Saiga .223 versus AR-15

[SirROFL 13]

It depends on where I'm going into combat. Urban areas...I'd rather have an M4 for faster reloading, more useful accessories. But in a non-urban area I'll take my AKs anyday.

[quinci956 1]

agreed for regular civilian use, in a combat situation i wouldn't have a AR/M16 based weapon unless it was piston converted....

 

Unfortunately most of us who go into actual combat don't have the luxury of choice. Fortunately the M4 performs a thousand times better than some would like you to think. Yea, the ratty old M16's in Basic don't work worth a shit half the time, same as the worn out M16's issued to support units, but I have seen very very few malfs from a properly maintained M4 after spending days and thousands of live rounds down range at 11B school.

 

One majorly overlooked feature on many AR's is the chrome lined chamber and bore, AND chrome lined bolt. If it doesn't have those features, save your money and look elsewhere. Too many of the "mil spec" parts I've seen are in fact not "mil-spec." The ones that really make me laugh are 1/9 non chrome lined barrels listed as such.

 

+1 I always hear about how much better the accuracy is with the non-chrome barreled AR's. I have shot owned and worked on both. The chrome is a lot easier to keep cleen and when accompanied with a chrome bolt, it takes less lubrication to run smooth which means less dust/dirt build up. I am a Colt armorer and love the AR/M16. I never intended to bash the AR. I was just poiting out that you don't have to spend $1000.00 to get a good .223 assault rifle. The Ak is a simple uncomplicated design that takes a lot of abuse and neglect.

[renegadebuck 16]

It depends on where I'm going into combat. Urban areas...I'd rather have an M4 for faster reloading, more useful accessories. But in a non-urban area I'll take my AKs anyday.

 

 

It depends on how you have your Saiga set up on faster reloading. I can cycle mine within .5 seconds of my AR, same three mag setup.

[cma g21 3]

A bit of information on Wolf ammo in an AR:

 

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm

[Bad Bob 0]

agreed for regular civilian use, in a combat situation i wouldn't have a AR/M16 based weapon unless it was piston converted....

For most of us civilians, it kind of depends on what kind of "combat situation" you're looking at.

 

If it's some dirt bag breaking into your house at 2:00 AM, with some kind of weapon, and you had the AR out to the range some time in the last 6 months, and cleaned it afterwords, and have a loaded, quality mag available - God help the dirt bag. (Just remember to NOT be holding that AR when your LEOs arrive - your mileage may vary)...

 

If it's an asteroid or hurricane the size of BO's ego plowing up turf in the middle of these United States, and you're an average civilian who has not been trained to clean your weapon every time you get an extra minute to spare (let alone have spare parts available - not to mention food & water), and everything has gone to h@ll in a hand basket, and official assistance will not be available (thank you very much) until the USofA goobermint gets around to it - I might prefer the Saiga...

 

Just my semi-informed opinion...

[Abominable_Hillbilly 0]

A bit of information on Wolf ammo in an AR:

 

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm

 

Thank you for posting this. It amazes me how many people still believe that the lacquer "melts". Take a MAPP torch to a spent case..........it will NOT melt.

 

The new polymer coating causes poor feeding in my AR's. It's not as slick as the lacquer.

 

Clean your chamber more frequently with dirtier ammo. Do not switch from steel-cased ammo to brass without cleaning the chamber.

[Rick_a 13]

Technically, the AR does have a gas piston...functionally it's the bolt. The gas piston conversions over time have been creating more problems than "fixing" anything. Parts are breaking on the fragile op rods/pistons and they are quickly wearing out upper receivers to an unserviceable state due to the op rod imparting torque on the bolt carrier and creating deep grooves in the receiver.

 

I think direct impingement AR's are the shit as far as 5.56/.223 rifles go. They balance well, tend to be very accurate, are reliable, and are about as ergonomically perfect as a rifle can be. Though it may take more familiarization to get used to it, the placement of the controls is excellent. M16's/M4's are not reliable as machine guns, and were never intended to be used as such. Some are built for use as squad automatics and I seriously question the application as such.

 

I've used the M16A2 as a Marine grunt. The only time I had any stoppages was with blanks and after having low-crawled through much deep mud and had a lot get into the bolt/chamber. It was as much my fault for not having kept it out of the mud.

 

I own a Colt AR15. I've shot M855 surplus through it exclusively and have had zero stoppages with it over the ten years I've owned it.

