10 rd mag test.

[G O B 3,516]

Sundays range session. 501 range test of new 10 rd mags.

 

1. Nobel Sport law enforcement 00buck 2 3/4 12 pellets 1290 fps (from box)

100% reliable. Tight groups about 5" circle at 50'.

 

2 Barnul steel hulls. WILL NOT WORK for any shell except the top one. Maybe when the mags are well worn,

but for now the rims wedge before they can get to the second from the top position in the mag.

There is a ramp at the back of these mags near the top that the heavier rim of the Russian wedges on. Also the thicker rim does not leave enough clearance in the rim groove .

 

3. SAIGA 12's are even MORE fun with 10rd mags! Everyone wants to know WTFIT?

[scoutjoe 276]

I also found out on Sunday that my 10rd mags don't like PMC 3" turkey loads, the S-12 cycled them but the mag wasn't feeding them

[THE_HUNTER 2]

Those PMC turkey loads will not fire in my S+W Model 1000 magnum 12 gauge semi-auto. Not the best quality loading...Never tried them outta my 10 rounders and S-12.

[jaak 0]

so those lawman rounds are pretty good? i ordered a box of 10 to test them out, but i plan on buying a case if they work ok.

[frr 1]

my expereince after two outings with the saiga using 10 round mags:

 

my saiga did not like the nobel sport + 10 rounders. every 2nd or 3rd round would not feed properly. they say I need to break the gun in, and it only has about 150 rounds through it right now, but so far im unimpressed with that. of everything ive tried, the only shells that have been 100% for me so far are winchester xpert steel shot waterfowl & heavy upland game loads (3" 1.25 oz 2 shot). perhaps Ill try it again after I have 500+ rounds through my gun. I hope it gets better because so far just about everything ive tried feeds like shit, I have lost all confidence in the saiga beyond a toy, Id never trust my life to it.

 

also, it seems like they could have used heavier spring in the 10 rounders, one of mine just seems to have a problem pushing the round up that last 1/2 inch. there is a sticking point

[wayne grow 0]

I had the same experience as "frr" with the Noble Sport in my 10 rounders. Rounds would not cycle up in mag fully and would be rammed in low just below the ramp of the receiver. I dremmeled down the side stablizing blocks(one on either side of the top of the internal walls of the mag) and feeding problems with this round resolved. I'd heard people say the Noble Sport caused a lot of fouling and that was not my experience but there is some kind of felt pad in the wadding which sometimes gets shredded up in the air and caused my eyes to get a bit fouled....no biggy on the range but something to think about in the tactical situation.

[jaak 0]

my expereince after two outings with the saiga using 10 round mags:

 

my saiga did not like the nobel sport + 10 rounders. every 2nd or 3rd round would not feed properly. they say I need to break the gun in, and it only has about 150 rounds through it right now, but so far im unimpressed with that. of everything ive tried, the only shells that have been 100% for me so far are winchester xpert steel shot waterfowl & heavy upland game loads (3" 1.25 oz 2 shot). perhaps Ill try it again after I have 500+ rounds through my gun. I hope it gets better because so far just about everything ive tried feeds like shit, I have lost all confidence in the saiga beyond a toy, Id never trust my life to it.

 

also, it seems like they could have used heavier spring in the 10 rounders, one of mine just seems to have a problem pushing the round up that last 1/2 inch. there is a sticking point

 

how does it feed in the 5 round mag? might be that the agp just feeds like crap(ive heard that)

[pedal2alloy 206]

I don't know what kind of tolerances you can get in the manufacturing of injection molded plastic. I'm assuming that if you are within .005 you are doing quite well, but this could be enough for the follower or a shell or the rim, to get held up. So I don't think it is unusual for this assembly of molded parts to need some tuning for optimum performance. Even the factory Russian mags have needed some sanding of the inside of the mag body for the follower to move freely.

 

If the top round sits at the right feed angle (compare your factory and AGP mags side by side) then your feed lips are doing what they are supposed to do and you are in good shape. Just figure out where things are binding, take care of those areas and everything will be fine. You will also find that the springs have plenty of power.

[frr 1]

Come to think of it, no problems at all with my 5 round mag. To be fair though, I only used it a couple of times with two different kind of shells. I think what I may do is pick up a factory 8 rounder and see how that goes, as well as put a bunch more though the 5 rounder. Next time we have a really nice warm and sunny day, Ill have to make an afternoon out of it. I highly suspect my issue is more with the mags than the firearm, Ill have a better idea next time I take it out.

 

how does it feed in the 5 round mag? might be that the agp just feeds like crap(ive heard that)

[whatmanual 44]

A couple things....

 

For those that don't know: The magazine is not an impromtu grip. The rear latch when it clicks in allows for a "little" play in there...but it should rest downward against the latch.

 

Bascially, its all about the feed angle, and free movement.

 

 

The AGP 10 rounders are fine, but you should keep a few things in mind.

If you bind a round in that mag, make note of it. Odds are you might have to "tune" it a little. As mentioned elsewhere, its a matter of smoothing those guides inside a little, or perhaps ever so slightly grinding the feed clip angle to allow more rise.

