VEPR 12, first impressions, and a question

[WeaponSF 0]

I just got my new VEPR 12 and fired it for the first time today.

 

I found out that it totally does not work semiauto with 12x70 trap shots.

It does not have enough power to move the slide back enough to even

extract the fired shell - sometimes it did move back enough that it jammed

the fired shell between the lock and body, most of the time not enough to

even try to extract the fired shell.

 

As well, it does not have adjustable gas port, so there is nothing

else to do but to use powerfull enough shots. I really expected

it to have adjustable gas port, like saiga 12, so this was major surprise

after I got the gun. The inside part of the gas port does move freely,

so that is not the cause of the weak gas piston operation.

 

Besides that, it is cool looking shotgun. The slide remains at

back with empty magazine, and these are 8 shot magazines.

The release for slide is next to trigger, and easily operable

with finger. Folding stock is welded permanently open because

of local laws limiting minimum length of shotguns.

 

More negatives :

 

The magazine release lever is quite thin steel and will propably

be bent and broken eventually.

 

The front sight is enough tilted to left that the back sight has to

be adjusted a LOT to left. Clearly a manufacturing fault.

 

The safety lever is so stiff that even though it has a thumb lever

too, there is no chance of operating it with the thumb lever.

It takes a lot of force even with the long safety lever. Propably it

will get easier to operate by time, but definitely it's the most stiff

safety (fire selector) lever of any ak-clone I've ever operated.

 

The system holding the slide back with empty mag doesn't

release the slide by moving the slide back and releasing

it, after exchanging a full mag. It does release it sometimes,

but not every time. Of course, there's the finger release, but

it is somehow intuitive to pull the slide back to release it.

Might be just a matter of using the gun for a while.

 

Quite rough machining at some details. Especially the lock guiding

gooves at the slide are very rough and one can see the end-mill

movements clearly at the 3d surface. Considering that this is a

sliding surface, it seems quite rough. Propably works ok, but much

rougher than what I'm used to in other weapons.

 

The user's manual has only text and no drawings at all. This was

the german manual, and no russian manual was included.

 

The question :

 

Anyone with VEPR 12 - does it work with cheap low-powered

12x70 trap shots ever? I'm wondering whether my gun has

misaligned gas-port holes or such, or if this is just how the gun

should operate.

[polik6887 0]

damn thats kind of depressing that their quality is so low. how the hell did you get your hands on one of these.

[WeaponSF 0]

how the hell did you get your hands on one of these.

 

They are available in Europe.

[RollingThunder 0]

The Vepr 12 can be purchased here prices listed are basic config (no extra mags etc.).

 

Some help with translation can be found here (it misses some technical words).

 

I don't know about importing to the US.

 

My opinion about the Vepr 12 is that it is an excellent race gun but not as heavy duty as the original Saiga 12. The finer mechanical details and the complex function could make it more sensitive to environmental factors, hence less reliable. This is a guess, but I am sold at the commercial from Izhmash where they say the (original) Saiga works in all climates under all conditions.

 

Maybe you gun smiths out there know more about reliability?

 

A brief feature-by-feature comparision to the Saiga 12 can be found here (this post describes a late prototype from 2006).

[DaGroaner 2]

The Vepr 12 can be purchased here prices listed are basic config (no extra mags etc.).

 

Some help with translation can be found here (it misses some technical words).

 

I don't know about importing to the US.

 

My opinion about the Vepr 12 is that it is an excellent race gun but not as heavy duty as the original Saiga 12. The finer mechanical details and the complex function could make it more sensitive to environmental factors, hence less reliable. This is a guess, but I am sold at the commercial from Izhmash where they say the (original) Saiga works in all climates under all conditions.

 

Maybe you gun smiths out there know more about reliability?

 

A brief feature-by-feature comparision to the Saiga 12 can be found here (this post describes a late prototype from 2006).

 

 

IMO a LRBHO makes the lack of a magwell on the S-12 moot since it's very easy to attach a full mag with the bolt open. Jeric's LRBHO and AGP's 10-round mag provide an added advantage to the S-12 over the VEPR. I also think Jeric's extended mag release is superior to the VEPR's. Add an Ace folder and the new Ultimak for the S-12 and it's no contest. Then throw in Kreb's sights and a Tromix door breacher and The S-12 with a little bit of American ingenuity is the clear winner.

