Destructive Device legality

[Mabo 0]

Hello everyone, first post here at the Saiga forums so go easy on me. I have searched the forums and some seem to think the Saiga-12 will one day be classified as a destrucive device. My question is what happens if it does? I assume they are still legal to own but perhaps you are unable to transfer them? I read somewhere that some states do not allow destructive devices while others do (if so does anyone have a list)?

 

I have been thinking about getting a shotgun for a while now and I have narrowed my choices down to a Benelli M4 or the Saiga-12. I think I would prefer the Saiga (although I would love to hear opnions) but I am worried about the "destructive device" issue. Any info anyone has would be greatly appreciated.

 

Also one more question, does anyone have an opinion on the most effective muzzle brake for the Saiga? Perhaps the Shark brake or the AK74 brake from Tromix? Anyone done any side by side testing to see which brake provides the most compensation? Thanks for your help.

[topmaul 42]

I am now officially boycotting all DD threads, I seriously doubt the S-12 will ever be declaired a DD for reasons already expressed. If you interested in DD rules and regulations it's a question for your lawyer not a discussion board.

 

BTW welcome to the forum sorry for the harshness.

[BobAsh 582]

Welcome.

 

Personally I don't belive the saiga-12 is in immediate danger of becoming a DD.

 

The Bennelli and the Saiga are so different...what exactly are you buying a shotgun for?

 

As far as compensator tests go, it's so subjective- you won't find any "data" to help you make your choice.

 

Here at Tromix we make both styles you mentioned...I know a few customers have told me the shark brake works, and I think it's cooler looking.

Edited October 16, 2006 by BobAsh

[IndyArms 10,186]

Welcome to the Forum...

 

As of late, the DD topic/issue has been met with quite a bit of flak from both sides of the opinion fence.

 

Heres my advice...

 

DONT WORRY ABOUT IT!

 

Simple enough.

 

Buy the shotgun that suits your needs.

 

Forget about stressing over a topic you, and likely many others, have absolutely ZERO control over.

 

Enjoy the Saiga TODAY... who knows... tomorrow, you may be dead... hit and killed by a plane, or a stray meteor, or even lightning... I dont see anyone worried about meteor sheilds, or conductive grounding rod suits, or AA guns on their headgear.

 

Paranoia is rampant... dont indulge the trolls...

 

And as harsh as this may sound... if this thread goes the way of the others, it will go the way of the dodo... PROMPTLY.

 

 

Now... for the kinder reply... yes, what are you purchasing a shotgun for? 3 gun competition? hunting? plinking around for fun? If you are looking for a good 3 gun shotty, the Saiga will win hands down. It is cooler, it is FASTER, and I think more reliable than the Benelli, not to mention FAR CHEAPER. As a hunting shotty, it is limited, but fully capable, as I use mine for that... all three flavors. (12, 20, and 410)

For a plinking shotty... it will be the best choice, as far as cost, and fun factor. I hope that helps.

 

[Mabo 0]

Either shotgun would primarily be used as a home defense shotgun. Although I could see using it for three gun matches later on down the line. I liked the Benelli because it is supposedly very reliable, has an 18" barrel, comes with a Picatinny rail, has an eight round capability (with extension tube), and well it's a Benelli

 

The Saiga caught my eye because of the ability to customize it, supposedly very reliable, also has the capability of hold eight (or even more) rounds.

 

Basically I went the most reliable semi auto shotgun on the market. The higher capacity the better, and I would love to customize it to my liking. I know I could probably buy a much cheaper shotugn that would work fine for me but so far I've always bought the best of the best and that has worked for me. My only qualm about buying the Saiga is I don't know the repercussions if it does become a DD. Does it suddenly become illegal to own? Do the ones currently in circulation get grandfathered in? Are government ninjas going to come to my house in black helicopters and take it away from me??? What happens if the BATF declares something a DD that people already own?

 

Thanks for the compensator information BobAsh. Unless someone chimes in saying the AK74 brake functions better I'll go with the Shark brake.

 

P.S. Sorry about stiring up the DD thing. I'm not concerned about if the Saiga will become a DD or not. I really just want to know what happens if the BATF declares something a DD that people already own. What are the repercussions to those owners? Thanks for the comparions of the Benelli and Saiga IndyArms. It's sounding more and more like a Saiga will soon be coming home with me!!

Edited October 16, 2006 by Mabo

[300RUM 0]

Hello everyone, first post here at the Saiga forums so go easy on me. I have searched the forums and some seem to think the Saiga-12 will one day be classified as a destrucive device. My question is what happens if it does? I assume they are still legal to own but perhaps you are unable to transfer them? I read somewhere that some states do not allow destructive devices while others do (if so does anyone have a list)?

 

I have been thinking about getting a shotgun for a while now and I have narrowed my choices down to a Benelli M4 or the Saiga-12. I think I would prefer the Saiga (although I would love to hear opnions) but I am worried about the "destructive device" issue. Any info anyone has would be greatly appreciated.

