Locking Lugs.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

How many Lugs does the .223 have? 2 Like the x39?

[Shellshock1918 1]

The third isn't in pre K98 mausers. And it's in the rear as a safety Lug if the front two fail.

Because pre-98 Mausers don't fire the 7.92x57 round. Its much more powerful than 6.5 swedish or 7mm Mauser.

[gunnysmith 4]

How many Lugs does the .223 have? 2 Like the x39?

yes

Before you answer,

Think peak pressure dwell time for a 147 grain 30 caliber bullet at 2850 FPS vs the same for a 55 grain .224 bullet at 3250 FPS

Edited September 16, 2008 by gunnysmith

[SaigaNoobie 66]

LOL Gunny.

 

Couldn't get one by yah huh?

 

55K PSI .223

55K PSI 7.62x51

 

62K PSI .308

[gunnysmith 4]

LOL Gunny.

 

Couldn't get one by yah huh?

 

55K PSI .223

55K PSI 7.62x51

 

62K PSI .308

This ain't my first rodeo, Pilgrim LOL

[7.62x39 0]

The third isn't in pre K98 mausers. And it's in the rear as a safety Lug if the front two fail.

 

I don't get why you all are so attacking,

I asked FIRST so I could get answers not attacks and insults.

 

I was not attacking you by any stretch of the imagination, just pointing out an error.

Now you want to qualify your statement to prior to 1898? now that's a stretch.

The third Mauser lug (albeit in the rear) locks up exactly like the front two. What makes it a "safety lug" and why would a safety lug be incorporated into the design if two are sufficient?

[SaigaNoobie 66]

My comment about attacks was not directed at you X39. As far as I can tell you were just commenting on Mausers. It's to others who have to insert insults into their observations. Sorry if you felt slighted.

 

~SN

[SaigaNoobie 66]

LOL Gunny.

 

Couldn't get one by yah huh?

 

55K PSI .223

55K PSI 7.62x51

 

62K PSI .308

This ain't my first rodeo, Pilgrim LOL

 

 

What do you mean by Peak Pressure Dwell times anyway? Please explain. I don't understand to what you refer.

Edited September 16, 2008 by SaigaNoobie

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Sorry if I hurt your feelings SN. It's just that I have seen you talk about doing some pretty silly things with Saigas before, and this one takes the cake. Not attacking...just making an observation and being honest.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

Yah cobra,

 

Hey, I'm just thinking outside the box. I figure If I ask, at least someone who knows more can teach me, it's better than screwing up and losing a hand!

[1liter 20]

Or your mellon!

 

I think people are more concerned with your well being, then you modifing your weapon...

[SaigaNoobie 66]

That woman in your avatar is NUTS! Get the diamond! LOL. Rescuers.

[santanatwo 1]

It also cocks the hammer. Leave it alone. Make NO madification to a reciever or bolt untill you know EXACTLY what each part does for a living. Some of these parts have functions that are not redibly evident.

 

 

GOB,

 

The bolt carrier cocks the hammer. that little 3rd lug does nothing but scrape the rounds and "lock" as a lug. Although I have found wierd marks on my hammer that i've attributed to the 3rd lug.

 

If Mausers etc. are just fine with 2 Lugs, AK's are fine with 2 lugs, why can't the .308 be fine with 2 lugs?

 

I want to be safe, but I just don't see the necessity of a Lug that doesn't even contact.

 

But if you guys are dead set on me keeping it, I will... for now.

 

 

this statement led more than one person to believe you were about to do something very stupid.

 

and what if someone else had followed your lead?.. and what if one of you had sold the gun later, and a third party got killed because of it?

 

(I posted this thread on another gun forum, half the replies invoked darwin)

 

this is dangerous ground you are treading on, "thinking outside the box" ?!?!?

 

more like "thinking inside the loonie bin"

 

seriously, sorry if you feelings got hurt, but you needed a wake up call, bro.

 

like I said before, I'm glad you were smart enough to post this first, rather than do it first, but when you started arguing against good advise, the gloves come off.

 

look up pressures, on a 7.36 x 39 they are about 2/3 of what they are on a 308... thus, the third lug.

[gunnysmith 4]

It has more to do with the peak pressure dwell time than chamber pressure.

Only 2 lugs are used on the .338 Rem Ultra Mag at near 65,000 psi SAAMI standard.

Most loads are in the 63,000 arena, as manufactured by the major suppliers of ammunition.

The question is always how much pressure can it take for what period of time.

Pressure test loads are driving the bullet much faster than standard loads.

