Interesting Thumbhole Stock!

[KySoldier 2]

Geez, you're really getting into this, thanks for the pics! I was just thinking, seeing the original AK stock next to the original Saiga stock, might it not be easier to make a sort of wooden adaptor to fit the AK stock to the unmodified Saiga receiver? Just an idea.

[Billyjobob 0]

KY:

 

Maybe, but unless it was made of metal and designed just exactly right, I don't believe I would put my trust in it with as much recoil as these things have. Too many joints provide more opportunities for failure. That joint is the critical marriage (I believe) in this proposition.

 

With that said, I have seen the design you mention somewhere for sale. They basically use different adaptors for different gun mountings but the stock is interchangable between the mounts and guns. It could possibly work well, but I have reservations with the design that would need some extensive proving to eliminate my concerns. My mind is open if cautious concerning the matter.

 

As to easier, yea, I'll give you that. These are a LOT of work, but sometimes the hard way tends to be the best way. If the gun were to ever fail, you could safely use the stock as a club! On the initial test model, the thumbhole grip might break if used as a club, but the main spine of the stock is going to take a tremendous amount of abuse before breaking. On Jerry's design, I don't see any possibility of anything breaking if used as a club or whatever.

 

Instant gratification however this is not.

 

I'll post more pictures if you want when they are finished.

 

Billyjobob

[JesusCow 1]

*speechless*

 

.. i .. want .. one ..

[KySoldier 2]

Yeah, didn't think about recoil....that might be an issue. I asked my local gun shops if they stocked Saiga 12s, they didn't. One called is supplier and told me that they too were out. When the Christmas season is over (and my NFA transfers are paid) I'll get em to order me a 12 and I'll play around with the stocks too.

 

Never thought I'd hear someone rate a firearm accessory as to whether or not it could be used as a club...I'm guessing yours is for defense so that is important. If I were you, I'd mount whatever stock would fit and function best along with a bayonet! I might do that to mine anyway, just to make it look fierce...maybe.

[Billyjobob 0]

KY:

 

When you do finally get your Saiga 12, send me your mailing address and I'll send you a rough cut stock blank you can finish out yourself. You will be surprised! These most recent ones are really turning out nice! Let me know if you want one like Jerry's or the more traditional AK thumbhole.

 

Billyjobob

[KySoldier 2]

Thanks man, I'll try to remember to do that.

[decompressor 0]

A simple question...and I dont want to start a big thing here....but would mounting a thumbhole stock still be considered a "a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" or no?...It may sound stupid but I am really curious...as a solid stock looks quite different.

[Billyjobob 0]

decompressor:

 

You might want to see "What can you do to a Saiga?" by PvtPyle. May be more information than you are looking for, but it is about as complete as it gets. Makc has listed it at the top of the forum as an important topic for ease in locating. It should answer your questions.

 

Best of luck.

 

Billyjobob

[KySoldier 2]

decompressor:

 

I thumbhole stock is not seen as a pistol grip. They were shipped to the US in great mass on AKs so to make it a more sporting rifle after the '89 ban. (this is why the MAK-90 was created for example, that is what the 90 stands for)

 

more info on the Norinco MAK-90...

http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/mak90.html

[F4D 0]

Greetings everyone. Hope you all had super holidays. The production run on my stocks is getting real close to reality, hopfully by the end of Jan. I'll know then what the consumer cost will be and keep you all informed. The stocks will be thick walled or solid synthetics and will have spacer plates for the butt to adjust LOP.

Regards, Jerry

[chips 0]

if you're gunna start selling those, i will probably buy one

[TapperMan 0]

While thumbhole stocks are not regarded as pistol grips with regard to the '89 import ban, they are considered pistol grips for the '94 AW ban, according to BATF's interpretation.

 

Link to BATF Opinion

 

Here's the relevant quote:

 

ATF agrees with the commenter that replacing a separate pistol grip

with a thumbhole stock does not remove the pistol grip as a feature. A

semiautomatic rifle or semiautomatic shotgun with a thumbhole stock and

one or more of the other features specified in the law would be a

``semiautomatic assault weapon'' as defined.

 

The BATF considers a semiautomatic shotgun with a detachable magazine and a thumbhole stock as a "semiautomatic assault weapon".