Edited January 7, 2007 by DaGroaner

[6500rpm 670]

I'm not sure how easy it is to check on the VEPR, but you said the front sight is canted-is it canted far enough that the gas block is blocking any of the gas transfer ports in the barrel? If not, can you move the block to center it ( like with a Romanian AK) and enlarge, or add to, the gas port holes? Also, are you running a buffer (take it out and recheck). Just a few suggestions.

[WeaponSF 0]

I'm not sure how easy it is to check on the VEPR, but you said the front sight is canted-is it canted far enough that the gas block is blocking any of the gas transfer ports in the barrel? If not, can you move the block to center it ( like with a Romanian AK) and enlarge, or add to, the gas port holes? Also, are you running a buffer (take it out and recheck). Just a few suggestions.

 

It's not possible to check it easily, as one can't see the gas holes of the barrel.

 

There is a drilled hole pointing downwards at the end of the gas-port, and

that's all one can easily see, without removing the whole gas-port-assembly,

or using boroscope to see through the holes from the barrel - and I don't

have a boroscope. It is a new gun, so I'm not going to alter it. I just want

to know if it SHOULD work with 12/70 trap shots or not, and if it should,

then it will have warranty for fixing it. If not, I can live with using heavier

12x76 shots.

 

Like this cross-section, P is gas-port assembly, B is barrel, S front-sight,

G gas-piston, ---- gas-piston tube, ==== gas-piston extension to slide.

A little out-of-scale but shows the basic structure. Everything to right is

like any ak. Look in non-proportional font!!

 

SSSS

SSSS

SSSS

PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP-----------------

PP GGGGGGG -------------------

PP GG ===============

PP GGGGGGG -------------------

PP PPPPPPPPPPPPP------------------

PP PP

BBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB

 

 

BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB

PPPPP

 

The structure IS rather peculiar in that the clearance between PPP and GGG

is rather small.. The difference in ID of P, and OD of G, is around 1mm.

The gas piston tube ---- is like any ak with longitudinal "grooves" pressed

to the tube for flow of gas past the piston. Also, the movement of G is just

something like 10-20mm, inside the PP part.

 

There is no slide-buffer, and I can't see how that would affect anything.

The slide does not move far enough back to touch a buffer anyway.

Edited January 7, 2007 by WeaponSF

[inparidel 4]

I just got my new VEPR 12 and fired it for the first time today.

 

I found out that it totally does not work semiauto with 12x70 trap shots.

It does not have enough power to move the slide back enough to even

extract the fired shell - sometimes it did move back enough that it jammed

the fired shell between the lock and body, most of the time not enough to

even try to extract the fired shell.

 

As well, it does not have adjustable gas port, so there is nothing

else to do but to use powerfull enough shots. I really expected

it to have adjustable gas port, like saiga 12, so this was major surprise

after I got the gun. The inside part of the gas port does move freely,

so that is not the cause of the weak gas piston operation.

 

Besides that, it is cool looking shotgun. The slide remains at

back with empty magazine, and these are 8 shot magazines.

The release for slide is next to trigger, and easily operable

with finger. Folding stock is welded permanently open because

of local laws limiting minimum length of shotguns.

 

More negatives :

 

The magazine release lever is quite thin steel and will propably

be bent and broken eventually.

 

The front sight is enough tilted to left that the back sight has to

be adjusted a LOT to left. Clearly a manufacturing fault.

 

The safety lever is so stiff that even though it has a thumb lever

too, there is no chance of operating it with the thumb lever.

It takes a lot of force even with the long safety lever. Propably it

will get easier to operate by time, but definitely it's the most stiff

safety (fire selector) lever of any ak-clone I've ever operated.

 

The system holding the slide back with empty mag doesn't

release the slide by moving the slide back and releasing

it, after exchanging a full mag. It does release it sometimes,

but not every time. Of course, there's the finger release, but

it is somehow intuitive to pull the slide back to release it.

Might be just a matter of using the gun for a while.

 

Quite rough machining at some details. Especially the lock guiding

gooves at the slide are very rough and one can see the end-mill

movements clearly at the 3d surface. Considering that this is a

sliding surface, it seems quite rough. Propably works ok, but much

rougher than what I'm used to in other weapons.

 

The user's manual has only text and no drawings at all. This was

the german manual, and no russian manual was included.

