BUFF_dragon 3 Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 I've seen AR's done where they don't have a butt-stock, and a short barrel so that they are considered pistols. What would the legal problems be with pullin the stock off, replacing it with a pistol grip on the back (much like a mossberg or rem gun)?? I don't mean to open a can-of-worms, but I was just curious if there would be 'parts' requirement things, or what would go on with it.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 You cannot convert a shotgun into a pistol, for more than one legal reason. You can pay your NFA tax ($200) and have a short barrelled shotgun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BUFF_dragon 3 Posted February 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 even if they don't have a stock on the rear? There are 410 revolver pistols? Are they allowed to do that because they are 'technically' for pistol calibers? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MD_Willington 11 Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 410 revolver rifled barrel started out as a pistol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Has a bore of LESS than .5'" . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VA M11 0 Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 What would the legal problems be with pullin the stock off, replacing it with a pistol grip on the back (much like a mossberg or rem gun)?? You CAN purchase a remington or mossberg AOW (all other weapons) with JUST a pistol grip and a short barrel---BUT it must have left left the factory with only the pistol type grip---AND it can NEVER have a stock attached (unless you pay the $200 SBS tax stamp vs. the $5 AOW tax stamp that you will pay for the "pistol shotgun" that you speak of...).....sooooooo won't happen for the S-12 since they are imported/left factory with the stock in place---the only option would be SBS and $200 stamp...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrwilson 5 Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) Doh, wrong forum. Edited February 14, 2008 by mrwilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BUFF_dragon 3 Posted February 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 I know I'm being redundant, but I'm just trying to clarify... if I took the stock off, and didn't touch anything else, I would still need the NFA SBS? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 I know I'm being redundant, but I'm just trying to clarify... if I took the stock off, and didn't touch anything else, I would still need the NFA SBS? Unless you live in Michigan or other places with stricter laws, so long as your shotgun is 26" long over all and has an 18" barrel, you're fine. Stock, no stock, whatever. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BUFF_dragon 3 Posted February 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 I'm in KY, there are illegal guns all over the place, I just don't want to inadvertantly add to that issue..... best to ask before doing stupid stuff.... how would that work with parts count? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 I'm in KY, there are illegal guns all over the place, I just don't want to inadvertantly add to that issue..... best to ask before doing stupid stuff.... how would that work with parts count? If your shotgun has no buttstock, you'd not count a buttstock among your parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BUFF_dragon 3 Posted February 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 right, but I would be replacing that stock with a pistolgrip that would bolt in its place, not doing the typical conversion PG where you have to move the firing group and all that.... literally just replacing the stock with a PG Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stiletto raggio 20 Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Actually, since the Saiga is essentially a standard AK receiver, I don't see any reason why a dedicated consumer couldn't register this new receiver as a pistol and then take the pieces from a Saiga and make an AOW. If you live in a place like Indiana, which does not allow SBS but does allow AOWs, it is the only viable option. It oculd be done for well under a thousand dollars, especially if you are wise and go with a 20 gauge. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) Actually, since the Saiga is essentially a standard AK receiver, I don't see any reason why a dedicated consumer couldn't register this new receiver as a pistol and then take the pieces from a Saiga and make an AOW. Yes, you could build a brand-new AOW pistol by taking a new receiver and cutting up an S-12 for parts. Personally I think it's a waste of time. A short shotty with no buttstock is not a lot of fun to shoot. Edited February 14, 2008 by BobAsh Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stiletto raggio 20 Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Actually, since the Saiga is essentially a standard AK receiver, I don't see any reason why a dedicated consumer couldn't register this new receiver as a pistol and then take the pieces from a Saiga and make an AOW. Yes, you could build a brand-new AOW pistol by taking a new receiver and cutting up an S-12 for parts. Personally I think it's a waste of time. A short shotty with no buttstock is not a lot of fun to shoot. Certainly not as fun or versatile as a SBS, but I have a couple of PG only shotguns (one a TacStar Bubba's 1300 and one a cut down Mossy 5500) and they certainly are fun. I think a full on 12 gauge would be excessive, but a 20 could be really fun. 8" 20 gauge pistol, anyone? Throw and HK style K grip on the front and call it a PDW. Hooah. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 The only advantage to making it an AOW instead of an SBS is the $5 transfer tax. HOWEVER - If you are MAKING it as an individual, it is still $200, even as an AOW. So if you're making it, you might as well go the SBS route. You can still take the stock off. You can also take the stock off a regular Saiga and have no NFA worries as long as you keep the barrel 18"+ and the overall length 26"+ I'd rather get a Tromix shorty with the gas system done right and a decent folding stock so I'd have the option of with or without buttstock. The advantages of building a Saiga-12 on a virgin receiver are very very few. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vultite 57 Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 (edited) law is, once a receiver has been mated to a stock, it is illegal to remove it and call it a pistol, you can build pistols, make sure the receiver is labeled for pistol use only, otherwise your stuck... EX: I just helped a buddy build a AR pistol, spike's tactical sells AR lowers that clearly say, PISTOL on it. just in case a range officer wants to bug you...or a ATF agent =D Edited February 15, 2008 by Vultite Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stiletto raggio 20 Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 I agree: I would ahve no interest in a S-12 AOW if I lived in a state that allowed SBS registration. However, Indiana, in its infinite wisdom, will not allow an SBS, so an AOW is the only short-barreled action I am going to get in the Hoosier state. And honestly, even with buckshot, recoil on a 12 gauge with non-magnum loads is not bad, especially if you have double pistol grips and an automatic action. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 ... you can build pistols, make sure the receiver is labeled for pistol use only... Actually there is no legal requirement to mark your receiver "pistol". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Franky 2 Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 410 revolver rifled barrel started out as a pistol The Thunder5 was the only .410 revolver I knew about. What a handfull. Check it out. http://www.thunder5.com/docs1.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nwcid 0 Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 I know I am new on this forum but let me see what I can add to this. Shotguns (ie smooth bore) can only be one of 4 things. It can be a shotgun (18" + BBL), Full auto, SBS (short BBL Shotgun) or an AOW (Any Other Weapon). There is NO way for them to ever be a pistol as a pistol has a RIFLED BBL. If a Shotgun as EVER had a stock on it the only legal for transfer thing that it can become is a SBS. If you start with a virgin receiver you can legally build an AOW. The AOW and SBS could look exactly the same but the way they are registered are different which could make a difference in your state. In my state SBS is a no go, but AOW is legal. . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cscharlie 107 Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) On the AR pistol, Bob is correct in that it doesn't have to be marked pistol. A few arfcomers started buying stripped lower recievers from Superior Arms when they offered custom engraving and thought it would be a good idea to have them marked as pistol to advoid being needlessly hassled by Barney Fife when at the range... Superior decided to sell lowers pre marked this way since they seen a marked for them. Now a boat load of people think that this means it is a requirment to be marked pistol, including a bunch of dealers. Edited February 20, 2008 by cscharlie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sean_Galt 0 Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 On the AR pistol, Bob is correct in that it doesn't have to be marked pistol. A few arfcomers started buying stripped lower recievers from Superior Arms when they offered custom engraving and thought it would be a good idea to have them marked as pistol to advoid being needlessly hassled by Barney Fife when at the range... Superior decided to sell lowers pre marked this way since they seen a marked for them. Now a boat load of people think that this means it is a requirment to be marked pistol, including a bunch of dealers. My 1st post! Yaay! True enough. It would probably be a VERY good idea to only use a receiver that was TRANSFERRED from a dealer on a 4473 as a PISTOL, though. Just as a CYA. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RDSWriter 5 Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 (edited) Okay... there is a lot of information on this thread that is correct and a lot that adds information not pertinent to the original inquiry. To BUFF Dragon's ORIGINAL inquiry. Yes, you can replace the Saiga 12's stock with a pistol grip. But this is not an importable configuration, so 922r applies and you'll need to ensure that you have 10 or less imported parts from the "922r" list. Keep in mind that this does not make the shotgun a pistol... it is still a shotgun and must have a barrel longer than 18" to remain a non-NFA firearm. Details that may - or may not - be pertinent to your inquiry If you want a shorter barrel (less than 18"), then you have basically one option for a factory original S12 receiver weapon. That is, you must register it as an SBS and pay your $200. Now, if you want to only have a $5 NFA tax stamp, you'll need to have a Class 2 manufacture a Saiga 12 receiver and then manufacture an AOW S12 - which then falls under the definition of a smoothbore pistol. Keep in mind that if you make an AOW yourself, you'll pay $200 for an AOW because ALL NFA items have a $200 'making and registering tax' that non-SOT holders (citizens without licenses) must pay. So.... if you're going to manufacture it yourself... you might as well manufacture an SBS. Technically, you could also probably register an S12 as a Destructive Device citing the ruling associated with the USAS 12........ but if it got approved because of the unsporting configuration of a pistol grip, detachable magazine and weight, you'd probably have about 500 men from this board beat your ass for setting a precedent with an S12 DD. To nalioth's point... check your local state regulations as some (like Michigan) have more restrictive regulations on what constitutes a restricted firearm. Edited February 21, 2008 by RDSWriter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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