 

It would be prudent to not install a thumbhole stock until after the ban expires next September.

[KySoldier 2]

Everyone should read TapperMan's link, I think it has to be the most disheartening thing I've read since I joined this forum.

 

I trained on fully automatic weapons, grenade launchers, rocket launchers, etc and here I am worrying about whether I can modify a stock on a shotgun without breaking the law or being harrased at the range or raided by the ATF (who, as we've seen in the past, has a bad record of killing everyone in a case of the slightest perceived resistance).

 

I sure would like to hear in regular talk how a thumbhole stock makes a weapon anymore dangerous than a hunting style stock. IT DOESN'T ! It is strictly a cosmetic change. The bullets are no less or more lethal, you can't fire faster or slower....Jeez. I was corrected some time ago that the ATF does not make laws, they only see that they are enforced. Well, here they are, making a law, by interpreting what uninformed/scared citizens had written into affect by a government of democrats.

 

I am not a danger to anyone or a militant waiting for a "war with the man." I'm just a national guard "puppet" that wants to buy (and modify cosmetically) some weapons for use at the local range and occasional hunting. I sure would like to talk to the "commentor" who recommended to the ATF that thumbhole stocks are pistol grips. So what, is my AK illegal till September? There are too many uninformed people making decisions for the masses.

 

Thanks for the post. Sorry for the rant. Certainly not directed to anyone here. I welcome any responses (Post or Email).

[TapperMan 0]

Actually, your AK should be fine as long as the parts count is OK, since a semiautomatic rifle with a detachable magazine is allowed one extra "evil" feature. So, whether it's a pistol grip or thumbhole stock, it doesn't matter. It's just the shotguns that will have to wait until September for the thumbhole or PG.

[Bvamp 604]

KySoldier: actually, a rear pistol grip or at least more vertical grip on a rear stock gives you excellent presentation on follow up shots. try bump firing an sks then an ak47...youll see what i mean.

 

ONE way one might get that type of function as well as have a unique look is to go for a TC condender type pistol buttstock. not too sure if its even feasable tho or legal.

 

how in the hell does anyone change magazines in AKMs with a foregrip? that seems way too impracticle to be of any use, cept maybe to wrestle around with a crook or the cops when they find out you have that one your gun and come to take you to prison for 3 years or whatever it is mandatory

[KySoldier 2]

TapperMan:

 

My parts count consists of strictly Egyptian internals (as far as I know). The front and rear stocks as well as the muzzle break and receiver cover are American. I can't legally put a pistol grip on it, that's why it comes with a wooden thumbhole stock (like the MAK-90).

 

Bvamp:

 

Tried bump firing (which would be great w/ my drum) but I couldn't get it to work. The muzzle break has greatly reduced the recoil and the trigger pull is long. I'm not really worried though. It does what I want and looks good in the process. I've still got a M11-9mm coming that'll spray plenty and I just got a Savage 10FP-LE2A yesterday to keep me busy.

 

Also, I should have in the mail soon a front pistol grip for the AK(I'll put up a new avatar with it when it comes in)

[Bvamp 604]

you should get a US made trigger group for your AK KySoldier, before you put that foregrip pistol on it. i believe you can change the rear stock on the AK to US made with a small length increase to count as US part as well.

[Packrat 0]

Another shooter was just playing around with some scrap plywood and tried making furniture from that as a "laminated" piece. His first attempt was for a forearm. He used 3/4" plywood, one piece with the laminations horizontal with a piece on each side with laminations vertical (making an open-ended box. When shaped into a forearm with the bulges, it made a very nice piece, especially after staining. He then used 2 pieces glued together flat to make a stock, which came out looking good also.

 

If you like the look of laminated wood, and are thinking about making a stock for yourself, this would be a good project.

 

If you have only the synthetic furniture, you probably don't know that Saiga uses a stamped steel piece in their wooden forearms to attach it to the barrel, instead of trying to make slots in the wood like those molded into the synthetic. This piece could be easily copied using a "C" channel with a minimum internal width of .475" and maximum external width of .550". (The external width is at the bottom, the internal width is at .200" above the bottom externally.) This piece is held in place by the sling swivel screw.