 

The question :

 

Anyone with VEPR 12 - does it work with cheap low-powered

12x70 trap shots ever? I'm wondering whether my gun has

misaligned gas-port holes or such, or if this is just how the gun

should operate.

 

Two important points:

 

First, not even Saiga -12s work with the extra high vel trap loads. . .that is the ones with under 1oz. of shot. the load doesn't stay in the barrel long enough to provide the required back pressure. If these were NOT the 7/8 oz. loads, please let me/us know.

 

Second, WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED???? I KNOW OF NO IMPORTERS HERE IN THE USA. IF YOU ARE IN THE US, PLEASE TELL ME THE NAME OF THE IMPORTER. I STILL WANT ONE!!!!!!@!

[WeaponSF 0]

First, not even Saiga -12s work with the extra high vel trap loads. . .that is the ones with under 1oz. of shot. the load doesn't stay in the barrel long enough to provide the required back pressure. If these were NOT the 7/8 oz. loads, please let me/us know.

 

Just normal trap shots, not anything special. I don't know the weight

of the lead in the shots. Thanks for a hypothesis!

 

I'll try it again next weekend with other shells, and will know more.

 

Second, WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED???? I KNOW OF NO IMPORTERS HERE IN THE USA. IF YOU ARE IN THE US, PLEASE TELL ME THE NAME OF THE IMPORTER. I STILL WANT ONE!!!!!!@!

 

I'm in Europe.

[kmoore 3]

If you don't mind tinkering, you could look for a replacement spring, then clip a couple of coils? Or look for the spring from another pistol that might match the one in the gun, many pistol springs are available in different strengths so that shooters can tune the round to the gun (reloadering and underpowering).

 

Polish the parts that mate.

 

Make sure that it is clean of all man grease?

 

Lastly, Maybe just run a bunch of high powered loads (buck, heavy bird, slug, etc), then try back. Some of the roughness may smooth out.

[getitat 609]

 

My opinion about the Vepr 12 is that it is an excellent race gun but not as heavy duty as the original Saiga 12.

 

Man, I thought we had some racial tensions over here...I've never considered a special gun for racial conflicts.....<JUST JOKING!!!!!!>

 

In jest, guido2 in Houston

[Ronswin 26]

If you don't mind tinkering, you could look for a replacement spring, then clip a couple of coils? Or look for the spring from another pistol that might match the one in the gun, many pistol springs are available in different strengths so that shooters can tune the round to the gun (reloadering and underpowering).

 

Polish the parts that mate.

 

Make sure that it is clean of all man grease?

 

Lastly, Maybe just run a bunch of high powered loads (buck, heavy bird, slug, etc), then try back. Some of the roughness may smooth out.

 

Kenneth is right. The Saiga shotguns must be cleaned thoroughly before shooting in order to remove the cosmoline-like grease from the internals, otherwise malfunctions will occur. Second, there is a break-in period with some shotguns including the Saiga. A friend's Benelli autoloader was a complete jam-a-matic at first. He returned it to the shop and was told by the salesman to used high brass shells for the first couple of hundred rounds and now years later it is very reliable.

Can you post some pictures (especially close-ups) of the Vepr as this is a rare firearm to the U.S.

[inparidel 4]

First, not even Saiga -12s work with the extra high vel trap loads. . .that is the ones with under 1oz. of shot. the load doesn't stay in the barrel long enough to provide the required back pressure. If these were NOT the 7/8 oz. loads, please let me/us know.

 

Just normal trap shots, not anything special. I don't know the weight

of the lead in the shots. Thanks for a hypothesis!

 

I'll try it again next weekend with other shells, and will know more.

 

Second, WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED???? I KNOW OF NO IMPORTERS HERE IN THE USA. IF YOU ARE IN THE US, PLEASE TELL ME THE NAME OF THE IMPORTER. I STILL WANT ONE!!!!!!@!

 

I'm in Europe.

 

 

Read the box. It always tells you the shot weight. Let me/us know. thanks much.

[pedal2alloy 206]

They are available in Europe.

 

Did they just recently become available where you are?

 

Also, ask your dealer if he can get replacement parts for it and let us know. In the U.S., these parts would be in high demand: 8 round mag, magwell, BHO linkage, bolt, hinged top cover, front handguards w/retainers, and flash hider.

[inparidel 4]

They are available in Europe.

 

Did they just recently become available where you are?