 

Also one more question, does anyone have an opinion on the most effective muzzle brake for the Saiga? Perhaps the Shark brake or the AK74 brake from Tromix? Anyone done any side by side testing to see which brake provides the most compensation? Thanks for your help.

 

Don't worry about DD. The USAS12 and STRIKER/STREET SWEEPER went DD because of Loyd Benstein and a perfect storm of media and antigun politicians.

 

This DD thing has absolutely been beat to death here and its not settled. It just gets everyones back up. (for the record I say it aint gonna happen)

 

I can attest to the affectiveness of having magna-porting done http://www.magnaport.com/sgun.html had both Pro Port and Pigeon porting done. I also installed a mercury recoil reducer and Pachmeyer triple magnum recoil pad. I can shoot boxes and boxes of 00 buck and slugs, and not start flinching at the end of the day.

 

HTH

[Zundfolge 0]

What happens if the BATF declares something a DD that people already own?

Likely you'll just have to register it (without paying the tax) and then if you want to sell it the buyer will have to jump through the NFA hoops. Not sure what would happen to those in non NFA states.

 

Downsides:

1-if you don't already have one they will be harder to find and more expenseive.

2-you'll have to register it.

3-selling it will be a PITA

 

Upsides:

1-your S12 will at least double in value

2-you'll be on record as having an NFA item (which often makes getting CLEO signoffs easier ... apparently many CLEOs don't like to sign 1st NFA items, but don't mind signing more NFA items for those that own them).

 

 

And for the record I don't see it happening in the current political climate ... but I do believe that the winds of change are a blowin' (and its a cold wind).

 

I don't belive that availiability of a 10 round magazine will be the trigger (maybe a drum mag, but not a 10 rounder). IF it ever happens it'll be part of another AWB.

[Mabo 0]

Awesome news Zudfolge! Basically you are telling me that not only am I going to purchase a kick @$$ shotgun, but maybe if I am lucky it will double in value after I have purchased it

 

None of the downsides you listed sound to bad to me. However missing out on possibly aquiring a Saiga or paying twice as much for one just gives me more of an incentive to buy one now!

[GTwannabe 1]

Striker/Streetsweeper were a special case. The ATF ruled them unsporting, prohibiting them from being imported into the US. The importer then got the idea to bring the tooling to the US and build the guns here. The ATF got pissed that the importer was bending the rules and classified the guns as DD's to stop them. This could be done because shotgun designs with a bore > .50" need to receive an exemption that defines them as shotguns (otherwise they're DD's)

 

The ATF has already "ruled" on the Saiga; it is a sporting shotgun, not a DD. If the ATF decided to drop the sporting exemption for the Saiga-12 (making it a DD), it would only apply to guns imported/built after the new ruling.

 

The only reason all the Strikers/Streetsweepers "became" DD's overnight is because they never received the sporting exemption from the ATF; therefore they were always DD's; therefore they were improperly sold as sporting shotguns until the ATF realized what was happening.

[buckmeister 11]

Here, here on the "enough is enough" DD discussion.

 

The S-12 is a great gun. Wish an American company would offer a similar weapon. Until they do, I'm buying more ammo and going to the range more often. This type of discussion has taught me loads and settled some misconceptions, though I am sure it will surface again. Thanks for the ATF reference letter. It and subsequent discussion should put this puppy to bed.

 

Now someone tell me why USAS-12 mags can't be converted... (I know, the kitten thing).

 

buckmeister

[Bvamp 604]

GTwannabe, what you said is where i have been going with it, at least in part. my other reasonings I seem to have to wind up apologising to LEO members here, so I try to not go that direction, as I always seem to have to be the loser. that is all I am prepared to explain about my particular stance, as it is now.

 

Im sorry if im a bit overzealous, but Ive had enough things stolen from me by our government, along with enough of my rights. I dont want to see any more. If I am acting over-cautious, thats my fault, and Im sorry if it affects or influences any of you all in any way that you would not come to on your own.

 

 

 

ANYWAY, to answer you, what happens...well...

 

if you dont live in a state or area where there are laws requiring you to surrender a DD upon naming it, like NYS, or cities like chicago, you have what is called a grandfather clause. this is a period of i think 10-30 days or right around thereabouts depending on your local law, or if i recall in the case of the USAS12 and striker shotguns, was part of the DD declaration, (like declaring a handgun in states like mine that you cannot own one without a permit when someone dies and wills it to you), where you bring it to your sherriff (the county jail is usually the correct station, mind you, as it is the head sherriff's office in most areas of the USA), and declare and register it ONCE for free to you. this is in most states, an automatic approval of the DD tax stamp, and you dont pay the tax stamp in some cases, but not all. if you DONT declare it, or hand it over, the chances are that they will come knocking asking where it is, (even though it is illegal to keep record of firearms ownership, but will masquerade as a shop's records showing you bought one from them), and throw you in jail until you tell them, in the meantime, seizing anything they feel like, like you gun collection, probably permantly, until you DO tell them where you put it or who you sold it to and when. if a DD turns up later in someone lese's hands that doesnt have it tax stamped to them correctly, they also seem to know, even though they cant keep the record, that you owned it prior.

