Saiga 223 accuracy. Can it really be THAT BAD????

[Tigerclaw_x 1]

I am trying to educate myself about different 223 rifles before I buy one. I really wanted SAIGA, but when I ask about what accuracy I can expect out of it, nobody gave me an answer for a while.

THen I found out some info. Dunno how correct it it, but if it is correct, then it looks really BAD for Saiga.

AR15 models, AR180B and Kel-Tec SU16B seem to be routeenly capable of 0.75-1.5MOA using 55gr FMJ ammo according to what I hear on different boards. However, the only information I found on SAIGA 223 was that on 100meters it gives groups between 4 and 6 inches with the same 55gr FMJ ammo. Is it really THAT bad??? If so, then it doesn't look good at all for SAIGA and it becomes a case of "you get what you pay for", with SAIGA costing 3 times less then AR180 and having 3 times worse accuracy. Please, help me make an educated decision based on a true information and data.

 

Thank you very much in advance for your help. I am a newbie to Rifles, so I rely on you, the experts to help me make a decision. I want my first 223 rifle to be a good experience.

 

Thank you once again for your patience with my ignorance and your understanding

 

 

D

[dinzag 31]

I can pull 2" groups with fed vshok & black hills brass ammo.

I'm no sharpshooter. That's scoped with 16" barrel.

 

Worse with wolf, but so was my mini-14.

[MD_Willington 11]

Well according to my Ethiopian co-worker who had Russian advisors, the AKM is not a DMR the SVD or similar is the DMR, the practice was to fire as much ammo at the other guys as possible and let the DMR pop them off with single shots.

 

Don't get me wrong, but I'm thinking that you are expecting too much from a simple infantry rifle that was really only meant for ~400 meters use.

 

IIRC even the big guy Mr K himself stated the 7.62x39 was meant for 400m or so.

[Tigerclaw_x 1]

Thank you, Dinzag.

Now, I have at least SOMETHING to work with. I presume that 20" barrel will do better. 2"-3" groups is worse then 0.75"-1.5", but not quite as bad as 4"-6" that I heard of.

I do know that you can't beat SAIGA in reliability though. And thats A LOT

 

D

[kfb2b 0]

Look, do not ake this personally - I am not trying to flame you! Before you get mad, I only ask that you read it thru. Sorry, but You obviously know little of real or practical accuracy.

 

Let me start off by saying that whoever shot the SU-16 at that accuracy level was lying thru thier teeh. I have had 3. I bought one knew, and traded into (and out of) the other 2. NONE were better than 2+MOA (that's almost 2.5" BTW), and that was only under best conditions. Also, several individuals in various mags have stated that the SU-16 that they tested locked up when you got it hot enough. mine never did that, but these were being tested in AZ & TX, so that may be the difference - either way, it is a darned sad commentary for this gun. The mini-14 mentioned by others is not better in accuracy, and both of those guns are the best $300 gun that $400-500 can buy, and that comes from someone who has owned alotta mini's, too. (press me and I'll tell you why you should NEVER use a mini-14 in a life/death situation, as happened to a local law enforment type)

 

The AR15 is just super accurate, and that is due to the incredibly close tolerance hi-quality parts that are now available. it is a a great gun, and even the fraken-gun put-togethers will easily shoot about 1 inch or less, but hold onto to your wallet - I think the price is about $800. So at that price, it better be able to do just that. Get it in the sand soemtime, and you will find that close tolerance is not such a good thing!

 

The AR180B is a good gun, and should be able to shoot about 2MOA, maybe better with a good sight, but is priced much more than a Saiga, and fairly close to the AR in price.

 

So then, the AK was designed to be ultra simple, ultra reliable, and it is. i recently saw footage of South Africa troops that caprtued AK's that were buried without even being wrapped, and had been there a very-very long time. they dug a stock up using a bulldozer, then left the guns out in the rain to allow the dirt to wash off. Using only a cleaning rod to make sure that the bore was safe and clear, and then a judicious amount of WD-40, kick the bolt to break off the rust, and shoot it. Within one mag, they were able to shoot it on full auto - let's see ANY AR do that!!!!!