That causes the dwell time to be less.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

Gunny,

 

SO are you saying that with the .338 the slower moving bullet at 63K PSI is possibly more dangerous for the life-expectancy of the lugs than a faster moving 65K pressured load out of the .338 based on dwell times?

 

 

 

 

Santanatwo,

 

You need to learn to answer a question without an insult. Seems you can't even apologize for being an ass without insulting someone.

 

 

I say: "I want to be safe, but I just don't see the necessity of a Lug that doesn't even contact."

 

And you call me a Darwin Candidate, among other shit. You sir, can go to hell.

 

Thanks.

[santanatwo 1]

Gunny,

 

SO are you saying that with the .338 the slower moving bullet at 63K PSI is possibly more dangerous for the life-expectancy of the lugs than a faster moving 65K pressured load out of the .338 based on dwell times?

 

 

 

 

Santanatwo,

 

You need to learn to answer a question without an insult. Seems you can't even apologize for being an ass without insulting someone.

 

 

I say: "I want to be safe, but I just don't see the necessity of a Lug that doesn't even contact."

 

And you call me a Darwin Candidate, among other shit. You sir, can go to hell.

 

Thanks.

 

I wasn't the one who called you a darwin canidate, I mearly reported what some other assholes said. I was more worried about your safety, and the safety of others (who either followed your lead or bought your gun after you modded it). THEIR advice was to let you go and do it, and make sure you got it on video tape.

 

And you were the one who posted your intention of ignoring our good advice.

 

I have looked at the lug in question, it does make contact. so you are wrong, sir.

 

I'll say it again, sorry I hurt your feelings. I was jsut tryign to wake you up, cause you were slipping. You can thank us for saving your life later.

[nalioth 405]

Gunny,

 

SO are you saying that with the .338 the slower moving bullet at 63K PSI is possibly more dangerous for the life-expectancy of the lugs than a faster moving 65K pressured load out of the .338 based on dwell times?

You can't compare the lugs on a bolt action rifle with the lugs on a semiautomatic one.

 

Two massive lugs on a bolt action rifle can hold a lot more pressure than the smaller-by-design two lugs on a selfloader.

 

Don't delude yourself into thinking "a lug is a lug". They're not the same across the board.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've been away due to Ike, and I'm surprised this thread is still running.

[gunnysmith 4]

Gunny,

 

SO are you saying that with the .338 the slower moving bullet at 63K PSI is possibly more dangerous for the life-expectancy of the lugs than a faster moving 65K pressured load out of the .338 based on dwell times?

The word "dangerous" does not apply as long as SAAMI standards are adhered to.

Will it create more stress on the lugs? Simple answer YES.

Is It dangerous, NO.

Remington would not allow such a condition to exist, if determined to be unsafe.

In a bolt action rifle. There is no attempt to extract the case until the pressure is at zero.

That is not the case with semi-automatic rifle. The residual pressure and kenetic energy are used to cycle the action.

The lugs are under pressure while in motion.

The timing of the breach opening in a semi-automatic then become critical.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

Gunny,

 

SO are you saying that with the .338 the slower moving bullet at 63K PSI is possibly more dangerous for the life-expectancy of the lugs than a faster moving 65K pressured load out of the .338 based on dwell times?

The word "dangerous" does not apply as long as SAAMI standards are adhered to.

Will it create more stress on the lugs? Simple answer YES.

Is It dangerous, NO.

Remington would not allow such a condition to exist, if determined to be unsafe.

In a bolt action rifle. There is no attempt to extract the case until the pressure is at zero.

That is not the case with semi-automatic rifle. The residual pressure and kenetic energy are used to cycle the action.

The lugs are under pressure while in motion.

The timing of the breach opening in a semi-automatic then become critical.

 

 

Hmm I see. Good information Gunny.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

Gunny,

 

SO are you saying that with the .338 the slower moving bullet at 63K PSI is possibly more dangerous for the life-expectancy of the lugs than a faster moving 65K pressured load out of the .338 based on dwell times?

You can't compare the lugs on a bolt action rifle with the lugs on a semiautomatic one.

 

Two massive lugs on a bolt action rifle can hold a lot more pressure than the smaller-by-design two lugs on a selfloader.

 

Don't delude yourself into thinking "a lug is a lug". They're not the same across the board.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've been away due to Ike, and I'm surprised this thread is still running.

 

 

..... Lugs are not created equal. I wasn't referring to the 2 massive lugs on a .338 as being the same as the 2 large lugs and 1 small lug of the .308. I was just asking more questions.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

[SaigaNoobie 66]

LOL JUggs.

