AKATTACK 5 Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) Hey guys!!! Found some GREAT info!!! Found this on Soupbowl Enterprise's Website, it's an ATF letter concerning parts count on the Saiga 12 shotgun. It's designated as gun "H" on the right side of the letter. Notice that the trunion isn't counted on a Saiga shotgun, I wonder why not. Also, read the footnotes on the second table, they explain why the pistol grip is counted on the Saiga. The second table is set up to show how many parts were counted AFTER the conversion was made to each firearm. OK everyone, lets hear your 2 cents worth, I think this list contains some great info!! Click here to see the letter. Hopes this answers some questions!! AKATTACK Edited September 7, 2004 by AKATTACK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
make a saiga 12 drum! 0 Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 So whats that load of crap mean? Can I get a saiga12 with a pistol grip after the 13th? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKATTACK 5 Posted September 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) Stick around, you'll figure it out. You should be able to convert a Saiga 12 or pay someone to convert it to pistol grip configuration for you, but you probably won't see any available from the importer, only sporting arms are available from Russia and this means non-pistol gripped models. So get your parts and get ready to get to work, the sun is going down and you don't want to get caught in the dark!! AKATTACK Edited September 7, 2004 by AKATTACK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
make a saiga 12 drum! 0 Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) I want to file a form1 and have one cut down like the showtime gun, only less colorful... all black. Thinking about having showtime engraved in the side of it. found the guys who made it, maybe i'll give um a call and fnd out how much the conversion will cost + $200 making tax. GIBBONS LTD. ENTERTAINMENT ARMORY, 2911 Winona Avenue., Burbank, CA 91504. - (818) 566-4253 / Fax: (818) 566-1235 Huge inventory, all types of weapons, past, present & future. "From Rocks To Rockets!" Edited September 7, 2004 by make a saiga 12 drum! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) Make a saiga 12 drum: That "crap" up there shows what the ATF recognizes as foreign "imported" parts. The 922r law they refer to states that firearms with less than 10 imported parts are exempt from the ban on imported rifles. The list of parts shows 13 (pistol grip doesn't come with the saiga) foreign parts, of which you must replace at least 3 and add a US pistol grip. That'll give you 9 imported parts remaining and make your gun 922r compliant. AKATTACK: I wish they'd import saiga shotguns with thumbhole stocks, that'd make our conversions alot easier! Secondly, has anyone here figured out if regular AK FCG parts will function in the S-12???!?!?!?! Edited September 7, 2004 by KySoldier Quote Link to post Share on other sites
drooling idiot 1 Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 thats a great link! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shotgun_lobotomy 0 Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 so change 5 of those parts for usa made and ur cool right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ARRH86 0 Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Ok... please help me understand. Can I simply replace the stock after the 13th with a pistol gripped stock? Please help. Thanks, Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 5 parts and you should be cool. as i said in another thread, im waiting to make damn sure the AWB expires and the ATF site is upto date on it before giving myself a mild stroke re-reading thier friggin laws. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKATTACK 5 Posted September 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 (edited) Where are you guys getting that you have to replace 5 parts to be legal? Look at the list, it indicates that the Saigas are composed of 13 imported parts. I'm still not sure about the parts count not including the trunions, but they didn't include them. So lets go thru the parts and number them: #1:Receiver #2:Barrel #3:Bolt #4:Bolt Carrier #5:Gas Piston #6:Trigger #7:Hammer #8:Disconnector #9:Buttstock #10:Forearm #11:Mag Body #12:Mag Follower #13:Mag Floor Plate Remember, at the time of importation, without the pistol grip, these are all foreign parts. To be able to configure the firearm to pistol grip, we can only use 10 imported parts, the rest we have to substitue or add U.S. made parts. So here we go, I'll list one such possibility of parts substitution, with the current selection of parts, this is about the only possibility there is. #1:Receiver-foreign part #2:Barrel-foreign part #3:Bolt-foreign part #4:Bolt Carrier-foreign part #5:Gas Piston-foreign part #6:Forearm-foreign part #7:Mag Body-foreign part #8:Mag Follower-foreign part #9:Mag Floor Plate-foreign part Now this leaves one more foreign part on "the list" that we can have that can be foreign. Let's add the folding Russian stock! #10:Original Folding Russian Stock-foreign part Now we are at the limit and have to finish the gun using the U.S. made parts: #11:Trigger-U.S. made #12:Hammer-U.S. made #13:Disconnector-U.S. made #14:Pistol Grip-U.S. made This is why they are showing the gun composed of 14 parts in the table. Read the footnotes that refer to the table in the second part of the letter. When the pistol grip was added, it raised to TOTAL number of parts to 14, but as long as the pistol grip is U.S. made, it doesn't raise the IMPORTED parts number, and that is what is stated in the Law:Section 922r, or the "parts count law of 1989". You can add any other part on the list, such as a "muzzle attachment" and as long as it was a U.S. made muzzle attachment, it is O.K., as you have increased the TOTAL number of parts of the gun to 15 , but the IMPORTED parts STILL would only be 10 parts. Everyone understand this? AKATTACK Edited September 11, 2004 by AKATTACK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Good stuff, great find AKATTACK. I'm thinking that I might use my one extra freebie part on the sight tower on Russian models (see vladamir's pic, or others). Does anyone know if this would count as a "muzzle attachment"? or BBL extension? Seems like it would not, but I don't want to mix common sense in with our gun laws Anyone point me to a source of Russian folders? Maybe I'll change my mind/or the sight will not count. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKATTACK 5 Posted September 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 (edited) Tantal's is a great source for Russian Parts. He's gotten great reviews on AK-47.net for being a 100% reliable guy to purchase from. Here's a link to the part of his site that shows the Russian furniture, it's not cheap, but it's the real stuff:Tantal's . Don't forget to scroll to the bottom and return all the way out to the home page, but be warned, there's LOTS of eyecandy on his website!!! He handles optics, magazines, and Russian web gear, etc. You'll have to e-mail him to get prices. Hope this helps!! AKATTACK Editted to add: He's located in Texas, so the parts are already in the U.S. if he has them in stock!! Edited September 8, 2004 by AKATTACK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hartzpad 0 Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 I never thought about doing this before, but why don't we ask Tantal if he can get us some Saiga 12 parts like muzzle devices, compensators, front sights and maybe some magazines? He does do great business. Maybe we should start a thread to show him how much demand there is for those parts here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
inparidel 4 Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Guys: Get the 5 parts out of your head. You have to add 5 US parts to the typical AK rifle. According to the "Chief of Firearms Technology" at the BATFE in the letter, there are 12 Saiga parts from the BATFE master list (13 if you have a muzzle attachment, I guess). Regardless, to be in compliance with daddy Bush's EO '89 import ban, you need to replace only as many that leaves you with 10 foreign parts. That means 3 parts if you have 13 foreign, or 2 parts if you have 12 foreign, etc. The "Chief" clearly states that the Saiga Shotgun has 12 parts. I am at a complete loss why the guy who organized these tables felt like he needs to correct the Chief and state that the Saiga has 14 foreign parts from the master list. When you get a horse for a present, leave it's mouth alone, if you know what I mean. I am VERY happy about that letter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKATTACK 5 Posted September 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 inparidel, where did you get that the Saiga shotgun is only made up of 12 parts??? It clearly shows 13 parts on that letter. Count them again and reference the part numbers of the Saiga shotgun with the master list of the letter, it clearly shows that the muzzle attachment is NOT counted. This might be explained by the fact that the letter was written in 1997 and I'm not sure that Saigas with threaded muzzles were being imported then. And I mentioned the fact that the "table" that the people at soupbowl included shows the TOTAL number of parts that the gun consists of AFTER the conversion. Check the footnotes below the table. They didn't "correct" the chief's list, they just showed a parts count AFTER the conversion would have been done. AKATTACK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