 

But you did not ask about reliability - you asked about accuracy. Well, it was not built for benchrest accuracy, so please do not expect it to perform that way. however, there have been several and there will be several more upcoming article in Rifle Magazine regarding practical, real-world use accuracy. Sure, the AR can, if you pad it and rest it and do all that stuff just right, shoot those pretty little sub 1-inch groups. But do you actually USE it htat all the time? NO. Do you use it that way hunting varmints or big game? NO. I do find it very curious that 15 years ago,the best hunters that were using rifles as they were intended to be used took game at amazingly long ranges from guns that grouped no better 2MOA, about what a Saiga can do.

 

So the real answer is, it will NEVER shoot as well as an AR. BUT, for the price of one AR, with one mag and no ammo, you can buy & outfit a Saiga, get some mags, buy some ammo, take the wife to dinner for not giving you a hard time about that new gun, and still have a gun that likely shoots as well as you will ever use it in the field.

 

think it over.................

[kfb2b 0]

sorry about the bad spelling.............

[Bad Bob 0]

I want my first 223 rifle to be a good experience.

Just keep in mind what you want to accomplish. In my humble opinion, rifles are like golf clubs. If you want a driver, get something like a .375 Belted Rimless Magnum Nitro Express (.375 H&H to most of us). If you want a putter, get a Ruger 10/22. If you want something in the middle, get something in the middle (and there are a lot of rifles in the middle). If you need a target gun, buy a target gun. If you want an extremely reliable, low-cost rifle based on a proven military design, get that. Accuracy and reliability do not always go together, so think about your own priorities. There's nothing wrong with thinking about what you want, finding out what will make you happy, and going that direction...

 

Good luck, Compadre!

[Tigerclaw_x 1]

Look, do not ake this personally - I am not trying to flame you! Before you get mad, I only ask that you read it thru. Sorry, but You obviously know little of real or practical accuracy.

 

Let me start off by saying that whoever shot the SU-16 at that accuracy level was lying thru thier teeh. I have had 3. I bought one knew, and traded into (and out of) the other 2. NONE were better than 2+MOA (that's almost 2.5" BTW), and that was only under best conditions. Also, several individuals in various mags have stated that the SU-16 that they tested locked up when you got it hot enough. mine never did that, but these were being tested in AZ & TX, so that may be the difference - either way, it is a darned sad commentary for this gun. The mini-14 mentioned by others is not better in accuracy, and both of those guns are the best $300 gun that $400-500 can buy, and that comes from someone who has owned alotta mini's, too. (press me and I'll tell you why you should NEVER use a mini-14 in a life/death situation, as happened to a local law enforment type)

 

The AR15 is just super accurate, and that is due to the incredibly close tolerance hi-quality parts that are now available. it is a a great gun, and even the fraken-gun put-togethers will easily shoot about 1 inch or less, but hold onto to your wallet - I think the price is about $800. So at that price, it better be able to do just that. Get it in the sand soemtime, and you will find that close tolerance is not such a good thing!

 

The AR180B is a good gun, and should be able to shoot about 2MOA, maybe better with a good sight, but is priced much more than a Saiga, and fairly close to the AR in price.

 

So then, the AK was designed to be ultra simple, ultra reliable, and it is. i recently saw footage of South Africa troops that caprtued AK's that were buried without even being wrapped, and had been there a very-very long time. they dug a stock up using a bulldozer, then left the guns out in the rain to allow the dirt to wash off. Using only a cleaning rod to make sure that the bore was safe and clear, and then a judicious amount of WD-40, kick the bolt to break off the rust, and shoot it. Within one mag, they were able to shoot it on full auto - let's see ANY AR do that!!!!!

 

But you did not ask about reliability - you asked about accuracy. Well, it was not built for benchrest accuracy, so please do not expect it to perform that way. however, there have been several and there will be several more upcoming article in Rifle Magazine regarding practical, real-world use accuracy. Sure, the AR can, if you pad it and rest it and do all that stuff just right, shoot those pretty little sub 1-inch groups. But do you actually USE it htat all the time? NO. Do you use it that way hunting varmints or big game? NO. I do find it very curious that 15 years ago,the best hunters that were using rifles as they were intended to be used took game at amazingly long ranges from guns that grouped no better 2MOA, about what a Saiga can do.

