David Mark 2,452 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I finally have all the necessary parts for my first RESTORATION of my S12. I decided to jump in with both feet and move the FCG. Even with no experience. I would not even be considering this restoration if not for the knowledge gained from this site and the experts here. I have the Tromix modified FCG which comes with the shepherds crook but I have heard a lot of guys use the Krebs retainer. I am a complete novice at this but wish to do the best job possible. I just was wondering the advantages/disadvantages to the Krebs part. Thanks All. "My eyebrows aint plucked there's a gun in my truck. Honey I'm still a guy" Brad Paisley Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 If you order the Krebs retainer directly from them, they will rip you off on shipping & handling. I got one in the mail about 3 months ago, they charged $10 for shipping, the envelope arrived with a $1 stamp on it. I won't order from them again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulry 50 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I modified the existing retainer and I think it worked great! I'll try to post photos. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I'd avoid the plate and go with a spring. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Doc S 0 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I've used "e" clips in all of my conversions and have never had a problem with'em. You can get them at just about any hardware store for .15-.39 cents each... God Bless, Doc S Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cma g21 3 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I've used "e" clips in all of my conversions and have never had a problem with'em.You can get them at just about any hardware store for .15-.39 cents each... God Bless, Doc S +1 on the E-Clips. I've used them on three conversions so far. If you're planning to order anything from Dinzag, he sells them 3 for 50 cents. http://www.dinzagarms.com/misc_parts/misc_parts.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Mark 2,452 Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 So I would attach an E-Clip inside the receiver on each pin or just the trigger pin? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 E-clips suck. They suck going in and they suck when they come out (at the range, at the 3-gun match, etc) If you're not gonna use a good ol' commie designed retaining option, use hitch pins instead. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I just modify the original retainer and use it. I'm a cheapskate, what can I say. Actually, I hate to just throw away perfectly good parts if I can find a way to use them. I'll have to take a pic and post it here in the next day or so, I've got some guns in process and have some modified ones out, as well as a couple stock ones where I tried out a couple plates. It just seems that the plates end up needing a little fitting, and still just don't look right to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Mark 2,452 Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Maybe I am over thinking this. Thanks for the pic nalioth. I am sweating this restoration a bit but feel good that I now have all the 'required' parts. Seams like everything is on backorder these days. Hope I can pick some brains here in the spring when my garage warms up and I can use my drill press without my hand freezing to the damn thing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Mark 2,452 Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I just modify the original retainer and use it. I'm a cheapskate, what can I say. Actually, I hate to just throw away perfectly good parts if I can find a way to use them. I'll have to take a pic and post it here in the next day or so, I've got some guns in process and have some modified ones out, as well as a couple stock ones where I tried out a couple plates. It just seems that the plates end up needing a little fitting, and still just don't look right to me. Thanks Gunfixr, some pics would be great. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdeitch 32 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) I just modify the original retainer and use it. I'm a cheapskate, what can I say. Actually, I hate to just throw away perfectly good parts if I can find a way to use them. I'll have to take a pic and post it here in the next day or so, I've got some guns in process and have some modified ones out, as well as a couple stock ones where I tried out a couple plates. It just seems that the plates end up needing a little fitting, and still just don't look right to me. +1 Gunfixr I've done several conversions be reusing/reshaping the original spring. I took a good pic of the modified stock spring on some grid paper, knowiing someday someone would ask. I will post the pic in the morning. Here's the pic: Edited January 30, 2009 by JeffD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakko 10 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I was using a set of hitch pins and had it pop off on me the other day. Aggravating. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cma g21 3 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I was using a set of hitch pins and had it pop off on me the other day. Aggravating. A drop of Loctite 620 or super glue may help. I use a drop of Loctite 620 on each E-Clip and have yet to have one pop out (but they can still be removed if needed). I don't see why it wouldn't work with the hitch pins (degrease first). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) I was using a set of hitch pins and had it pop off on me the other day. Aggravating. A drop of Loctite 620 or super glue may help. I use a drop of Loctite 620 on each E-Clip and have yet to have one pop out (but they can still be removed if needed). I don't see why it wouldn't work with the hitch pins (degrease first). The pivot pins are designed to rotate freely. Please do not use loctite. What you should do is use the proper size of hitch pin. Edited January 29, 2009 by nalioth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yellowcarbon 4 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 The Krebs plate are so worth the money. They are easy to use and make changing the FCG a breeze. The hardest part is putting back on the bolt hold open spring. I usually buy my stuff from Krebs at the SAR show here in Phoenix. I always keep one of the retaining plates in my stash box and buy them before I need them. Or I will order one when I put in an order. $10 shipping is kind of stiff on a $9 part, but it's part of the game. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superhawk138 202 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I just modify the original retainer and use it. I'm a cheapskate, what can I say. Actually, I hate to just throw away perfectly good parts if I can find a way to use them. I'll have to take a pic and post it here in the next day or so, I've got some guns in process and have some modified ones out, as well as a couple stock ones where I tried out a couple plates. It just seems that the plates end up needing a little fitting, and still just don't look right to me. I'm with you on this one. Just make one out of the original. I bend mine to work like this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cma g21 3 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 The pivot pins are designed to rotate freely. Please do not use loctite. What you should do is use the proper size of hitch pin. You may be correct. But, I wonder if it's critical that the pins rotate. If so, then a warning likely needs to be issued about using the B-Square AK scope mount. It mounts using two longer pins to replace the trigger and hammer pins. The B-Square pins don't rotate (they're threaded and the mount is bolted to them). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Mark 2,452 Posted January 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I just modify the original retainer and use it. I'm a cheapskate, what can I say. Actually, I hate to just throw away perfectly good parts if I can find a way to use them. I'll have to take a pic and post it here in the next day or so, I've got some guns in process and have some modified ones out, as well as a couple stock ones where I tried out a couple plates. It just seems that the plates end up needing a little fitting, and still just don't look right to me. I'm with you on this one. Just make one out of the original. I bend mine to work like this. Thanks for the illustration Hawk. Very helpful! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WardenWolf 6 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I prefer a retaining plate. I used one on my Saiga .223 conversion, and it could not have been easier. Easy to secure, easy to remove. And you don't have to take the stock off or use pliars to get it out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 The pivot pins are designed to rotate freely. Please do not use loctite. What you should do is use the proper size of hitch pin. You may be correct. But, I wonder if it's critical that the pins rotate. If so, then a warning likely needs to be issued about using the B-Square AK scope mount. It mounts using two longer pins to replace the trigger and hammer pins. The B-Square pins don't rotate (they're threaded and the mount is bolted to them). It's probably nothing to worry about, they were just designed that way, you know. If the pins don't rotate, the hammer and trigger can start to wear down a track in their respective pivot pins. If it wears a deep enough track, it can lead to a malfunctioning weapon. A guy went to federal prison because his AR15 malfunctioned a while back, if you'll remember. B-Square makes scope mounts, they don't make Kalashnikovs, and probably don't care about pivot pin wear. .....but do as you like. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cma g21 3 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 If the pins don't rotate, the hammer and trigger can start to wear down a track in their respective pivot pins. If it wears a deep enough track, it can lead to a malfunctioning weapon. A guy went to federal prison because his AR15 malfunctioned a while back, if you'll remember. Sounds logical. Might take quite a few firing cycles to become an issue, but definately something to watch out for. I checked out my Saigas, and even the one with the most rounds through it (an EAA imported Saiga 308 with over 2,000 rounds through it) shows no visible wear yet. Possibly because the trigger/disconnector unit has an inner sleeve that spreads out the contact area on the pin. On the other hand, I have a Century assembled WASR and the trigger/disconnector unit lacks the inner sleeve. I have fired it very little so far, but it seems the one most likely to show wear with hard use (if the pin