Saiga Dimpled Receiver w/ Y stamp

[grimper 0]

Nice rare saiga receiver you have there just that it is classified as a machine gun with that 3rd hole no matter if its pinned or welded. ATF may want to have it demilled.

I aslo saw something about some MAK 90s that had the evil 3rd hole on another forum.

 

"Over the years I have seen many people ask about the Chinese MAK-90 rifles that came into the country in the early 90s, and were subsequently "collected" by the BATFE.

 

Special thanks to "Dutchkma" and his personal first-hand experience with one of the "special" rifles. These pictures are probably the only ones in existence which closely detail the specifications.

 

These MAK-90 rifles were declared "contraband" by the the BATFE because of the third pin hole in the receiver. Even though they had a rivit installed in the third hole, they are still contraband because of the third hole. "Once a machinegun, always a machinegun."

 

I actually handled one of these back in Colorado Springs, Colorado at the local gunshow and a dealer friend of mine said to stay away from them because they were "ATF Bait."

 

If you run across one of these rifles for sale.....admire it.....handle it......but don't buy it. There is no way it will ever be legal to own.

Are you saying this is an illegal gun??? How can that be since it came from Saiga like this and RAA stamped their name on it? Shouldn't RAA have caught that?

 

 

 

Since it looks more like a rivet than a takedown pin I think it might mean dont put an auto-sear pin here this is a SA .

 

I want to make it clear that I am not interested in the FA features in anyway I just like the authenticity/look of the dimples and y stamp.

 

To go FA would be

1. really really bad w/o a class3

2. Would require a new FCG(trig,ham, rate reducer,auto sear,etc)

3. modifications to the rails on the reciever(not reversible)

4. FA bolt carrier and bolt.

5. Additional Modifications

 

FYI to all who noticed : hey I can just file down my disconnector and I 'd have FA What you will get is an OOB discharge and a nice hospital bill. This is why the real deal employs a rate reducer.

 

If you want FA - Join the Army! In fact if you sign up for rapid deployment right now, you will get up to $40k, an M4 and ppl to use it on. that sign up bonus buys a lot of Saigas and conversion parts. Plus once you get to the sandbox, I am sure you will have your pick of the litter on surplus AK parts lying around on dead insurgents and from the stashes you will raid.

 

Sorry for the tangent, I just needed to point it out, in case some newb reads this thread and thinks FA w/o class3 is cool. I dont want to F it up for anyone. Keep it legal and if you really want the rush of FA learn to bump fire from your shoulder. We have enough ppl(anti-gun) against us , we dont our own kind bringing us down!

Since it looks more like a rivet than a takedown pin I think it might mean dont put an auto-sear pin here this is a SA .

It's NOT a take-down pin, it's a permanent riveted pin.

 

 

I want to make it clear that I am not interested in the FA features in anyway I just like the authenticity/look of the dimples and y stamp.

 

To go FA would be

1. really really bad w/o a class3

2. Would require a new FCG(trig,ham, rate reducer,auto sear,etc)

3. modifications to the rails on the reciever(not reversible)

4. FA bolt carrier and bolt.

5. Additional Modifications

 

FYI to all who noticed : hey I can just file down my disconnector and I 'd have FA What you will get is an OOB discharge and a nice hospital bill. This is why the real deal employs a rate reducer.

 

If you want FA - Join the Army! In fact if you sign up for rapid deployment right now, you will get up to $40k, an M4 and ppl to use it on. that sign up bonus buys a lot of Saigas and conversion parts. Plus once you get to the sandbox, I am sure you will have your pick of the litter on surplus AK parts lying around on dead insurgents and from the stashes you will raid.

 

Sorry for the tangent, I just needed to point it out, in case some newb reads this thread and thinks FA w/o class3 is cool. I dont want to F it up for anyone. Keep it legal and if you really want the rush of FA learn to bump fire from your shoulder. We have enough ppl(anti-gun) against us , we dont our own kind bringing us down!