 

So the real answer is, it will NEVER shoot as well as an AR. BUT, for the price of one AR, with one mag and no ammo, you can buy & outfit a Saiga, get some mags, buy some ammo, take the wife to dinner for not giving you a hard time about that new gun, and still have a gun that likely shoots as well as you will ever use it in the field.

 

think it over.................

 

Thank you very much:

1) As far as SU-16, I got it from a review by some well known guy. Forgot his name. Besides, I happen to like the hunting style stock, better then I like a pistol handle.

http://www.equipped.org/Kel-Tec_SU-16_Review.htm

Here is another one of the reviews.

2) As far as AR180B, people claim that it is even better then most AR15s. From what I understand, they changed the way it works from AR15. It has a gas piston, similar to SVT and FN-FAL. I, however, am a bit hesitant, since I would like to know exactly just how reliable or not it is. On some reviews people say that it ate everything including steel cased WOLF. On another they said that it is very very picky about mags and ammo.

3) I will DEFINITELY pick up a SAIGA 223. However, I want to see what other good 223 rifles I can get.

[dinzag 31]

Hell my H&R single shot bull barrel will shoot 1.5" groups - get you one of them for $150.

[Skull 0]

At least the Kalashnikov rifles don't shit on themselves like the Stoner rifles.

[vjor 2]

I used to have and old AR18 long ago and far away, it was OK, not accurate like the AR15

but took a lot of abuse and still work, on the other hand the AK take a lot of abuse

and you can still hit enemies in the chest 300 meter away no problemo, ( damn that's not

sporting purpose) no is not a tack driver just and assault rifle that's all.

 

To me if it works any time and any place under real abuse is a good gun, if you need

and armour to fallow you any were any place, I don't think works to good.

 

Hey if you can dish 1400 get the new SIG, if not get a Saiga and cook it the way

you like it.

 

The last two times I hit the range, I have to pull the damn gun smith kit

and can of dry lube to help ar15 owners, still I used to have and bush master

ar15 never give me any problems but have to be clean after shooting it

every time plus some more, my ugly guns (Saigas) they eat anything you dish them

and still dish some more any time any place.

 

And about the kelteck is a good plinking gun as far it goes, but that's all

you going to get from a plinking gun, I will not recommend taking it into

the high country and brutalize it like and AK.

 

 

 

Just my two cents wort of nothing.

 

By the way the CIA used to buy ar18 for the exile Cubans and the IRA used to use them

the IRA and the exile Cubans cant be wrong.

[MadMaxx 0]

AR Guy: I've got 2 grand worth of polyvinyglockalmethalateuber tactical gear. I can put 3 holes within a 1" spacing in that silhouette bad guy in front of that wall over there, 100 yards a way.

 

AK Guy: I've got 50$ worth of old wood furniture. I can put 3 holes in that same silhouette enough to kill him, go through the wall, and hit his buddy on the other side.

 

 

I think the Saiga gets an inherent bad rap from all the old AK47 accuracy complaints. In all actuality, the weapon does VERY well for the price point. If you are looking for ultra-high precision, this isn't the weapon of choice by any means. I tend to lean towards a weapon that is not only fun to shoot, but can be useful in a real-world situation. It's not often I worry about hitting a bad guy within an inch of grouping

[kfb2b 0]

The AR180 is not a bad design at all. Basically, Stoner redesigned the AR15 and came up with it. i might be wrong, but I think that the H&K 416 and the LWR rifle are basically just a small variation of this gas system in the M16 platform. Problem is, the current AR180/18/whtever lack the long dvelopment line that the AR's have had, making them less accurate. Good guns just the same, but like I say, they are so dang close to the AR15 in price, you might as well buy the AR.

