pistols to .50 BMG, I like a 14.5" M4 with a Trijicon NSN from the back of a moving pickup, at midnight, in the middle of a 9 section ranch, best of all. When you can offhand a running rabbit from a moving truck with a M4 at night from 70 yards or better with a only a second guy's handheld spot for illumination...now that is entertainment. Sick entertainment, but so is wacking gophers from 700 yards with a light cannon Not that I would ever do such things Since we are talking about favorite guns, and since I'm stuck with M4 with no optics and no comps (sigh) over here, I'll chat longingly about the AR's currently living in my safe back in Texas. My current Open gun is a 16" Sabre-barrel (government profile stainless) flattop. My Tactical is a 18" Oly Ultramatch (trimmed back to 18" and profiled to .750 under the handguards; this is my most accurate AR...I put 18 rounds into a 24" by 18" plate at 900 yards when I was setting up the range card for my then-new IOR 1.1-4; a perfect no-wind morning and me with (surprisingly enough) decent trigger control (for once)) flattop. I still have not built myself a decent Limited rifle, but I could use my wife's HBAR. A girl's gun, to be sure Speaking of my wife, her AR is a stainles Oly 16" Oly barrel thinned down to .640 under the handguard and between the gas block and comp. It holds well enough with mine out to 300 yards...and is, of course, a flattop. See a (flattop) trend (flattop)? Any monkey with a action block and a Armorer's wrench can change barrels, as long as you buy barrels that already are assembled and headspaced. Learn from my mistakes, and I have a complete machine shop at my disposal to correct them (LOL). What would I recommend? Well, obviously I'm fond of stainless government profile barrels. The cheapest, by far, source for those is Sabre Defense. Nice folks, too, and easy to work with. When I get back to the World, though, I think I'll be adding Sabre's version of the SBR to my collection. They made a mid-length fluted 18" barrel that I think would be ideal as the basis for my new Limited gun (the one I'm missing, remember, even though shooting Limited would...force me to learn how to properly reload one of those antique single-loading shotgun things). Flat top, free float, JP front sight assembly clamped just behind the comp (an F2 comp, best on the market, of course ), peep rear, sight rail down the right side of the handguard at 2 o'clock...should be fun. I want the extra barrel length for sight radius (my old eyes need all the help they can get), but my usual Open guns are 16" lightweight barrels because I like shooting fast and the shorter/lighter guns seem to "corner" a bit faster than the 18" or 20" models. They hold out to 300m just fine, too, which is about all the 3-gun guys seem to shoot except or one or two shots at some of the more...interesting...matches Actual milage may vary, not for the other use, and remember that the author is an idiot A Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Wakal....your a sick individual.....and if you were closer to penslytucky we would invite you over to wack groundhogs with us anytime (even if we only use mosins on them, but that cannon of yours would do the trick for the whole den ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted July 8, 2006 Report Share Posted July 8, 2006 varminting? jee, I thought that was wrapping your rifle sling through the handlebars of your quad and tearing through the woods at 40 mph killing anything that is stupid enough to run away... but like wakal, I wouldnt do something like that....of course I would have proper licenses, stay off posted land, wear a helmet, only shoot game that was in season, dismount from the quad before shooting, etc, etc, etc.... ....besides, it is a sin to not eat what you kill (unless it is a human, of course) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Onepoint 0 Posted July 8, 2006 Report Share Posted July 8, 2006 although I'm lazy enough to chuck together lowers instead of having a stack of uppers and one lower. Thats not lazy, that's the unwritten rule that if you have any parts they have to be built into a rifle, and an upper is parts. I built mine last one off a Douglas barrel, rifle length gas system, lighter than my Hbar varminter and probably more accurate, except I regret doing it in 1/7 twist now because I would like to use some light, fast and cheap varmint rounds. Another great source for barrels, and I almost went this way until I found the Douglas for a bargain, was ADCO and White Oak armory. The 16" and 18" middy SPR contoured ones chambered in wylde would have been slick too. And I am right with you on the profiled stainless barrels, though I am not all that fond of the govt profile, I have seen some accuracy difference with them, but only when I have sandbagged the rifle down and its beyond my real world shooting ability to see the difference, but I dont like the idea of a built in limit. Between Hbar, Bull barrel and SPR contour I haven't seen any difference with the ammo I am using. I didn't know Sabre had a 18" fluted middy. Where are you getting them, from them direct? I have been tempted to build another 16" or 18" stainless barreled middy upper to replace a 16" caarbine upper I have. ( I going to have to get another job or sell a kidney if this continues ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted July 8, 2006 Report Share Posted July 8, 2006 BVamp, your hypothetical situation sounds like fun. Hypothetically, of course Sabre? 18" mid-length, mid-weight fluted barrel: XR18MLMW-FL7, MSRP $285. www.sabredefence.com 615-333-077 A Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 Wakal - well hypothetically it probably would be a blast until you run into that hypothetical briar patch or the hypothetical rock wall and go flying....hypothetically....I guess you would be a halfway decent shot if you could hypothetically nail 15 bunnies with 19 shots one time from a .22 while doing that, huh? ...but back to the regularly scheduled thread.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
h8mtv 0 Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 I am a fan of Ar's myself. Definately go flattop and chrome lined. I'd suggest going with a mid-length gas system if you are leaning towards 16". RRA, CavArms and Sabre all make great middys. Bravo Co also makes an excellent line of uppers. Save yourself some bucks and buy a nice upper and buy a lower seperately. That will dodge a federal excise tax. I really live Stag lowers personally. I also have some others but the Stags have consistantly the best finish IMO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
headshot 52 Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 I'm planning to buy either the AR15 or the M4. Since I don't know much about either one can someone tell me the differences between them, any info would help, thanks. Get the AR15 because the receiver with the standard upper is cheaper than the M4gery. You can always just buy an M4 upper and stock later. Most stock collapsible stocks suck anyway, so you would probably end up upgrading anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
h8mtv 0 Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 The M4's and other true gov't profile ar's are more expensive for a reason. Hold an Hbar and a profiled barrel and you'll choose the profiled barrel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 If you HAVE to go AR, go POF gastrap. All the accuracy and none of the jambs. G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
h8mtv 0 Posted July 20, 2006 Report Share Posted July 20, 2006 --> QUOTE(G O B @ Jul 16 2006, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If you HAVE to go AR, go POF gastrap. All the accuracy and none of the jambs. G O B Yeah right. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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