 

Also, ask your dealer if he can get replacement parts for it and let us know. In the U.S., these parts would be in high demand: 8 round mag, magwell, BHO linkage, bolt, hinged top cover, front handguards w/retainers, and flash hider.

 

Good idea, but, that assumes that they fit, notwithstanding the immediate similarities. Do they fit?

[ZakherBakher 1]

Edited January 9, 2007 by ZakherBakher

[scoutjoe 276]

Nice pics there ZakherBakher, espically for us who can't see one of those in person

 

that being said i'll stick with my S-12..that Vepr looks too tatical and not enough practical

[ZakherBakher 1]

that being said i'll stick with my S-12..that Vepr looks too tatical and not enough practical

 

Exactly

[TacticalResponse 0]

Izhmash(Saiga) became the owner of the Molot (Vepr) plant in 2005. It would appear that Izhmash has allowed quality control at their Molot plant to self-destruct. I'll never buy another Vepr AK that has been made by Izhmash at their Molot Plant.

[ZakherBakher 1]

Izhmash(Saiga) became the owner of the Molot (Vepr) plant in 2005. It would appear that Izhmash has allowed quality control at their Molot plant to self-destruct. I'll never buy another Vepr AK that has been made by Izhmash at their Molot Plant.

 

Generally Vepr AKs have much better quality than this new Vepr-12 stuff and ordinary better than IZHMASH's saiga AKs. All I said above is about Vepr-12 solely. Molot plant is much smaller than IZHMASH and they having trouble during this stage of mass production this particular shotgun model. But I somewhat agree on your thought about possible QC problems because I was unpleasantly surprised with my V-12 quality in comparison with Vepr AKs I saw.

Edited January 9, 2007 by ZakherBakher

[qbertquartz2 0]

Izhmash(Saiga) became the owner of the Molot (Vepr) plant in 2005. It would appear that Izhmash has allowed quality control at their Molot plant to self-destruct. I'll never buy another Vepr AK that has been made by Izhmash at their Molot Plant.

 

this vepr 12 is new to me! the older vepr rifles in the us are really top notch. i heard they are getting more hopefully soon. molot has always had nice products and qc.

[TacticalResponse 0]

Yes, Molot has always had high quality products. However sense being taken over by Izhmash and the report of poor quality control from ZakherBakher. One has to wonder if the Vepr has a future.

[ZakherBakher 1]

Yes, Molot has always had high quality products. However sense being taken over by Izhmash and the report of poor quality control from ZakherBakher. One has to wonder if the Vepr has a future.

 

Today I had a chance to look inside newly bought Vepr-308 manufactured in third quarter of 2006. Quality was quite fine. I think the problem is 'garage' style of manufacturing this very model of shotgun. Its narrower (RPK) receiver compare to Saiga-12 force them to redevelop some parts and they have no productive capacity (like much larger IZHMASH) to experimenting with right alloys. As I know engineers and managers on these plants have no special liking to each other so there is no actual cooperation take place. Most of them are very hard to motivate to do their jobs (my Saiga-12 for example being repaired for about Year). So we've got what we've got.

Edited January 16, 2007 by ZakherBakher

[inparidel 4]

 

My opinion about the Vepr 12 is that it is an excellent race gun but not as heavy duty as the original Saiga 12.

 

Man, I thought we had some racial tensions over here...I've never considered a special gun for racial conflicts.....<JUST JOKING!!!!!!>

 

In jest, guido2 in Houston

 

No flame, but upon what inf are you basing that statement????

[inparidel 4]

Izhmash(Saiga) became the owner of the Molot (Vepr) plant in 2005. It would appear that Izhmash has allowed quality control at their Molot plant to self-destruct. I'll never buy another Vepr AK that has been made by Izhmash at their Molot Plant.

 

 

Does that include the VEPR rfles: 5.45, 5.56. 7.62, and 3.08/qnd or 30-06?? They have traditionally bee supremely strong and accurate RPK receivers and withouut match in most AK rifles.

Edited January 17, 2007 by inparidel

[getitat 609]

Quote from "Rolling Thunder's " post:

quote name='Rolling Thunder' post='115178' date='Jan 7 2007, 01:58 PM']

"My opinion about the Vepr 12 is that it is an excellent race gun but not as heavy duty as the original Saiga 12."

