Hey New Yorkers

[fenrir 0]

I need some opinions. I know that the RAA skeleton stock is legal in NY, what I'm trying to figure out is would a proper Dragunov style Butt Stock, like say a ATI Fiberforce Stock, be okay or would I'd be pushing my luck as the 'pistol' portion is to far under the receiver? I really want one in wood but I don't want to waste to much time looking for one, if I can't do it.

 

[Twinsen 86]

Yeah man. If they're one piece and there's a bar underneath, you're set. There's a Bulgarian one out there somewhere I have for my S-12 and I plan on getting another for my .410. I only ordered one, wondering how solid it'd be. It's rock solid.

[bshoop13 0]

Using something like that would you have to play the parts game?

[fenrir 0]

Yeah man. If they're one piece and there's a bar underneath, you're set. There's a Bulgarian one out there somewhere I have for my S-12 and I plan on getting another for my .410. I only ordered one, wondering how solid it'd be. It's rock solid.

 

Twinsen, that's what I was thinking, but this is the Empire of NY after all

 

You wouldn't happen to have a link for the Bulgarian stock would you?

Edited January 15, 2009 by fenrir

[Alpha Kilo 42]

http://www.tickbitesupply.com/ak.html

 

Almost at the bottom

[fenrir 0]

Using something like that would you have to play the parts game?

 

As far as i know the only time you "need" to play the counting game is if you use a mag over 5 rounds.

 

That ATI stock (US made) would count as one part and with a AGP mag (3 parts) you'd be good to go if your barrel isn't threaded, if your barrel is threaded (mine is) you still need one more part.

 

Near as I can tell, from the pictures anyway, it wouldn't matter as the trigger would need to move forward, which is my concern as I'm sure some judge somewhere would call that a pistol grip, but if I can use it I'd do the Tapco FCG and get 3 more parts

 

That ATI stock is for an AK not a saiga so you have to mod it to get it to work, there's thread about an AK stock mod someone did...... ah found it...

 

Thanx to boxorain for this: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=33476

 

edited to add this advice is worth what you paid for it

Edited January 15, 2009 by fenrir

[fenrir 0]

http://www.tickbitesupply.com/ak.html

 

Almost at the bottom

 

Damn for that price I have to get one, come on pay-day

 

thanx Alpha Kilo

[bshoop13 0]

If you move the fcg forward you wouldn't have to do anything to the stock.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Bilo

[fenrir 0]

If you move the fcg forward you wouldn't have to do anything to the stock.

 

LOL, I probably should have read that stock mod thread again, before saying anything. Someday I'll learn, but I'm not going to count on it

[Alpha Kilo 42]

http://www.tickbitesupply.com/ak.html

 

Almost at the bottom

 

Damn for that price I have to get one, come on pay-day

 

thanx Alpha Kilo

 

No prob

 

Keep in mind that you'd have to move the FCG to use the one I linked you to. It'd look something like this

 

Edited January 15, 2009 by Alpha Kilo

[fenrir 0]

http://www.tickbitesupply.com/ak.html

 

Almost at the bottom

 

Damn for that price I have to get one, come on pay-day

 

thanx Alpha Kilo

 

No prob

 

Keep in mind that you'd have to move the FCG to use the one I linked you to. It'd look something like this

 

 

Damn that's nice, I'm still kinda worried that it would be called a pistol grip here in the Evil Empire State

[bshoop13 0]

Thats a beaut . Im hoping to have enough of my tax return left this year to get a saiga 12. If I do thats what I want.

[Twinsen 86]

Oh yeah, that's the stock. It's made of some really tough shit. I've held some cheapo plastic SKS - 10/22 - AK stocks before that weren't as beefy as this one.

[Alpha Kilo 42]

In a weapons retention situation, you could bash the shit out of someones face with this thing, it's not coming apart!

 

 

"I aint never seen a head come apart like that before" (what Viet Nam war movie was that from?)

 

fenir, I've read it'sa grey area up there, but Mak 90's and the corny looking romanian ones were considered to be sporting because they had those ugly thumbhole stocks.... There's people that vehemently argue both sides of the legality. My OPINION is that if you get caught doing a bunch of other crap, they might tack it onto the list, but if it's the only thing your doing......please. But it might be worth it to get the stock, take it by itself to where you shoot and ask around if i'ts a pistol grip or not. (without saying what your going to put it on at 1st)

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Thats a beaut . Im hoping to have enough of my tax return left this year to get a saiga 12. If I do thats what I want.

 

That's my plan too.

 

I received an unexpected Christmas bonus from work, and was going to use toward an S12.................but of course, I started buying mags, ammo and other stuff. Before I knew it, the money was gone.