 

Like someone else said, get a Saiga and cook it the way you like it. Heck, at that price, you can get a Saiga, some mags, A NEF or Stevens bolt gun, a cheap scope, and still a small qty. of ammo for the price of one AR15

[loki0629 55]

Thank you very much in advance for your help. I am a newbie to Rifles, so I rely on you, the experts to help me make a decision. I want my first 223 rifle to be a good experience.

 

D

 

Tigerclaw,

If you have not had much experience with the .223 round you may want to take some time to ask yourself what exactly is it you want the rifle for?

If target shooting is your thing by all means go ahead and get the AR. I think you will be very happy with its accuracy and it will function well as long as it is properly maintained. In a pinch it will do as a defensive weapon as long as you employ it within the limitations of that round.

 

Having said that, let me tell you why I bought a Saiga (16" barrel, skeleton stock, .308 winchester). It's primary purpose is for defense.

 

1) Reliability - I wanted a weapon that will function EVERY time.

2) I chose the .308 caliber because my experience in war is that the .223 is a very good varmint round and should remain used for that purpose. I stopped training my guys to shoot center mass and trained them to shoot low to hopefully break the pelvic bones with the .223 or major organs.

3) Reliability - I wanted a weapon that will function EVERY time. I can not stress how important reliability is in a defensive situation.

 

I didn't factor in accuracy as a reason because honestly, it's not going to matter much when the SHTF. Unless there is something very very very wrong with the weapon, it is more than accurate enough. Under stress I know that I can put 3 rounds into a target within 300m using iron sights. In ranges under 100m somebody is going to go down with each trigger pull. The .308 brings you a lot closer to "1 shot = 1 kill" than the .223.

 

The only reason I can think of employing a weapon in this manner stateside is a Katrina or LA riot type situation. I took a good amount of time reading JWarren's post and what he went through after Katrina before settling on the .308. I really hope that something like that never happens again but if it did I plan on being able to defend myself and my family. I have a handgun (.45) and I have a shotgun (12GA) but those are primarily close-in tools.

 

Good luck in making your decision.

[Tigerclaw_x 1]

Thank you for reply. No, I have NOT have much experience with 223. Shot it few times 5.56x45 NATO. Liked low recoil. You see, the .308 are pretty expensive. As are 6.5 grendell and 6.8 SPC. No semi auto weapon is made for 6.5 Sweedish or 6.5 Arisaka. Nothing is made for 243 Rem except yet another AR15, which is what I am trying to avoid.

7.62x39 is not inherintly accurate, pretty much same as 30-30. 7.62x51NATO is getting pretty expensive. So, that leaves only 5.56x45NATO.

Now, this leaves several rifles available for me:

AR15 - which I will try to avoid. For the same money, I can buy Vector Arms V-93 - a clone of HK33. What AR has is heavy target barrels, which is unavailable for V-93

V-93 itself - my dream gun. BUt expensive. I am a HUGE fan of roller block delayed blowback system.

Saiga 223 - very cheap, but I just want to make sure it has descent accuracy. Thats what I was asking about. I need Not a tack driver, but a rifle good enough for head shots at 300m (Something like TAVOR).

AR180 - it has the same system as FN-FAL and SVT 40. Accurate and in theory at least reliable.

Kel-Tec SU16. Same system as FN-FAL and SVT 40. Accurate, and in theory reliable, but just how good is it really? How tough is it?

Yes, SIG556. Just how good is it? I mean we have the same: gas piston + rotating locking bolt. The same as AK-47 system. Can't possibly be that much better then Valmet.

Mak-90 in 5.56. A definite possibility.

Vepr K in 5.56. Hard to find probably an ideal gun for me.

Daewoo DR200. Heard GREAT things about it. Held it. Shot it. LOVED IT. Too bad getting spare parts will be a PITA!! Otherwise I would have picked it up already.

 

So, there you have it. 5.56x45 is a caliber I chose out of nesessity. Surely, I would preffere to have a PTR-91 for SHTF situation. However, the cost of the gun and ammo made this choice an unwise one

Edited April 5, 2007 by Tigerclaw_x

[loki0629 55]

Saiga 223 - very cheap, but I just want to make sure it has descent accuracy. Not a tack driver, but good enough for head shots at 300m (like TAVOR).