I understand what you're saying about the FA issue and I agree with you, but I think there's some confusion here. I'm NOT trying to bring anybody down! All I want is to do the standard conversion like many of you here have done. NOTHING full auto, NOTHING illegal!!!

 

Now that we're clear, is there a problem with this Saiga???

 

This is EXACTLY how it came from the factory. I have done nothing to it, and as far as I can tell, nobody else has either.

 

Does a riveted pin through the Y stamp make it illegal?

How did it slip through RAA?

 

 

Thanks for your help guys,

Matt

 

Matt,

 

I didnt mean to insinuate you wanted FA, or flame you in anyway it was more a reply for the newbs. The whole army comment was not inteded for you but I see now how it could have been misconstrued. In the future I will be more specific. I want to encourage others I am not here to bash ppl.

 

As for the legality question , I dont know. for your sake I hope not. I wrote RAA but havent got a reply yet I will let you know. Do you know what year your saiga is? 06, 07?

Edited December 13, 2007 by girmper

[Bvamp 604]

the year is located just forward of your dimple on the scope rail side, and (i thought) was also the first two digits of your serial number, but Im not so sure about that with all saigas.

 

the number you want is the stamped two-digit number underneath the oval symbol with the arrow in it, and two sideways "M" 's . It can be found as the first symbol forward of your scope rail, or in your case, your dimple. I cannot make it out in your picture.

 

Also, you should contact RAA and see if they will exchange your gun if there is an issue with the plugged Y. I think there is, you should definately look into it, and see if RAA can replace it with one without a pin in it that also has dimples.

 

I am also wondering some information on the new s12's that just came in as well, in another thread.

[Superhawk138 202]

Yeah I strongly agree with Bvamp about contacting the importer RAA about it. A 3rd axis pin hole left open, pinned, welded then ground smooth still constitutes a "Machinegun" receiver even after that hole is permantly plugged. It was probaly never destined to reach the states and fell through the cracks at customs like the MAK 90s did and the batch of S-12s that had a BBL of 17.5". I wonder if it is some sort of supply and demand problem that they decomission machineguns for export.

Edited December 13, 2007 by Superhawk138

[Bvamp 604]

I believe some of the SAR1's had this issue as well, once upon a time. My sar1 has the Y stamp, no hole.

[Cool4x4Guy 0]

Matt,

 

I didnt mean to insinuate you wanted FA, or flame you in anyway it was more a reply for the newbs. The whole army comment was not inteded for you but I see now how it could have been misconstrued. In the future I will be more specific. I want to encourage others I am not here to bash ppl.

No problem. I thought that was the case, but I just wanted to make sure I was clear.

 

 

As for the legality question , I dont know. for your sake I hope not. I wrote RAA but havent got a reply yet I will let you know. Do you know what year your saiga is? 06, 07?

Thanks!

 

the year is located just forward of your dimple on the scope rail side, and (i thought) was also the first two digits of your serial number, but Im not so sure about that with all saigas.

 

the number you want is the stamped two-digit number underneath the oval symbol with the arrow in it, and two sideways "M" 's . It can be found as the first symbol forward of your scope rail, or in your case, your dimple. I cannot make it out in your picture.

 

Also, you should contact RAA and see if they will exchange your gun if there is an issue with the plugged Y. I think there is, you should definately look into it, and see if RAA can replace it with one without a pin in it that also has dimples.

 

I am also wondering some information on the new s12's that just came in as well, in another thread.

It's an '06

 

Yeah I strongly agree with Bvamp about contacting the importer RAA about it. A 3rd axis pin hole left open, pinned, welded then ground smooth still constitutes a "Machinegun" receiver even after that hole is permantly plugged. It was probaly never destined to reach the states and fell through the cracks at customs like the MAK 90s did and the batch of S-12s that had a BBL of 17.5". I wonder if it is some sort of supply and demand problem that they decomission machineguns for export.

