Vultite 57 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 well here it is, for reasons i'm not gonna state i'm asking your thoughts about non-lethal defense and what you would prefer to use IF that was the ONLY option you had, i was looking at this....seems like a good idea, hope not a gimmick.... http://www.psproducts.com/products_psprodu...STKNUCKLES.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Those are illegal in Texas. Probably illegal in a few other places, too. I carry a kubotan key chain. If you want something with more options, look for an ASP key holder. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vultite 57 Posted October 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 texas is 100% legal to stun devices, which includes the blast knuckles.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 texas is 100% legal to stun devices, which includes the blast knuckles.... "Stun devices" yes, but not the 'knuckles'. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 I like a good old fashioned, low tech, cane. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 I prefer staying as far away from the threat as possible, weapons that require me to get close to them aren't very practical. Any stun-guns with fixed electrodes are close to useless to me. Also, what happens if the threat is heavily clothed? I would look at that OC spray that is effective at relatively long distances or a taser. Skip the toy and get some OC. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 ... Skip the toy and get some OC. OC does not work on everyone. It is only an inconvenience for me. I have been sprayed 15-20 times and it has never stopped me from doing what I needed to do. I ran 3 miles one time after being sprayed 8 minutes earlier. Just keep in mind it is not real substitute for an impact weapon, or a firearm. It is a good tool, but I do not even bother to carry it personally and I can get stronger mixs then non-LE. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 ... Skip the toy and get some OC. OC does not work on everyone. It is only an inconvenience for me. I have been sprayed 15-20 times and it has never stopped me from doing what I needed to do. I ran 3 miles one time after being sprayed 8 minutes earlier. Just keep in mind it is not real substitute for an impact weapon, or a firearm. It is a good tool, but I do not even bother to carry it personally and I can get stronger mixs then non-LE. Good point, neither do I. Obliviously anything short of a bullet to the CNS is questionable, but it's nice to have options. I've never experienced being sprayed with OC, so I really don't know how effective it is, first hand. I assume you were sprayed as part of your training? If so, was anybody incapacitated? What do you carry when off duty? Unfortunately, hitting someone with a stick or a cane may be considered deadly force and it is illegal to carry a "club" in some jurisdictions. If one was to carry a cane even though they don't need it, and got into an altercation, It wouldn't surprise me if they were charged with something. I don't think it would happen where I live, but who knows? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kg4chm 0 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 It depends on the situation I guess. If its for the home then maybe 12ga shells with the stabilized bean bags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JCS05Rubi 0 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 In Maryland, CCW is illegal unless you carry lots of cash for business or you have 3+ death threats recorded by the State Police, so I have been looking at Less than lethal myself. Bullet Proof Vests are illegal in Baltimore, so that's out. Tasers are illegal in Baltimore, and DC too I believe, so that is out. I have been looking at Kimber's Guardian Angel as well as there other product, I believe it is called the JPX? The Guardian Angel is a $40 2 shot OC spray that runs about 13 ft and 90MPH, and just a smidge bigger than a pack of cigs. It also has a small safety and belt clip. The JPX is a handgun style product, 2 shot but has replaceable "magazines," runs 270MPH and good for 21ft. I think I am going to pick up the Guardian Angel first. As far as the stun gun knuckles go, thats probably a good idea but I see two problems. One, you have to be point blank to use them. Meaning, they can be used against you, as opposed the the "distance" style tasers. Two, a lot of states have brass knuckle style weapons as illegal, and these may be crossing that line. Three, a lot of states have tasers themselves as illegal, so you want to look into that as well. Four, It is going to take some time to get them onto your hand, and again, you need to be point blank to use them. Having that kind of time at that range is kind of sketchy. Three, they look bulky. Where are you going to put them? I was stuck to a good quality taser with a belt holser in MHO. Something that shoots out a little bit, rather than needing to be right next to someone/something. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cellsworth 21 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 ... Skip the toy and get some OC. OC does not work on everyone. It is only an inconvenience for me. I have been sprayed 15-20 times and it has never stopped me from doing what I needed to do. I ran 3 miles one time after being sprayed 8 minutes earlier. Just keep in mind it is not real substitute for an impact weapon, or a firearm. It is a good tool, but I do not even bother to carry it personally and I can get stronger mixs then non-LE. I agree with these points. I have been sprayed with OC directly in the eyes at a range of about 3 feet on a couple of occasions, and I was still able to function. It was very unpleasant, and it did impair my functioning, but it was not completely debilitating. A few people are hardly affected at all. Azrial is also correct that OC spray is not an effective substitute for a more decisive weapon when such a thing is necessary. However, I nonetheless feel that OC spray is a good choice for a non-lethal defensive tool. In most defensive situations in public, the aim is to create an opportunity for you to get away, rather than to stand and fight. In most cases, OC spray will be sufficiently effective to help you to escape. OC spray delivery systems can be very compact, and are easy to use with little training. They are also generally legal. Tasers can be very effective, but they have some drawbacks. First, they only work if both barbs are is place. Second, they