 

So, there you have it. 5.56x45 is a caliber I chose out of nesessity. Surely, I would preffere to have a PTR-91 for SHTF situation. However, the cost of the gun and ammo made this choice an unwise one

 

Tigerclaw,

The Saiga can pull off head shots at that range with the .223, with the iron sights (depending on your own ability) or with the help of a low power scope.

I really don't think you can go wrong with this choice, especially if money is a limiting factor. You will be fine with a stock weapon and upgrade as you are able. A mount and scope was the first upgrade I bought for my .308. I've recently ordered a quick-cuff sling and I'll be curious to see how that works out. I'm probably going to have to make some alterations to the stock to use the sling but we'll see.

 

I am not interested in doing a pistol grip conversion but may opt to do so if I want to improve the trigger. For the Saiga .223 I believe BattleRifleG3 has drop in replacement fire control groups (no pistol grip conversion required).

 

These are just a few suggestions to point out that there are ways to make it more accurate.

 

FYI I was about to buy a JLD PTR-91 before I ran across the Saigas. I really really REALLY wanted that weapon but the $1400 price tag was a bit much.

 

You are right about the ammo situation but there are ways around that. Look for bulk sales (e.g. midway) or look into reloading. I'm noticing that the price for .223 is also starting to creep up.

[Tigerclaw_x 1]

Saiga 223 - very cheap, but I just want to make sure it has descent accuracy. Not a tack driver, but good enough for head shots at 300m (like TAVOR).

 

So, there you have it. 5.56x45 is a caliber I chose out of nesessity. Surely, I would preffere to have a PTR-91 for SHTF situation. However, the cost of the gun and ammo made this choice an unwise one

 

Tigerclaw,

The Saiga can pull off head shots at that range with the .223, with the iron sights (depending on your own ability) or with the help of a low power scope.

I really don't think you can go wrong with this choice, especially if money is a limiting factor. You will be fine with a stock weapon and upgrade as you are able. A mount and scope was the first upgrade I bought for my .308. I've recently ordered a quick-cuff sling and I'll be curious to see how that works out. I'm probably going to have to make some alterations to the stock to use the sling but we'll see.

 

I am not interested in doing a pistol grip conversion but may opt to do so if I want to improve the trigger. For the Saiga .223 I believe BattleRifleG3 has drop in replacement fire control groups (no pistol grip conversion required).

 

These are just a few suggestions to point out that there are ways to make it more accurate.

 

FYI I was about to buy a JLD PTR-91 before I ran across the Saigas. I really really REALLY wanted that weapon but the $1400 price tag was a bit much.

 

You are right about the ammo situation but there are ways around that. Look for bulk sales (e.g. midway) or look into reloading. I'm noticing that the price for .223 is also starting to creep up.

 

For my 7.62x39 I have picked up a Norinco Hunter. The reason why I chose it over Saiga is simple: Milled Stock & high capacity mag capability. I paid 350 for it. I get the same 21" barrel, same "non assault rifle" look that I want.

As far as SAIGA. I am pretty sure that 1mm stamped receiver of saiga is not strong enough to handle the recoil of 7.62x51 cartrige. You would need an RPK receiver for this (VEPR).

Just think of it. What kind of receiver do similar weapons have: Yugo M76 Sniper, SVD, Tigr hunting rifle, Medved'-3 (Bear 3) hunting rifle.

I dunno what kind of PTR-91 you were going to pick up, but my dealer quoted me the price of 875 bucks for the basic F model (and I do not need anything else).

I am also looking at the CETME rifle. Price is good. Probably will pick it up this summer, if I can find one in a good shape.

For 223, there are quite a few things available. In addition to what I mentioned, there is also a CENTURY ARMS GOLANI rifle. With 22 inch barrel. I dunno the price of it, I also dunno on what receiver was it built.

Obviously, if they built it on 1mm stamped receiver, I am not getting one.