doesn't rotate). It also has, by far, the worst trigger pull of all my AK's/Saigas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) If the pins don't rotate, the hammer and trigger can start to wear down a track in their respective pivot pins. If it wears a deep enough track, it can lead to a malfunctioning weapon. A guy went to federal prison because his AR15 malfunctioned a while back, if you'll remember. Sounds logical. Might take quite a few firing cycles to become an issue, but definately something to watch out for. I checked out my Saigas, and even the one with the most rounds through it (an EAA imported Saiga 308 with over 2,000 rounds through it) shows no visible wear yet. Possibly because the trigger/disconnector unit has an inner sleeve that spreads out the contact area on the pin. On the other hand, I have a Century assembled WASR and the trigger/disconnector unit lacks the inner sleeve. I have fired it very little so far, but it seems the one most likely to show wear with hard use (if the pin doesn't rotate). It also has, by far, the worst trigger pull of all my AK's/Saigas. If you don't use the B-Square AK scope mount or loctite your pins, it will never be an issue. Tapco is the only company providing a "convenience sleeve" design in their fire control groups. Everyone else offers Kalashnikov-spec FCGs. Edited January 29, 2009 by nalioth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulry 50 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) Hawk, I like your approch. I did it totally different. I cut off the short tail piece and a coil of the wound spring. I used a vise grip and bent a short curve on the other end (about 3/8") I slid in the spring from the rear between the grip screw block and the left inside of the reciever. As I fed it in I used a narrow needle nose pliers and led it under the trigger pin and forward as I pulled it up over the top of the hammer pin. At this point be sure the short curved end goes over the top and down the other side of the hammer pin (helps hold that end of the retainer) Last I plugged in the nylon hole plug from Dinzag Arms that retains the round coiled end (it is also held between the grip screw block) I have yet to really put it to the test. My first idea was to use a socket bolt to hold the coil but it was to damn tough to put the nut on it. If it tends to slip back, I would put more of a angle on the front end bend. Please checkout the attached photos. Hawk, Do you cut anything on yours and does the round coil end go through the safety latch? Frosty Edited January 29, 2009 by Fluid Power Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulry 50 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Did I get to excited? I saw the subject and I had to jump in. Sorry, didn't see it was Saiga-12. Mine is a .223 rifle. Is there a difference in pin layouts? If so can someone move me to Conversion section? Man, I'm even sober! Set me straight as I own all Saiga rifles, no shotguns. Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pdbh171 0 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I just modify the original retainer and use it. I'm a cheapskate, what can I say. Actually, I hate to just throw away perfectly good parts if I can find a way to use them. I am with you on that one.....as I too am preparing for my first convertion.... I see the trigger gaurds offered for sell...$45 and such...I am determined to "re-utilize" the one I already paid for. And good Russian steel non the less! (Sorry Tony) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 What you should do is use the proper size of hitch pin. Which is? And they're sold where? And OMG I LOVE THOSE THINGS. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HarvKY 72 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 If you order the Krebs retainer directly from them, they will rip you off on shipping & handling. I got one in the mail about 3 months ago, they charged $10 for shipping, the envelope arrived with a $1 stamp on it. I won't order from them again. Thats interesting. I was planning on getting a couple but guess Ill doublecheck with them first. Here's what is posted on the Krebs website right under their retainer piece: NOTE: Orders containing only trigger pin retaining plates will be shipped USPS Priority Mail at a flat rate of $6.00. Please select the UPS Ground shipping option. Shipping costs will be adjusted prior to shipment. HarvKY Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cma g21 3 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 If the pins don't rotate, the hammer and trigger can start to wear down a track in their respective pivot pins. If it wears a deep enough track, it can lead to a malfunctioning weapon. A guy went to federal prison because his AR15 malfunctioned a while back, if you'll remember. Do you know of a book, or internet site where I can find the design specs relating to this? I've searched, but with no luck. I spoke to a mechanical engineer about this, and he was sceptical (to put it mildly). I'd like to be able to point him towards the source where you got this information, if it's alright. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrWho 10 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 how many hitch pins do you need? 3? why is the original all i wire? is it better then 3 separate connections? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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