So dimples and a Y stamp are legal, but a Y stamp with a hole in it is not? If I need to get RAA to replace it, what kind of receiver do I ask for?

 

Where can I look/Who can I contact to find out for certain, 100%, if this 3rd hole is legal or not?

 

Can this gun be made legal if I applied for a Class III permit for it? I know there's an issue about some parts having to be pre-'86, but I don't know enough about that stuff.

 

I'll gather up my receipts and stuff and contact RAA as soon as I can.

 

Thanks for all your help guys, this a heckuva thing to have to deal with in my first 5 posts!

 

 

Thanks,

Matt

[Cool4x4Guy 0]

I just sent an email to RAA.

[Cool4x4Guy 0]

Good news!

 

I got a reply back from RAA, and they said that this rifle is perfectly legal. It was never a 'machine gun' because it went straight to the civilian market. Because of this, the extra hole is legal. They said they will send me the ATF regulations that apply to this so I can be sure.

 

Whew! Now that that's over, I can get back to doing the conversion.

 

Matt

[Superhawk138 202]

Good news!

 

I got a reply back from RAA, and they said that this rifle is perfectly legal. It was never a 'machine gun' because it went straight to the civilian market. Because of this, the extra hole is legal. They said they will send me the ATF regulations that apply to this so I can be sure.

 

Whew! Now that that's over, I can get back to doing the conversion.

 

Matt

 

Cool thats awesome then if they can back it with ATF approval, That would probally make your saiga the most unique one on the site.

[Superhawk138 202]

I dug up some pictures of some saiga "sporters" with the 3rd auto sear hole in place. I wonder if cool4x4's came from this batch

[scoutjoe 276]

They said they will send me the ATF regulations that apply to this so I can be sure.

 

Whew! Now that that's over, I can get back to doing the conversion.

 

Matt

 

Make sure you get that, since its your ass hanging out in the wind at this point. I can't imagine RAA is setting you up to be screwed, they've been very helpful so far (not just with you).

[micah360 6]

Good news!

 

I got a reply back from RAA, and they said that this rifle is perfectly legal. It was never a 'machine gun' because it went straight to the civilian market. Because of this, the extra hole is legal. They said they will send me the ATF regulations that apply to this so I can be sure.

 

Whew! Now that that's over, I can get back to doing the conversion.

 

Matt

 

That'll be a sweet one for sure!

[SaigaNoobie 66]

Just a thought. If it is a super rare version, why not put it up for sale? I mean, if it's not a big deal to you, you could probably make money on the deal and lord knows you can get a NIB x39 for 260 + Shipping. Someone might pay some extra cash for your 3rd hole. You'd have enough to do your conversion and have money left over.

 

Just a thought.

[scoutjoe 276]

Someone might pay some extra cash for your 3rd hole.

sounds kinda dirty

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Someone might pay some extra cash for your 3rd hole.

sounds kinda dirty

 

Definitely sounds dirty. But it makes sense, I mean, most women won't let you go to the third hole, so maybe some extra cash will sway their decision.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

when i wrote it i knew you'd catch on that it had a second, dirty meaning

[scoutjoe 276]

when i wrote it i knew you'd catch on that it had a second, dirty meaning

who me?

 

I have no idea what you're talking about

[xcibes 0]

Does anyone know where I can purchase a NIB Saiga in 7.62 with the dimples and the Y stamp?

 

Also can anyone confirm that the 20" saigas from RAA have the dimples. All of the pics I have seen for RAA sagias in 7.62 show no dimples on the 16" but do show dimples and y stamp on the 20". Since these are web photos I realize they may not be accurate so I trying to get some validation. I live in the PRK (kalifonria) and most dealers here in the OC wont even discuss Saigas, no less sell or stock them. I had to use a FFL about 80 miles away for my last purchase but they only have 16" with no dimples in stock.