Remember...you can take off but can't put back in most cases (although you could always ask for more feed clips if you go past your tolerance while tuning it).

 

Furthermore, this becomes even MORE important (just my opinion) when you have 3 inch shells in there....its closer to the breach when its pushed out. Less time to get it right on the weapon cycle. Food for thought.

(personally, 2 3/4 is ideal on 10 rounders. 3" shells I reserve for the 5 rounders =Its just where I place my trust for "mostly" reliable loading on that length.

 

 

 

As for rounds:

If you leave a full magazine with "plastic" shell types in there and loaded (ESPECIALLY 10 rounders) you will probably deform a little bit. Its almost a guarantee with a 10 rounder if you leave it for a few days. If you have slugs on top its not so bad -mainly because the shell itself has a lot of support from within the shell (keypoint....birdshot is "mushy" in comparison to solid rounds or even 00 buck).

 

Types of ammo:

Range time I've used mostly Federal ammunition.

 

I prefer the Federal premium Vital Shok 2 3/4 00buck. Reliable so far without any issue.

 

Ive shot countless boxes of Winchester 2 3/4 00buck (9 pellet -15 round box). My impression is mixed. Although it cycles ok, Ive had jams on my stock saiga feeding from the 10 rounders. Furthermore, Winchester power in general sucks in my opinion. It simply doesnt burn clean. No way Im convinced otherwise. Ive run 100 rounds Federal and cleaned it (no issues with removing piston cap). Not too bad overall. Ive then fired 100 rounds of the Winchester...horrible trying to remove the cap -let alone the piston. Ugh...boatloads of crap all inside the piston chamber caked on there...and thick too.

 

Ive also fired 20 boxes of Nobel Sport buck shot (10 round boxes). 2 3/4 00buck 12 pellet. All I can say is that although they fire ok, I do not like the "clear" plastic shells at all. I've had FTL (fail to load) several times with those. The "end cap" crimps itself on the lower part of the breach while pushing forward a lot. This is an important point to remember....its not the same kind of closure up front -and its still plastic (with no shot to support the cap itself if you look -thats why). If left in a mag and loaded for a period of time, they can tend to be slightly "egg" shaped.

However, loading at the range and simply shooting them off is much more successful....but still, not something I would store in the gun for any SHTF. simple as that.

 

 

As for simple range blasting on setting 2 (or even setting one once it breaks in).

I dont mind the Federal 2 3/4 #6 "game shock" (game load) for about $4.50 for a box of 25....(not the "hi brass lead" type -about $8 for a box of 25). I find this round cycles just fine.

Ive shot the Federal 7 and 9 "birdshot"....creampuff rounds and Ive had a few "stove pipes" using those lighter rounds -even on setting 2. (again for those who don't know...a stove pipe is where you fire the shot and during the eject the shell jams facing outward where the bolt goes forward....thus looks like a stove pipe just smoking away). ANYWAY, my simple theory is this: the heavier shot = more force required behind it to push it out. Those lighter loads past a #6 just move too easily to provide enough pressure to cycle the weapon (**Remember, this isnt a PUMP. We need that gas pressure).

 

Remmington,

Cannot say enough praise for shot to shot consistency. Powder burns real well and after 100 shots -I can STILL hear that piston "click clock" back and forth. No way I can say that for any Winchester product.

 

 

In short: Federal for Buck. Federal or Remmington using heavier grade #4-6 (lead) game loads for blasting. If using a #2 through #4 lead shot (not buck....just game shot), you can probably leave it on the "1" setting. (again, my theory about heavier shot and compression for the round vs. lighter crap).

 

Well...food for thought.

 

 

Oh yeah: slugs.

Remmington slugger. Its less expensive compared to Winchester and by far is a better product for shape, charge, and shell support.

Ive tried a few wally world brands for slugs and even some of the more expensive stuff.

Regular hollowpoint Remmington Sluggers will do just fine. In fact, my tightest group using JUST the open "Krebs" sights on my Tromix was using Remmington "buckhammer" slugs (more expensive but damn they are powerful/fast rounds)... 5 shots -and 4 were in a 4 inch group offhand at 25 yards center mass (I jerked one left a little off center -oh well).

 

 

Lastly: Sabot

Yeah I shot them. Although they make every head on the indoor range turn to you with fear (extreme loud boom and NICE NICE flash that lights up the line in comparison to other rounds)....well, no, dont bother with the expensive rounds that serve no purpose in an open cylinder. And you all should know that you NEVER shoot those through chokes right? Stay alive and save the wallet...stick to normal slugs and "shot".

 

 

Hope it helps someone.

 

 

Semper Fi,

~S

Edited March 27, 2007 by whatmanual

[whatmanual 44]

Follow-up:

 

As for the Nobel Sport... I'm going to "tune" a couple of my 10 round mags (heck, Ive got quite a few of them) to angle a little higher and retest those rounds more. Whether that means taking a fraction off the back of the mag itself (where the release catches it) -which would mean the mag tilts the angle that fraction it needs. Or I might try to dremmel those inside guides out inside that mag on the sides a bit and "slight" trim to the clip itself to angle more.