 

check your local grandfather definitions. it varies by area and state.

 

 

by the way, the striker shotgun was to be had for a couple hundred before it went DD, like the saiga12 is now, and is worth over a grand now. it went to that value inside a month or so, if i recall. f you forfeit your saiga12 or 20 or 410, because of a state that seizes it, they go by current market value, and for a used saiga, it is in the 1-200 dollar range. they dont care what parts you have added. those can be removed, as far as they are concerned. from personal experience, they also dont go by if you have ever fired it or not, and they tell you it is used when they seize it. go figure.

 

 

sorry for the nasty backtone. I cant help it, but I am trying to not "open er up" on ya'll. please bear with me and have some understanding of why I am this way on these things.

[random sylvester 0]

BUY THE SAIGA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

How many 3" rounds does the benally hold?

Can you tow it through mud ,drive a truck over it ,freeze it and then fire it

Edited October 16, 2006 by random sylvester

[buckmeister 11]

Yep, buy a Saiga!

 

A co-worker moved here your neck of the woods. Upon arriving, he called the DPS (state troopers) to inquire about registering his hunting rifle. "(snicker) Boy, this is Texas. Ya don't need no license here(snicker)."

 

Bvamp, you need to move here!

 

In light of knowing this "yankee", I understand a tad more the rantings and reactions and mistrust you have. We jest don't have um down here... the aggravation that is. Heck, all we got is agriculture... and oil. Raging against the machine is sometimes pointless, although it might make one feel better for a time. Perhaps we all need a little paranoia to keep us on guard.

 

The gun-grabbing laws are moving south, just like the killer-bees and fireants are marching north. Makes me want to reach for my DDT! (Is that a DD?)

 

BTW, that damned yankee from New York has become a good friend of this good-ole-boy redneck.

 

... anybody got a sudden craving for bagels? Yeh, outta go good with beer!

 

buckmeister

 

(man did I get off-topic)

Edited October 16, 2006 by buckmeister

[Bvamp 604]

i deal with yanks like you describe on a daily basis. its funny that when they are forced to a different life and community, that they change thier tune fast. I am not one of those. we would get along JUST fine.

 

 

and by the way, bagels are ok, they are even better fried with butter, then add eggs, BUT, hard rolls RULE. they RULE i tell ya. but yer right, fried bagels and beer rules, too. you will crap your brains out the next mornin, but its damn tastey. almost like country cookin' that keeps ya good lookin'.

 

 

 

 

the thing is, why are the DD declaration laws or other grandfather clauses DIFFERENT per area? that seems like a half assed law that was never legal to begin with, that was forced uopn us all, and never followed up on.....just my take on it. you know us yanks. we love stirring the shit up. :/

[buckmeister 11]

i deal with yanks like you describe on a daily basis. its funny that when they are forced to a different life and community, that they change thier tune fast. I am not one of those. we would get along JUST fine.

 

and by the way, bagels are ok, they are even better fried with butter, then add eggs, BUT, hard rolls RULE. they RULE i tell ya. but yer right, fried bagels and beer rules, too. you will crap your brains out the next mornin, but its damn tastey. almost like country cookin' that keeps ya good lookin'.

 

 

the thing is, why are the DD declaration laws or other grandfather clauses DIFFERENT per area? that seems like a half assed law that was never legal to begin with, that was forced uopn us all, and never followed up on.....just my take on it. you know us yanks. we love stirring the shit up. :/

 

Seems some southern boys like ta stir it up too! It keeps the blood pumpin'. (Note to self: Self, gotta remember not to dis' the other guys).

 

I think the discrepency varies proportionally with the number of liberals resident. The "sporting" purpose has always puzzled me. I don't think sport was considered when our forefathers' wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, specifically the Second Ammendment. They were in the middle of a war for independence against tyranical rule, which turned a deaf ear to their combined voice. Deer and quail hunting was not high on their list. Targeting the white "x" surrounded by the red field of a British uniform was more closely their aim.

 

... but don't get me started...

 

Don't worry about a law-abiding, happy armed populous... unless you fear the power they weld outside the ballot box... and you plan on pissing them off.

 

The real distructive device is a well armed mind.

 

buckmeister

Edited October 17, 2006 by buckmeister

[SpicyMchaggis 0]

What other shotgun available offers such a lucritive market for magazines? I mean, it's kind of like a easter egg hunt for 8 and 10 rounders. Instead of using your backyard, it's like using the state of texas. Literally.

 

Bottomline, Saiga's melt faces.

 

Buy.