 

Check out these links

with Dimples

 

Without

 

Without Dimples

 

 

BOTH 16" and 20" RAA Saigas come with dimples and also with the extra "Y" I have them both. Also some .223 come with dimples. I have not seen any with the extra "Y" but I don't see why there could not be any.

[Azrial 1,091]

.....Now that we're clear, is there a problem with this Saiga???

 

This is EXACTLY how it came from the factory. I have done nothing to it, and as far as I can tell, nobody else has either.

 

Does a riveted pin through the Y stamp make it illegal?

How did it slip through RAA?.......

 

YES.

It does not matter if it came from the factory like that or not. The BATF regards it as a mistake that it got into the country with that pin hole and it is considered a machine gun. It does not matter if the other parts are present or that the internal cuts are in place. It does not matter if there is a pin or rivet, or even if you weld over the hole. It is still a machine gun, even if it will not run full auto in present form.

 

My advice is to return it to the dealer where you bought it or maybe contact RAA and see if they will make it right.

Sorry for the bad news. HTH.

Edited December 23, 2007 by Azrial

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

There was one on the table at the local gunshow just yesterday with the pinned third hole.

 

I've also seen them at the show that supposedly came from the importer with a 30 rd mag. I don't trust what anyone tells me at a gunshow but I do listen to what the importer says.

 

I guess Clyde doesn't know what he's talking about? Is that what you are saying? Maybe you should tell him that yourself.

[Azrial 1,091]

......I guess Clyde doesn't know what he's talking about? Is that what you are saying? Maybe you should tell him that yourself.

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that RAA (Clyde?) has claimed that there is no problem with the 3rd hole? Is it your opinion that the third hole is not a legal problem? I am just trying to understand you here.

 

I am sure that RAA could care less what I think on the issue, but a certain former Chinese MAK90 importer might have some experiences to share with him. I have seen Mak90s with the third hole and I know the BATF's opinion of them. Do a Google of, "Mak90 with 3rd hole."

 

Everyone is free to buy what they like at a gunshow, but I would not touch one with a 10 foot pole.

 

As far as the desirability of looking authentic goes, well if you go out of your way to look like a duck, and quack like a duck, do not be surprised if you have to start dodging birdshot.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

......I guess Clyde doesn't know what he's talking about? Is that what you are saying? Maybe you should tell him that yourself.

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that RAA (Clyde?) has claimed that there is no problem with the 3rd hole? Is it your opinion that the third hole is not a legal problem? I am just trying to understand you here.

 

I am sure that RAA could care less what I think on the issue, but a certain former Chinese MAK90 importer might have some experiences to share with him. I have seen Mak90s with the third hole and I know the BATF's opinion of them. Do a Google of, "Mak90 with 3rd hole."

 

Everyone is free to buy what they like at a gunshow, but I would not touch one with a 10 foot pole.

 

As far as the desirability of looking authentic goes, well if you go out of your way to look like a duck, and quack like a duck, do not be surprised if you have to start dodging birdshot.

Oh excuse me. You must not have read the whole thread...

[Azrial 1,091]

Oh excuse me. You must not have read the whole thread...

You are quite correct!

I will read back through the article.

[Azrial 1,091]

Oh excuse me. You must not have read the whole thread...

You are quite correct!

I will read back through the article.

OK, I just read back through the article. You were correct, I missed the part about RAA stating they are legal. But, now that I have seen that, I still have my doubts that the BATF would agree.

 

But it would not be the first time that the BATF has reversed themselves completely. I would love to see the BATF letter that RAA is referencing. I could well be wrong. But, the Chinese "3rd hole" Mak90 AK47s were exactly the same and they declared them contraband.

 

I don't have one and you could not give me one with a hole or a pin. Good luck to those that have one!

[Bvamp 604]

I asked Clyde At RAAC to obtain a letter stating this.

 

ALMOST ALL guns you ever saw with a third hole WERE ORIGINALLY MADE AS MACHINEGUNS as per BATF guidelines. the saiga guns, however, come PRISTINE OFF THE PLANT as semi automatic hunting firearms.