 

I'm in the process of reshaping the wooden forearm for a .308 Saiga to an external shape more like the bulged AK forearm, but with the front end vertical to about the mid-line of the barrel, then sloping back at about 45 degrees from there to the top of the forearm. The wood is poor (very soft, with little graining), but cherrywood stain and tung oil is bringing out a little grain, and so far (one coar of oil) it looks pretty good. I plan on combining it with a "Chinese" (Bulgarian?) thumbhole buttstock that I have removed the thumbhole from and reshaped into a buttstock similar to an AK, but longer and with the butt size of the original stock (similar to a US buttstock in length and butt size).

[KySoldier 2]

Hey Bvamp:

 

I didn't think that putting a forend pistol grip on an AK would be an issue. I'd rather not do a parts conversion.

 

1. I don't wanna full with what works so perfectly.

2. This is an older AK that I wouldn't want to spend too much on (I'd rather get a new one with a PG and good US parts count).

[Bvamp 604]

a foreign front pistol grip is legal on a foreign pre-ban rifle. something about it being listed as a military type part or something. again, the logic is if you can use it for positive effect in close quarters combat, it shouldnt be on civilian weapons. i dont think many people would give you trouble for that one tho on a rifle. shotgun is another story. what you DONT want to do is go putting a common threading size on your rifle's muzzle that doesnt have it already. COMMON being the keyword here. that and magazine modifications are what get you into trouble with, from what ive been told by law enforcement ppl i know, other than the obvious full-auto modification of course. people pretty much do what they want anyway, just dont get caught i guess....i have too much invested in firearms to have them taken away and serve 3 mandatory years for a federal firearms violation for some stupid "looks cooler" part, myself. for instance, did you know that if you accidentally shoot someone or yourself while hunting, or even pop someone on a concealed carry permit lawfully, they can go into your home and yank your collection on you until court is done with? THAT is when they will get you, something like that happening. noone plans on it, but shit does happen.

 

its definately something you need to check on. i dont know if its categorised as a pistol grip or a foreend pistol grip myself. nor how two pistol grips would work out in ATF rules for post-ban rifles. put a US made scope mount/gas cylinder on it. that will solve your problem right there with parts count, AND improve the looks and, heres my personal stickler for any part: the functionality of your rifle.

[KySoldier 2]

Yes, functionality is the most important thing. I don't think it's ever jammed so I hate to screw with the parts to install new US parts. I thought it would be good to clean my Ruger MKII pistol really well since I've had it for a long time and never fully dissasembled it....now it doesn't function right leaving me going "WTF!"

 

Also, a pistol grip is defined as a grip protruding conspiculously beneath the action, or something to that effect. So maybe the front grip doesn't count the same...just an idea.

[decompressor 0]

Hey thanks everyone for your replies to my previous post....I thought there was some discrepancy to the thumbhole on a shotgun which is why I asked.....Thanks for your help...I'll guess I'll wait till the end of the year and pray the whole time.

[Mephis 82]

Greetings everyone. Hope you all had super holidays. The production run on my stocks is getting real close to reality, hopfully by the end of Jan. I'll know then what the consumer cost will be and keep you all informed. The stocks will be thick walled or solid synthetics and will have spacer plates for the butt to adjust LOP.

Regards, Jerry

ive always loved the more sturdy feel of a pistol grip and butt stock, could i see a photo shoped Saiga-12 with that pistolgrip style stock cause i might buy it, and also does it come with the low recoil buttplate cause that would be great to have sence i like just going out and shooting stuff out in the woods all day.

[Mephis 82]

 

Well its a crude photo shoping job, but it gives you an idea of how it looks. i might get one still not sure.

[alduro 0]

When are the above pictured stocks gonna be for sale?

[allocine 0]

I am looking for a stick with a pistol grip like the one of F4D, or Mephis.

 

someone could tell me where to go?

[hemophilic 0]

F4D has since given up on producing these stocks. He can't find a good manufacturer to do it for a good price in the US and won't go out of the US. We're stuck making our own. With some trial and error it would probably be the best solution anyway considering its a harassment/legality issue.

[FiveLiterEater96 0]

I need one, will pay just about anything for it.... someone sell me one.

[BrianW 0]

Check out my new design stock which should still be compliant.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...st=0entry7834

 

BrianW