[lipadj46 2]

I had posted this a couple weeks ago. I think it is illegal when it is in the forward position ala AK47 and Dragonuv on a converted Saiga because it is banned by the Assault Weapon Ban. When you have the Skeleton stock made for unconverted Saigas then it is legal. Be careful with this.

 

This stock would be legal as it is bolt on to a unconverted Saiga:

 

https://www.gilbertsguns.com/Stocks/Saiga/R...letonized+Stock

 

I have this on order.

Edited January 16, 2009 by lipadj46

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I had posted this a couple weeks ago. I think it is illegal when it is in the forward position ala AK47 and Dragonuv on a converted Saiga because it is banned by the Assault Weapon Ban. When you have the Skeleton stock made for unconverted Saigas then it is legal. Be careful with this.

 

This stock would be legal as it is bolt on to a unconverted Saiga:

 

https://www.gilbertsguns.com/Stocks/Saiga/R...letonized+Stock

 

I have this on order.

It was banned by the federal AWB. The Dragonov stock was specificly noted(probably to stop importation of certain firearms) In the federal law. None of those rulings are noted in the state law, and in fact NY redefines many things like "high capacity" on its own in there. I believe they have Defined a pistol grip just fine on thier own, Making a seperate definition, in a "NEW" law. The state and federal laws while very similar have to be treated as different entities, and state and federal laws, and each can make its own definitions for its own effect.

 

Think about it, anytime a law overlapses another law, you can get charged for 2 seperate infractions, thats becaws you did something that violated 2 seperate laws, and they can see what if any of the laws you broke "sticks"

 

Fun with grey areas.

[lipadj46 2]

More importantly if you convert a Saiga into an AK47 it becomes an assault weapon in New York State. The dragonuv type stock that fits the unconverted Saiga is legal as per the New York state assault weapon ban. This is the advice of my father's attorney (his hunting buddy) and my FFL but use your own judgement of course no one wants an ass pounding in state prison because of a stock.

Edited January 16, 2009 by lipadj46

[boxorain 0]

I'm just speculating here, but I would think that if a judge or a bureaucrat in a jurisdiction that prohibited pistol grips needed to decide whether some odd-looking contraption should count as a pistol grip, the way they would go about it would be to first find out what it is about pistol grips that got them prohibited, and then decide whether the new contraption presents that same problem. I have no idea why a state legislature would think that a pistol grip is a bad thing. My only guess is that they might think a pistol grip is a temptation to one-handed operation, which would in turn produce poorly controlled fire. If that's the reason (and I stress that I have no idea), then the judge or bureaucrat would probably ask whether the odd-looking contraption in front of them would likewise present a danger of poorly controlled fire due to one-handed operation, and if so, would probably determine that the contraption is a pistol grip.

 

Does anyone have a clear idea why pistol grips are singled out as a bad feature (in NY or anywhere else)?

[bshoop13 0]

I'm just speculating here, but I would think that if a judge or a bureaucrat in a jurisdiction that prohibited pistol grips needed to decide whether some odd-looking contraption should count as a pistol grip, the way they would go about it would be to first find out what it is about pistol grips that got them prohibited, and then decide whether the new contraption presents that same problem. I have no idea why a state legislature would think that a pistol grip is a bad thing. My only guess is that they might think a pistol grip is a temptation to one-handed operation, which would in turn produce poorly controlled fire. If that's the reason (and I stress that I have no idea), then the judge or bureaucrat would probably ask whether the odd-looking contraption in front of them would likewise present a danger of poorly controlled fire due to one-handed operation, and if so, would probably determine that the contraption is a pistol grip.

 

Does anyone have a clear idea why pistol grips are singled out as a bad feature (in NY or anywhere else)?

 

Their is no clear reason, you can have them on a saiga rifle but not on a saiga shotgun

[Nailbomb 10,221]

More importantly if you convert a Saiga into an AK47 it becomes an assault weapon in New York State. The dragonuv type stock that fits the unconverted Saiga is legal as per the New York state assault weapon ban. This is the advice of my father's attorney (his hunting buddy) and my FFL but use your own judgement of course no one wants an ass pounding in state prison because of a stock.

That statement can be very misleading. A saiga basicly IS a AK-47, converting it only moves the trigger, and that action alone has no meaning in the state AWB. A Protruding pistol grip is stated, and specificly defined, but even with the issues on a federal level, Any mention of a thumbhole stock was never put into the later law.

 

As far as the recomendations they have nothing but your best interests in mind i'm sure, but you will find when you ask FFL's lawyers and police, many of them will say NO due to the fact that this is considered the safe rout.

 

The dragonov stock was banned in a now defunct law- IE: does not apply. And even when it was banned they named it specificly, and never the bulgarian, the SLR, or many other thumbhole style stocks available at the time. And this is all based on a Federal law that no longer applys.