 

intent and use are two different things, as are possession laws.

 

I am sure RAAC will obtain a letter on the matter, dictating either way. this is part of the reason that the BATF should be relied on only in part, and the letter of congress the word of the law, if you ask me....

 

 

RAAC further explained to me that their method of acceptance includes finish work reviewal and its complete and perfect form of, as well as why they are so specific about it...

 

saiga recievers were NEVER made machine guns. this is very true, and wherein the law lays......this isnt your kit gun, and those laws dont apply to it. MAK90's WERE machine guns originally, as were a load of romanian recievers.....etc etc...

 

the saigas as they come in now? were NEVER made a machine gun, and are PRISTINE in thier imported form, which is the saving grace. It may need correction, still however, or a letter.

 

It should NOT need correction or a letter, but I asked The owner of RAAC to get on one, in any event, and they deemed it a good idea, as well....

 

I will be absolutely sure to communicate this issue as it is reinforced, to you all here. It shouldnt be a problem.

 

If it is, I will be sure to make you all aware of it immediately. It does not look like it will be a problem, however, as per the reasons above.

Edited December 24, 2007 by Bvamp

[gungoat 0]

sorry, bad post

Edited December 24, 2007 by gungoat

[gungoat 0]

sorry, but this gun is illegal no matter what RAA says. a 3rd hole is a machine gun in the eyes of BATF. just went thru all this crap last year with the romanian PSL. some came into the US with the 3rd hole welded up and even though the PSL had NEVER been set up as a FA ,the BATF caught it and impounded the shipment. all the guns already shipped got notified to return them before BATF knocked on your door. you can check all this out on Gunboards ,AR-15,AK-files etc. your gun slipped thru the cracks, you do what you want !

 

Edit: also look on saiga forum under "other weapons-rifles "

Edited December 24, 2007 by gungoat

[Bvamp 604]

Im sure I am wrong, but that is how it was explained to me. As I said, I suggested they get a letter on it, to make it official, but we all know how that goes.

[Azrial 1,091]

.......ALMOST ALL guns you ever saw with a third hole WERE ORIGINALLY MADE AS MACHINEGUNS as per BATF guidelines. the saiga guns, however, come PRISTINE OFF THE PLANT as semi automatic hunting firearms........intent and use are two different things, as are possession laws..........saiga recievers were NEVER made machine guns. ........MAK90's WERE machine guns originally, as were a load of romanian recievers........

The Mak90s were not converted machines guns, "Mak" meaning, "modified AK." I have seen them brand new, and in different degrees of having all necessary parts and mods for F/A operation. Just having the hole or the internal cut was enough to declare them contraband. As I have said, the BATF may now take a different view on the matter....

 

As to the statement that Saigas were never made as machine guns, does this mean that the assembly line used to produce Saigas is never used to produce F/A rifles? If so there is no reason to mark the pin hole location, much less to put a pin in place! It has no function in a semiauto rifle. Superfluous manufacturing steps only increase the cost of the final product. There is more to this story.

 

Regarding the argument about intent, that is a defense in this matter and only comes into play after charges have been made.

 

For me this is only a matter of curiosity, I do not have a 3rd hole Saiga, nor have I imported them. I wish all concerned best wishes in this matter. My only reason for speaking out is desire not to see an innocent gun owner in legal jeopardy.

 

I look forward to updates on this issue.

[vjor 2]

Thanks guys, good info to know. I mean it can help people on the long run, ATF have been famous from changing things around

one day and next day something totally different.

 

The best way is to have it in writing from the ATF, I mean any changes they have made or a ok letter

to the problem in question, that simplifies a lot of stuff. Like you don't getting into any problems

with the alphabet police. Any other way is simply speculation on a forum, not the law of the land.

 

Just 2 cents of nonsense.

[gungoat 0]

i still want a saiga with dimples and sidescope mounts. where can I find one