USMC_LB 4 Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 AKATTACK is correct, it definitely shows that the Saiga IS 13 parts, not 12. Once the AWB sunsets you may change these items in your Saiga shotgun and you will be 100% legal in regards to 922® the "10 or less imported parts" ban: 1) trigger 2) disconnect 3) hammer This IS a incredible find !!!!!!!!! Thank you AKATTACK! I just wished you had found it alot sooner...... been a whole lot of debating on this here issue. It is too funny that this has been around since 1997..... just glad we know about it now ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Wouldn't it be easier to change out the mag follower mag floorplate buttstock I can make those items. (I do realize using other 100% foriegn mags would be illegal) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKATTACK 5 Posted September 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 USMC_LB, the funny thing is that I had Soupbowl's website in my "favorites" folder for a LONG time. LOL I had been thinking about posting this link, which shows how their AK conversions are configured, because everyone was arguing about the parts count. Click here to see the site concerning Soupbowl's list of their converted rifle's parts. Then when I went to their site and noticed the letter concerning the Saiga Shotgun parts, I couldn't wait to post it for everyone!! I would recommend that everyone to "save as" this letter and make a few copies, not sure if it would help in the future, but it certainly wouldn't hurt. I'm glad that it helped everyone. The next few weeks are really gonna be interesting. AKATTACK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
USMC_LB 4 Posted September 9, 2004 Report Share Posted September 9, 2004 Wouldn't it be easier to change out the mag follower mag floorplate buttstock I can make those items. (I do realize using other 100% foriegn mags would be illegal) If you are going to convert to a pistol grip you have to move the tigger forward to the "common" position on most AK style firearms and you CANNOT use the original "sporting" hammer, trigger & disconnect.... they are completely different than a real AK style FCG ( fire control group ) As far as the mag is concerned I would have no problem replacing the FLOORPLATE but I would defintely not want to screw with the FOLLOWER. It would be real easy to brgin to have alot of feeding problems.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 USMC_LB: OK, I hadn't looked closely to see if the original parts were salvagable. I'll be ordering my parts soon. Probably do the ACE skeleton folder with an FAL grip. Is there anything I should know about fitting these parts to the receiver? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 KySoldier: you know what? Im wondering what the changes are for the preban folders myself are. i see on some reciever templates taht the folders have a different template, and im wondering if that is all for the particular model of AK im looking to build up from a parts kit. wondering if its for all folders and if its the same thing and all that nice jazz. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tomme boy 0 Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 On the 20 ga. version, you can use the original hammer, disconect. You just have to use a trigger that has the larger pin hole. Reuse the sleeve from the original and install. One thing you might want to get is a new shepards hook. You might have to open up the hole for the grip also. The wedge for the grip is too big. I can't wait. I have all walnut wood that I carved for mine. Buttstock, grip, forearm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
36fan 0 Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 Now we are at the limit and have to finish the gun using the U.S. made parts:#11:Trigger-U.S. made #12:Hammer-U.S. made #13:Disconnector-U.S. made #14:Pistol Grip-U.S. made Any tips on where/the best place to find these parts? Thanks, 36 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 You can find them alot of places like www.k-varcorp.com www.tapco.com www.aceltdusa.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Hey guys, im scared to death of working on my saiga-12 you know anyplace in indiana or close to indiana (US) that would do the PG convertion if i supplied the parts, and around what price would it be? $0-$500? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sleepnosis 0 Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 A reply from AZexarms.com date: 9/11/2004 "300 for relocating the trigger guard, milling for PG attachment, and installing US parts. Includes complete refinish in Parkote. and return ship. customer provides all parts. " The additional cost will have to do for the S-12, but for the rifles... The price is next to a new Vepr. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 mephis: read your states gun legislation before you do anything to it. you might be affected by local laws prohibiting that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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