 

But then maybe i'm biased becaws i have the bulgarian stock on my S-12

Edited January 16, 2009 by Nailbomb

[fenrir 0]

I had posted this a couple weeks ago. I think it is illegal when it is in the forward position ala AK47 and Dragonuv on a converted Saiga because it is banned by the Assault Weapon Ban. When you have the Skeleton stock made for unconverted Saigas then it is legal. Be careful with this.

 

This stock would be legal as it is bolt on to a unconverted Saiga:

 

https://www.gilbertsguns.com/Stocks/Saiga/R...letonized+Stock

 

I have this on order.

 

I saw your post and another by Nailbomb in the 992/legal section this morning, while looking for something completely different. Link to Nailbomb's thread if you want it.

 

I bought the RAA skeleton stock and it is problematic for ME, my hands are apparently the size of hams and as such don't fit the grip, plus if you use the cheek rest you can't use the stock sites.

 

If you read my first post, the 'grip' being forward and under the receiver is the reason I started this thread. I'm not concerned about the AWB as it expired. What I am concerned about is The Evil Empire State's rule of two and the S12 having a removable mag already has one strike for the word go. As far as I've been able to find out the Bulgarian stock is considered a thumbhole stock, granted it is one big assed thumbhole but that is it's classification, the Dragonuv stock on the other hand was classified as a pistol grip stock, by whatever crack monkey that made those distinctions at the time.

 

 

Admin/Mods please feel free to move this thread to the 922/legal section if you feel it belongs there

[fenrir 0]

I'm just speculating here, but I would think that if a judge or a bureaucrat in a jurisdiction that prohibited pistol grips needed to decide whether some odd-looking contraption should count as a pistol grip, the way they would go about it would be to first find out what it is about pistol grips that got them prohibited, and then decide whether the new contraption presents that same problem. I have no idea why a state legislature would think that a pistol grip is a bad thing. My only guess is that they might think a pistol grip is a temptation to one-handed operation, which would in turn produce poorly controlled fire. If that's the reason (and I stress that I have no idea), then the judge or bureaucrat would probably ask whether the odd-looking contraption in front of them would likewise present a danger of poorly controlled fire due to one-handed operation, and if so, would probably determine that the contraption is a pistol grip.

 

Does anyone have a clear idea why pistol grips are singled out as a bad feature (in NY or anywhere else)?

 

 

Bad drugs would be my only guess.

[Etek 32]

In a weapons retention situation, you could bash the shit out of someones face with this thing, it's not coming apart!

 

 

"I aint never seen a head come apart like that before" (what Viet Nam war movie was that from?)

 

fenir, I've read it'sa grey area up there, but Mak 90's and the corny looking romanian ones were considered to be sporting because they had those ugly thumbhole stocks.... There's people that vehemently argue both sides of the legality. My OPINION is that if you get caught doing a bunch of other crap, they might tack it onto the list, but if it's the only thing your doing......please. But it might be worth it to get the stock, take it by itself to where you shoot and ask around if i'ts a pistol grip or not. (without saying what your going to put it on at 1st)

 

 

Movie was 'Platoon'

[fenrir 0]

I'm just speculating here, but I would think that if a judge or a bureaucrat in a jurisdiction that prohibited pistol grips needed to decide whether some odd-looking contraption should count as a pistol grip, the way they would go about it would be to first find out what it is about pistol grips that got them prohibited, and then decide whether the new contraption presents that same problem. I have no idea why a state legislature would think that a pistol grip is a bad thing. My only guess is that they might think a pistol grip is a temptation to one-handed operation, which would in turn produce poorly controlled fire. If that's the reason (and I stress that I have no idea), then the judge or bureaucrat would probably ask whether the odd-looking contraption in front of them would likewise present a danger of poorly controlled fire due to one-handed operation, and if so, would probably determine that the contraption is a pistol grip.

 

Does anyone have a clear idea why pistol grips are singled out as a bad feature (in NY or anywhere else)?

 

Their is no clear reason, you can have them on a saiga rifle but not on a saiga shotgun

 

Yes there is a clear reason, NY State has the "rule of two" for evil features, a removable mag counts on a semi-automatic shotgun but not on rifles.

[fenrir 0]

In a weapons retention situation, you could bash the shit out of someones face with this thing, it's not coming apart!

 

 

"I aint never seen a head come apart like that before" (what Viet Nam war movie was that from?)