 

I like AK's, too. A PSL is my choice for a longer range rifle. It is simple, robust, easy to operate, and has a reputation for reliability. It is very light for a rifle in a MBR caliber, and makes perfect sense as a DMR. As much as I like it I'm also a fan of Saiga's in .308. These "big AK's" are some of the most under-rated rifles in the market IMO. They have M1A Standard (apparently the benchmark when it comes to MBR's in the US) accuracy, and can be had for around 1/3-1/2 the price.

 

The AK vs AR debate is a very overblown topic strewn with misinformation and myths. Everything has it's pro's and cons, and these are my opinions. I think everyone should have both.

 

As far as a bump in the night gun, I wouldn't use either. I've fired a .45ACP pistol indoors without hearing protection and can't imagine how it'd feel doing the same with a rifle

[superA 289]

A bit of information on Wolf ammo in an AR:

 

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm

 

Thank you for posting this. It amazes me how many people still believe that the lacquer "melts". Take a MAPP torch to a spent case..........it will NOT melt.

 

The new polymer coating causes poor feeding in my AR's. It's not as slick as the lacquer.

 

Clean your chamber more frequently with dirtier ammo. Do not switch from steel-cased ammo to brass without cleaning the chamber.

 

 

 

Yeah but I have a friend who knows this guy that posted a video on youtube and he said, oh never mind.

[Twinsen 86]

The AR-15 was not designed for using steel cased ammunition. Especially not steel cased ammo with painted smeared on it. AK's were.

 

The AR-15 really is a fine fine rifle. That gas system is not a good choice given the ammo NATO uses. Saying the AR-15 is junk is bullshit, but saying it is the greatest rifle ever made is bullshit too. An AR-15 with a nice gas system is the god of .223 rifles.

[Ben Shepherd 0]

The biggest issue is reliable extraction of steel cased ammo in AR platform rifles. Ever wonder WHY all the steel cased Russian calibers have heavily tapered bodies? Ease of extraction after firing is a big part of why they do.

[imarangemaster 315]

I have an M4 and a Saiga, both 5.56. I have shot Wolf and Barnaul from an M4 with no problems. That includes early lacquer, polyformance, and Barnaul zinc and brass washed. ZERO problems. I do keep a spare exctractor for the AR handy, however

[superA 289]

I have had similar results with my Bushmaster and steel cased ammo. No problems at all. Wolf 62 grain HP were more accurate than anything I used.

[Bad Bob 0]

The biggest issue is reliable extraction of steel cased ammo in AR platform rifles. Ever wonder WHY all the steel cased Russian calibers have heavily tapered bodies? Ease of extraction after firing is a big part of why they do.

 

I think S&W is offering an AR (complete rifle or just the upper assembly) in 5.45x39. Given ammo prices lately, I might consider it (if I didn't already own a 5.56/.223 + ammo, and if the 5.45 AR mags were not too expensive)...

[Bad Bob 0]

...Ever wonder WHY all the steel cased Russian calibers have heavily tapered bodies? Ease of extraction after firing is a big part of why they do.

 

I forgot to mention, for historical purposes - the 7.62x39 M-43 case was copied from the front half of the British .303 cartridge (which is why you can cut off the @ss end of a .303 barrel and get a 7.62x39 barrel). Not saying the Soviets were wrong (I would do the same thing, and may they rot in h@ll) - the .303 was (and is) a superb cartridge...

[SickMAK90 0]

Ok......sigh.....my first post and I am gonna look like an AR fan boy. Oh wait I am.

 

Ok, I have no idea what was wrong with this guys AR15 but I have owned 2 (still do but sold one of my uppers). I started off my assault weapon lifestyle with a MAK90. I love it, shot it thousands of times over the course of 2-3 years. Then one day I decided to build my first ar15. I fell in LOVE. I have not shot the MAK90 since. It has been 3 years and the mak still sits. I have the gun, ammo, ect for it I just never shoot it.

 

Fast foward to the present. With all this panic buying I decided to get a WASR. Just to have. I ended up finding a WASR in 5.45x39 which I wanted anyways. Then saturday I bought a Saiga in 223. I had no intentions on buying it but it was like new for 250$ and I wanted another 223 rifle anyways.

 

I shot the saiga today and it was pretty sweet. I'll admit this may take a little shooting time away from my AR. At least for now. With the stock iron sights my saiga shoots about as good as my ar15 to 50 yards. However, out past 50 the sights on the AR shine. I shoot MUCH better with AR's than I do AK's. The Saiga has more recoil than an AR also. It is not bad recoil, just a tad more and feels much different. My guess is the AK's bolt is much heavier causing the extra recoil. Right now I only have 1 10 round magazine for it. I was about to order some surefire mags but I may do the AR magazine conversion since I have tons of ar15 magazines.