only work while current is being applied, which requires the user to stick around to do that. Third, there may be legal issues in some places. Impact weapons can be handy when you have to stand and fight, but that is usually a bad idea. Impact weapons that are classified as clubs are generally illegal for carry in public. The same is true of "brass knuckles." Canes work, and are legal, but they are often impractical for people due to size and just "not looking right" (e.g., a younger person with no mobility impairment dressed in shorts and a t-shirt would look really strange with a cane). Some impact weapons, especially the really small ones, require a considerable amount of training to be much more effective than bare hands. Also, depending upon the manner of their use, impact weapons can be viewed as deadly weapons for legal purposes. Carry a gun when you can do so legally. Otherwise, OC spray is a pretty good option for the purposes outlined in the OP. Staying fit also really helps. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vultite 57 Posted October 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 well the blast knuckles have a carry pouch on your belt with a quick release, so you slide a few fingers in the openings and just pull out, so far from every seller i've seen on the knuckles they are considered a stun device and not a taser or a "brass knuckle" type weapon, so legal in most states, i'm gonna look into the kimber spray but i also know first hand that there are a lot of people who have tolerences to it and doesn't do much but piss them off. As the stun devices, i dunno, i've been "stunned" myself and all i felt was pain then a LOT of anger, so this pretty much all sucks for me. Of course i carry a gun when allowed but this certain situation its not....i'll keep looking, thanks for the ideas guys Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 I used to run night calls to repair elevators for DC public housing. "It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6". Bear spray or electronic ticklers do not work on crack heads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
frick 3 Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 In PA, the use of non lethal weapons, or lethal weapons are both considered "Offensive weapons" unless used in a circumstance where you are in imminent bodily harm, and have already attempted to flee, if possible. Meaning, that if the circumstances merit using ANY weapon, it makes no difference whether the force is lethal or not. We have no "castle doctrine" unlike Florida and some other states. Gonna mace that car jacker, you may as well shoot him in the face with your Judge and birdshot. While it may be easier to carry a non lethal item, you are not allowed to use it for non lethal circumstances. Some guy is road raging you, and you can drive away, but instead mace him, you are probably going to be the one arrested. You better have a smashed in window, and he better have a club in his hand, and be stuck in traffic, before you escalate the situation. The bad part, is that in some cases, a lesser threshold for the use of some force, may save a few lives, instead, for multiple reasons, you are better off killing the attacker, including the civil suits that may follow, even if you are found justified in using the deadly force. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 I assume you were sprayed as part of your training? Yes, but I have also been sprayed many times by over anxious rookies. They get this stuff and they just can wait to hose some badguy down that is really resisting. The problem is they usually spray themselves, and everybody else! This is a problem for non-cops as well. If this stuff effects you badly understand that a wind gust, back blast, or a confined space may treat you to a dose of your own medicine. Imagine you and your new attacker pal writhing around on the ground, snoting, crying , clutching and swinging wildly at each other blindly! Sound like fun? No? Well it happens, a lot. If so, was anybody incapacitated? During training I see that most people are incapacitated to varying degrees, some severely. To the point that they need EMS, even though in is SOP in most jurisdictions to call them anytime anyone is sprayed. The guy that it has little effect on is the rarity. However, these numbers shift radically when the anointed one is high, insane or is just one of those types that just will not fricking stop for nothing once they get their little heart set on something! These folks are walking your streets. So, the odds are on your side, but, do you feel luckily, I mean do you! I mean you have already been attacked once today, and what are the odds of that? I am not a "lucky" man. What do you carry when off duty? A Glock 20 or 21, a ASP, a pair of SAP gloves and a AK in the trunk, but I am a "special needs" child with unique circumstances. Your mileage will vary. Unfortunately, hitting someone with a stick or a cane may be considered deadly force and it is illegal to carry a "club" in some jurisdictions. You bet your butt, literally! Spraying someone with OC, Tazeing them, or even punching them in the head is an assault or a battery depending on jurisdiction. Nothing more lethal then really really bad breath is permitted as a method of getting rid of people who you just feel cramp your style or look at your women the wrong way. If they are not a serious threat to your life or person, or that of another, you can not use force against them. Frankly for you as a citizen, if you can justify using a less then lethal solution, you can usually justify using a firearm. If one was to carry a cane even though they don't need it, and got into an altercation, It wouldn't surprise me if they were charged with something. If you use any less then lethal or lethal weapon you could get charged with something, Read and understand the laws of your state as they apply to you. However even if you do everything exactly right you may still get charged and it may ruin your life. But, as has been said, better to be tried by twelve, then carried by six. HTH! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Was it Clint Eastwood who said "theres just something about a good piece of hickory"? I love a good old fashioned big stick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dullbert 0 Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 I carry a flash light with the batman insignia on it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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