I do want to say that Daewoo DR200 looks DAMN good. I wish there was a source of replacement barrels and other parts for it. I would pick it up YESTERDAY.

I will wait for GOLANI to come out and then make a final decision. However, I fully intend to pick up both, SAIGA 223 and Vector Arms V-93. (Probably will ask my wife to give me V-93 as a B-day present).

 

D

[Bad Bob 0]

( damn that's not sporting purpose) ...my ugly guns (Saigas) they eat anything you dish them

and still dish some more any time any place.

A word to the wise.

 

Period...

[devildog1122 0]

This is just my opinion. When one decide to purchase a rifle, he/she should consider the following questions:

 

1) How much money you have to spend?

2) What caliber you are going to shoot?

3) What are you going to to do with this rifle? hunting, target shooting, plinking, etc......

4) Reliability

5) Most of all, do you like the rifle?

 

A rifle should shoot any type of ammo under any condition and the only rifle that does that is the AK style rifle. Yes, will take the Saiga to war over the AR any time any place.

[Unknown Poster 5]

My saiga 16" barreled in 308 will shoot 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds benchrested with south african 308 ball ammo. My saiga in 223 using russian wolf ammo seems to shoot the same sized groups but we haven't benchrested it yet I'm pinging small rocks on the berm @ 100yds and testing the cycling and functioning of the rifle. On paper hand held just playing i'm under 3" groups so i'm sure it will shoot the same groups as my 308 does too.

 

You can't compare these to the other black rifles because these function and cycle correctly and have the reliability and dependability of an AK47 which they are. The quality of the russian izhmash rifles is hard to beat the ak47 has been battle proven around the world in any climate. There's no other rifle that comes close to it in comparson. My saiga in 223 only cost me $259.

 

If i purchased the saiga 25 years ago there would only be saiga's in my gun safe for sure the saiga is a shooter and all the other military stuff are collectables.(my modern hunting guns too they sit in the safe and grow roots now i use the saiga's only most of the time)

 

Lets see I can buy how many saiga's to the cost of one AR?

Edited April 6, 2007 by Unknown Poster

[Tigerclaw_x 1]

This is just my opinion. When one decide to purchase a rifle, he/she should consider the following questions:

 

1) How much money you have to spend?

2) What caliber you are going to shoot?

3) What are you going to to do with this rifle? hunting, target shooting, plinking, etc......

4) Reliability

5) Most of all, do you like the rifle?

 

A rifle should shoot any type of ammo under any condition and the only rifle that does that is the AK style rifle. Yes, will take the Saiga to war over the AR any time any place.

 

1) As little as possible.

2) 5.56x45 NATO and .223

3) Plinking, target shooting, Self defence.

4) As reliable as possible.

5) Saiga? Yeah, I like how it looks and handles. Though I can say the same about V-93, DAEWOO DR200, AR-180B and Kel-Tec SU-16.

[mtngunr 0]

Pardon my saying so, but you have unrealistic expectations of military weapons....Uncle expects an issue M16/M4 using issue ammo to shoot at best 3rds into 2cm at 25m, worst case 3cm, with all 3rd groups into 4cm....this translates into 48cm at 300m, hardly headshot guaranteed.....my .223 AK easily meets that standard, as will most.....just like Uncle taught me years ago, if I can keep all shots inside 10"-12" at 300yds, all my shots are hitting within 5"-6" of where I am aiming, and that makes me dangerous......and just a reminder, the KelTec and AR180B are major plastic component guns, while the Saiga is not......personally, I never have felt comfy about paying more for a plastic gun than a steel gun costs.....

Edited April 7, 2007 by mtngunr

[MRW 0]

I had my 223 Saiga out today and was getting 2MOA using Guatamalan surplus ammo. I had a 4x scope and was shooting about 0.75 inch at 50 yards off a bench when I rally did my part. Snap shots were about 1-1.25.

 

A Saiga has a chrome lined 1/9 twist 556 chambered barrel and is semi-auto for around $300. What more could you ask for?

 

(20 round factory mags? okay, what else?)