 

 

Quote in bad taste by Guido2:

[

"Man, I thought we had some racial tensions over here...I've never considered a special gun for racial conflicts.....<JUST JOKING!!!!!!>"

 

In jest, guido2 in Houston

 

Quote by inparidel:

No flame, but upon what inf are you basing that statement????

[RollingThunder 0]

Hey guido2 - not sure if you are asking me?

 

If you are, then my answer is this:

 

My opinion about the Vepr 12 is based on the feeling of it in general and in particular the details (such as mag release, mags etc.). I have touched it and seen it in action. I have also seen it break.

 

I can't really imagine the Vepr 12 being towed behind a truck through dirt and mud before shooting well. Hence the S-12 seem more robust and simplistic to me.

 

See the Video at Youtube where they torture some guns (at approx 00:50 seconds).

 

Having said that I want to add that there is no such thing as "too many guns". So the recommendation would still be to go and get at least one Vepr anyway if one can afford/get it.

 

My personal choice for competition is still my S-12.

[WeaponSF 0]

So, now I have fired the VEPR 12 for about 400 rounds.

 

Summary:

 

With 12/70 24g trap/sheet shots it doesn't work semiauto at all.

With 12/67.5 28g slugs it doesn't work semiauto at all. Very good accuracy though.

With 12/70 32g 2.4-3.0mm rounds it does occasionally work semiauto.

With 12/70 36g 3.0mm rounds it kinda works, 0-4 faults per magazine.

With 12/76 50g 4.0mm rounds it works. I got a couple of faults because the

rounds got jammed to the magazine and the magazine didn't feed them

properly - some rounds seem to have slightly too big diameter.

 

It is not too encouraging that I fired ONE magazine with no

problems in all those 400 rounds. Really.

 

I did look with endoscope at the gas holes and they are perfectly

aligned to the gas port. There are 5 holes, in a circle pattern.

 

It does seem to be that this shotgun is simply designed for minimum

12/76 50g shots, and doesn't work with less. I'll have to think

about drilling the gas holes to larger diameter, so I can use the

cheap 12/70 shots. I fear that making the recoil spring shorter will

cause problems with feeding. There IS a spare recoil-spring that

came with the gun, though.

 

Amazingly, a german magazine "Visier" had an article about the

VEPR 12, tuned into a IPSC version (with double price to normal

VEPR 12) by some German company. The article mentioned using

cheap ammo, which in my VEPR 12 doesn't work semiauto. Perhaps

they have drilled the gas holes bigger for the IPSC version.

 

Still, it is one fun gun to shoot with reddot sight!

Only I must get the reliability to be reasonable.

[WeaponSF 0]

[ZakherBakher 1]

With 12/70 32g 2.4-3.0mm rounds it does occasionally work semiauto.

With 12/70 36g 3.0mm rounds it kinda works, 0-4 faults per magazine.

 

I would not call it "no problem"

 

It does seem to be that this shotgun is simply designed for minimum

12/76 50g shots, and doesn't work with less.

 

Nope. at least 12/70 32g should work fine. lighter may not.

 

I'll have to think about drilling the gas holes to larger diameter, so I can use the

cheap 12/70 shots.

 

It's kinda complicated and you can easily damage your barrel beyond repair. Find a good gunsmith you can completely trust but better forget about it. IMHO problem is not here.

 

I fear that making the recoil spring shorter will

cause problems with feeding. There IS a spare recoil-spring that

came with the gun, though.

 

Yes it will cause problems and will not help according to three other V-12 I saw. All their problems were in mags and people who cut their recoil springs tore the hairs from their asses with words "why did I do that?!". If you have spare spring you can try it and see if it help. It would be better not to cut original spring. Possibly your spare spring is for light loads like 28g shells. It's possible though that you are right and your gas settings is overregulated to upper limit somehow but unlikely.

 

Amazingly, a german magazine "Visier" had an article about the

VEPR 12, tuned into a IPSC version (with double price to normal

VEPR 12) by some German company.

 

I think it was V-12 used on Greece ESC'06 IPSC Championship by German guy. As far as I know his V-12 got seriously broken twice during the competition (they have had to take it to local gunsmith both times). This will not stop that guy from taking personal 2nd place in open class though . The only guy he let pass forward was Vatslav Vinduska from Chezh republic with Saiga-12.

 

My recommendation still sand the mags first, then do other things later starting from least laborious and irreversible.

Edited January 20, 2007 by ZakherBakher