[gunnysmith 4]

[kresk 10,063]

"My father worked in profanity the way other artists might work in oils or clay. It was his true medium, a master."

Sounds like a Jean Shepherd quote.

[6500rpm 670]

Bottom line is that there's no gain in removing....None! If there were 20 things I could do to improve the guns performance, dicking with the locking lug wouldn't be one of them. Concentrate on what counts and gives you performance gains. I highly doubt your ever going to out-shoot the cycle rate FWIW.

[gunnysmith 4]

"My father worked in profanity the way other artists might work in oils or clay. It was his true medium, a master."

Sounds like a Jean Shepherd quote.

From "A Christmas Story" scene when the furnace blew up.

[gunnysmith 4]

Hmm I see. Good information Gunny.

You're welcome.

If some time later you wish to build a pistol caliber based, gas operated, AK to take advantage of the less expensive ammo (7.62 X 25) on the market, we'll discuss peak pressure delay.

You can get your grinder out then,

Edited September 19, 2008 by gunnysmith

[kresk 10,063]

"My father worked in profanity the way other artists might work in oils or clay. It was his true medium, a master."

Sounds like a Jean Shepherd quote.

From "A Christmas Story" scene when the furnace blew up.

Yep--Shepherd wrote the original short story that the movie is based on. He used to have a nightly radio program on WOR in New York City that I used to listen to when I was a kid.

[Saigaczech 9]

"My father worked in profanity the way other artists might work in oils or clay. It was his true medium, a master."

Sounds like a Jean Shepherd quote.

From "A Christmas Story" scene when the furnace blew up.

Yep--Shepherd wrote the original short story that the movie is based on. He used to have a nightly radio program on WOR in New York City that I used to listen to when I was a kid.

Is WOR still around? I remember getting that station when I was growing up. Ahh, the pre-cable days when every person had to jiggle rabbit ears just so...... Great movie. I never got my Red Ryder BB gun though...

[Bad Bob 0]

...It also illustrates what can happen if critical dimensions or changes

to critical components are inserted into the equation.

 

Amen to that!

 

Allow me to provide another example. A few years back, I built a 'compliant' AK, using a name-brand US-made 'compliance' receiver, a 'compliance' fire control group, sufficient other 'compliance' parts to stay legal, and a low mileage AMD-65 kit with matching numbers. Not being a purist, I shortened a Bulgy gas tube (with HG retainers) so I could mount an upper hand guard (this was a common modification discussed over at The AKFiles at the time).

 

Everything went together very nicely (it was not my first AK build, and I had built several FALs before I got interested in AKs). Everything seemed to function fine when cycling the action by hand. Took it to the range to function fire, and on the second round, it doubled (I had five rounds in the magazine - won't do that again).

 

Turns out that, on recoil, the bolt carrier wasn't always depressing the hammer far enough for the disconnector to lock the hammer back, which allowed the hammer to follow the bolt/bolt carrier forward. The cause of this malfunction was probably a combination of:

 

(1) Using the wrong gas tube. The AMD-65 piston was significantly shorter than a stock AK piston, and (IIRC) the head of the AMD piston recoiled out of the ribbed portion of the Bulgy gas tube, possibly allowing the bolt carrier to 'wobble' as it passed over the hammer;

 

(2) Using a 'compliance' receiver. Even though the manufacturer was extremely respectable (they actually purchased the offending receiver & parts kit from me to evaluate, after the malfunction), it appeared to me (after measuring several AK receivers from different manufacturers with a micrometer) that the rails may have been attached too close to the top of the receiver, which would allow the bolt carrier to pass over the hammer higher than it was supposed to; and

 

(3) Also potentially influencing the situation were a used (just slightly worn, but still used) parts kit, and the 'compliance' FCG (which, by the way, was also name-brand).

 

Bottom line is this - one or more tiny changes produced a very big result. Who the heck would figure that swapping a gas tube could contribute to a potentially dangerous (even fatal) malfunction? Or that using 'compliance' parts from respected manufacturers could do the same? But add enough non-factory tolerances together, and it's entirely possible to get a non-factory result.

 

All of which is why I love Saigas. The bolt/bolt carrier/receiver/etc. are all installed, head spaced & tested at the factory. Do I use 'compliance' parts for the FCG? Sure - but that's the only change to the mechanism, so there isn't the same potential for slightly 'out-of-spec' parts adding up to an accident.

 

(Did I mention it? I love Saigas! ;>)