 

Those particular rounds impact on the lower part of the breach and "deform" from being slammed forward. If that resolves it, then I might shoot them again....still, not too confident at all with leaving them a 10 rounder loaded on the shotgun (but if I am successgful with tuning a couple mags, they might make decent secondary magazine changes.

 

Its a tough call really.... Essentially you have to look at the root cause: The round design (end cap) or the magazine fit (angles and smooth feed). You have to find both sweet spots. Once you do, you're set.

 

Range time might not be cheap....but it will save your life some day (if you apply what you learn).

 

 

Semper Fi,

~S

Edited March 27, 2007 by whatmanual

[trukreltrog 8]

I went out today and put 75 rnds of Federal 6 shot thru my AGP mags. Mags worked fine, I must have a picky gun. Got a lot of failures to extract. Some looked as if the bolt never moved. Is it a gas problem? I cleaned it B4 shooting and put the piston back in dry, correct?

[G O B 3,516]

Like all plastic mags, I dissasembeled it , smoothed the follower with 300 grit sanding screen, and lubed it liberally with dry silicone lube, before using.

This may be why I had no trouble with the Nobel ammo.

[whatmanual 44]

I went out today and put 75 rnds of Federal 6 shot thru my AGP mags. Mags worked fine, I must have a picky gun. Got a lot of failures to extract. Some looked as if the bolt never moved. Is it a gas problem? I cleaned it B4 shooting and put the piston back in dry, correct?

 

Sounds like perhaps setting "1" (should be on setting "2" for those in most cases -unless really broken in, or you're lucky).

 

Ok...so you took off both parts (that end cap and popped out that piston as well) correct?

Check and clean the gas ports to the barrel. Use a good brush for it. I personally leave it as dry as possible after cleaning with CLP. You dont need to be making mud in there that will turn as hard as ceramic.

 

If you can visually inspect and see the ports to be clear, and then you can see the "bristles" poke through slightly into the barrel when you press down into them it should be fine. The "real" test for me (and others) is when you put the piston back in, and then screw the cap back on (should go real smooth with fingers. Leave the bolt group out and rock forward and then backwards.....you should hear it "clank clank" back and forth with what feels like no resistance. To me, thats a clean piston.

 

Its been stated before, be sure you press in that button and thread the selector cap all the way you can go = then back it out to the setting you need. People have a habit of clicking it out for each setting change -but never back "in".

 

 

If yours is a very new gun, I would suggest 50 rounds of buck to loosen things up just a little (on "1" setting), and then switch to the "2" setting for those #6 lead shot (Game loads...or Heavy Field loads from Federal).

 

Anyway....sounds like you had it right. I suspect not clean "enough", or not broken in just yet. Took me about 200 with my 1st Saiga (stock). The Tromix was probably 50 to get a good feel on how it would react.

 

 

~S

[trukreltrog 8]

Thank you whatmanual. Now just so I have this right. My gas adjustment when turned all the way in is on #2. So I back it out 1/2 turn to #1, then for setting 2. Do I turn it in or out 1/2 turn for 2 or does it matter? Thanks.

[kresk 10,063]

Thank you whatmanual. Now just so I have this right. My gas adjustment when turned all the way in is on #2. So I back it out 1/2 turn to #1, then for setting 2. Do I turn it in or out 1/2 turn for 2 or does it matter? Thanks.

Turn it back in where it was to resume the #2 setting.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Just a little note to ad about the blind plug screwing in and out "easily".

I have worked on many and have noticed that a few of them had boogered up threads from the factory and were very hard to turn a full turn without siezing. I've had to take a quarter in a pair of vice grips to them to get them to screw in and out. They will go about 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn and sieze on every turn. Not much you can do about it I guess. I use neversieze on the threads on all mine. This helps keep them from getting gunked up and being hard to adjust.

[twinhairdryers 2]

I have done the internal light sanding, dry graphite lubing, and the dremmel trim and polish on the inside guide lips to increase the feed angle on 4 of my AGPs. Now - just need to test them. They all never popped the top round up quick enough , and 3 of 4 would feed low into the bottom of the barrel ridge before these tuner steps. I'll give the final report this weekend. I have at least 50 rounds of pretty much everything you can think of that has always fed well in my gun with 5 and 8 rounders - IE testing ONLY the mag tuning steps.

[G O B 3,516]

+1 on anti-seeze on the blind plug threads. If you have a choke use it on that too.

[keyser223 0]

I had my first opportunity to shoot using my 10 rounder yesterday. As everyone has stated, the Winchester bulk pack shot isn't worth anything, the shells deform instantly upon inserting them in the mag. The Federal bulk shot performed flawlessly and shooting was a blast. My S&B #4 buck showed signs of causing a possible problem but still functioned fine, when loading them into the magazine, the deformed a little bit at the roll crimp and I noticed it allowed the plastic circle that holds the shot in under the crimp to pop out from under the crimp, when I took the shell out to look at it, had I turned it upside down all the shot would have fallen out, it may have been an isolated incident though.