 

fenir, I've read it'sa grey area up there, but Mak 90's and the corny looking romanian ones were considered to be sporting because they had those ugly thumbhole stocks.... There's people that vehemently argue both sides of the legality. My OPINION is that if you get caught doing a bunch of other crap, they might tack it onto the list, but if it's the only thing your doing......please. But it might be worth it to get the stock, take it by itself to where you shoot and ask around if i'ts a pistol grip or not. (without saying what your going to put it on at 1st)

 

Alpha Kilo, most thing in the Evil Empire State are shades of gray as it's much easier to do what you want then, just look at what little Mikey Bloomberg and Wall St, gets away with.

 

I ordered that stock, at that price I should have gotten two, but I have other things on my lust list That's a good idea about asking around, but I think I might just ask a few anti guns folks instead of people at the range, as I assume most gun people would call it a thumbhole, my concern would be dealing with an anti gun LEO or judge as that would be when the real problems/fun will start

[lipadj46 2]

That statement can be very misleading. A saiga basicly IS a AK-47, converting it only moves the trigger, and that action alone has no meaning in the state AWB.

 

Read the entire law please unless you enjoy the thought of your advice leading to someone getting skull effed in Attica, even if it is a remote possibility:

 

AKs are specifically called out as banned. You cannot own an AK in New York. A Saiga is not an AK but once you convert it then it becomes an AK (Kalashnikov type) and hence illegal:

 

"any of the weapons, or functioning frames or receivers of such weapons, or copies or duplicates of such weapons, in any caliber, known as (i) Norinco, Mitchell,

and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (All Models)"

 

I guess the Saiga receivers are not considered AKs in their configuration but you can sure change them into a Kalashnikov style and having a dragonuv stock on a converted Saiga will be illegal in NY even if it is a thumbhole type stock. People talk of conversions like you undo some screws and bang you have an AK. It is not that easy you need to drill out pins and file off the trigger guard rivets and install a whole new FCG. I am assuming that is why Saigas are legal in NY even though they are based on an AK receiver. Believe me I bet if there is a federal ban or NY updates the list the Saiga and especially the Saiga 12 will be on there.

 

You can ask around where you live but the dragonuv stock is not the problem it is the fact that it is on a converted Saiga. I myself am playing it safe and getting the bolt on Saiga Skeleton stock and even then if you get caught in the wrong situation I'm sure a judge could call that a pistol grip too.

Edited January 16, 2009 by lipadj46

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Of course they are going to ban them if they ever update them, but with as strong as the publics response was to the original we're hoping they leave it alone. As far as it being hard, its not. 922r another federal law is still very much in place, and requires we replace things like the FCG to put a weapon in any kind of a "non-sporting configuration", which i don't believe is very well defined. As far as the law you mention, It specificly states Frames and recievers. You do little to nothing to the reciever to convert. Furthermore M-16's are listed in the same way, as well as clones, and gives a list. Simply haveing one that has "sporter" stamped on it instead of AR-15 somehow makes these weapons legal to sell. The reciever from a normal M-16 to a Ar-15 to a sporter are identical. The FCG, and bolt housing however ARE different.

 

Aside from that, its all just...

 

"Whats in a name?"

[lipadj46 2]

Believe me I don't agree with the law and go back and forth on this whether I should convert my Saiga 12 and put a dragonuv stock on it. That whole list of rifles that are banned does confuse me because it lists Colt AR15's but I see them all the time as long as they don't have a threaded barrel or FS. I just believe that if I do that and I get in a situation where a LEO takes a close look at the shotgun (out hunting on state land, traffic stop, home invasion, or at the range) with the bolt on stock I can say it just a bolt on thumbhole stock and I did nothing to change the legal configuration from the factory. But if I have a converted shotgun then it gets a bit harder and I will end up paying a lawyer a truckload of money to argue these nuances for me in court.

 

Everyone is free though to push the envelope as far as they want and if we are talking a shotgun that is going to stay in a safe or under a bed and never get fired or used for hunting then what are the chances of ever getting caught. My wife and daughter would be pretty pissed at me though if I knowingly did anything that would jeopardize our happy little existence here.

 

Edit: Damn that Bulgarian Skeleton stock is pretty nice and for $19... damn you guys have me flip flopping back to the dark side. I'm not sure if I will ever use it but I ordered one just to have if I ever really get the bug to try a conversion and I here of them becoming more popular in NY. PS I hate you all

Edited January 16, 2009 by lipadj46

[Twinsen 86]

In CT, AK-47 type means AK-47 or AK-M type in 7.62x39. Nothing more, nothing less. We cannot get any AK in 7.62, and we can get any AK not in 7.62 (as long as it meets other criteria). Sporterized, anything not 7.62x39 is legal here.

 

Moving your trigger forward means jack shit in CT. Considering you guys are using the same laws and are able to buy the same guns, I have to assume it is the same. You're reading into this crap too much.