 

How about reliability? I believe this is up to the shooter. Like I said I have had 2 RRA ar15's. I shoot wolf out of all my rifles. Especially AK's and AR's. In my days with the MAK90 I never once had a malfunction. Not once. Since I have shot THOUSANDS (remember this stuff used to cost 2$ a box) of rounds of wolf through my AR15's. One summer to prove a point to a buddy of mine (AK nut hugger) I logged 2000 rounds of wolf .223 threw my AR with no cleaning and no lube. I even made it a point to bump fire a lot. I never experienced 1 single malfunction. I finally gave up and cleaned the poor thing. It was absolutely filthy but never failed to go bang or load a round. So now I have had 3 AK's (in 3 calibers) and 2 AR's and none have had any malfunctions. I have also never had one single malfunction from my beretta or any of my 3 glocks. I really believe its my strict maintenance that keeps my guns working flawlessly. Heck, I have already put a couple thousands rounds of federal bulk through my 10/22 with no malfunctions.

 

So all in all....the saiga 223 is awesome. Probably a better bang for most peoples buck when compared to an AR15. I build my own AR's so I have never spent over 650$ on one. But for 250$ (what I paid anyways) the saiga is awesome. MUCH MUCH nicer than my POS WASR-2. I bought it just to have...canted sight and all. It needs some TLC even tho it is brand new.

 

Sorry for the long winded first post.

 

::edit:: I have never had an issue with steel case ammo and AR's. My extractor shows no sign of wear and has never been replaced.

Edited December 10, 2008 by SickMAK90

[AgentLQ 3]

Uh... just for the record... I am an 11B who will slander his weapon.

 

FUCK M4s.... yup. FUCK UM.

 

Here Joe, have this overly designed piece of kit. Don't worry, you can have something better when your training bracket enters the $250k+ area. Until then however have a thing we think is good.... enough.... and is now a symbol of western might despite its lacking reliability and overall shottiness.

 

Uh... thank you Uncle Sam... do I get lubricant for my ass first?

 

 

NOPE! I'm afraid our whole budget for lubricant went to designing a lube for the weapon.

 

If you're gonna give me a AR keep it simple as possible. Gimme a Dissapator with a flat top and full stock.

 

Thank you Mr. Mckee

[SickMAK90 0]

To touch on the wolf in an AR argument. The new polymer coated stuff is fine. The lacquer coated stuff did cause problems. I have also never had a problem with polymer coated wolf not feeding.

 

I cleaned my MAK90 tonight to keep rust away there is still that red stuff from where the seal the bullet to the case...everywhere. Its pretty nasty stuff. That would probably cause havoc to an ar15 gas system.

Edited December 10, 2008 by SickMAK90

[MCASgt New River 10,036]

Question for all the folks that smack magazines against their helmets or pound the bottom of the magazine after inserting it in the mag well....

 

Ever notice your weapon jams after several times of doing this?

 

When you smack the ribbed side (round facing outboard) of the magazine against your helmet you denting that nice, smooth, arch in the magazine body to where the follower will not side freely up and down the body of the magazine anymore.

 

And when you insert the mag into the magwell and then repeadly pound the magazine floorplate to make sure it's in....well your bending your magazine feedlips which will in time A. Induce a jam, B. break off and give you double feeds all day long or C. Not feed at all.

 

Make sure weapon is on safe, insert magazine into magwell, listen for click. Once you hear the click pull down on magazine to make sure it is properly seated, pulling charging handle firmly to the rear and release, conduct brass check.

 

I'm not FLAMING ANYONE here, just trying to impart a bit-o-G2 on ya'll.

 

R/S

Sgt of Marines

B-MOS 0933 "Combat Marksmanship Instructor."

Edited December 10, 2008 by MCASgt New River

[SirROFL 13]

Thanks for the tips!

 

I've never really hit my mags very hard on anything, although I guess some people beat the hell out of 'em. I may tap lightly against my hand, and then only on the end of the mag, holding it so as not to bend it.

[Bad Bob 0]

...So all in all....the saiga 223 is awesome. Probably a better bang for most peoples buck when compared to an AR15. I build my own AR's so I have never spent over 650$ on one. But for 250$ (what I paid anyways) the saiga is awesome...

 

::edit:: I have never had an issue with steel case ammo and AR's. My extractor shows no sign of wear and has never been replaced.

 

I can't disagree. The sights (and selector, and mag release, and bolt release) on my ArmaLite beat the crap out of my Saiga's various widgets (although I prefer the Saiga's charging handle ;>). I still love my Saiga. Best "bang for most peoples buck" out there? Amen...