Leapers rail

[RABIDFOX50 6]

The Gods will smite thee for such actions. Leapers / UTG = AIRSOFT CRAP!

[Patriot12 11]

From the source, they are PRC rails.

 

Hello, Paul,

 

Thank you for writing to us. We appreciate your interest in our product.

 

The quad rail mount system you mentioned, MNT-HGSG12, is made from TAIWAN. The product is designed in the U.S. but manufactured overseas. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. Thank you!

 

Best regards,

 

James Huang

E-MAIL: Jhuang@leapers.com

Leapers,Inc.

32700 Capitol Street

Livonia,MI 48150

T: 734-542-1500 x 226

F: 734-542-7095

www.leapers.com

What do you mean PRC? Is that good or bad?

[52brandon 0]

PRC = People's Republic of China

[Patriot12 11]

PRC = People's Republic of China

So it's just like buying it from walmart.

[McDuck 0]

PRC = People's Republic of China

 

Taiwan = ROC aka Republic of China

 

ROC and PRC are different countries.

Edited April 19, 2009 by McDuck

[lipadj46 2]

You're comparing apples and oranges.

 

The US made rails are CNC machined from billet aluminum and will stand up to a lifetime of abuse. The Imported ones are crap, cast from from pot metal. Like most things in life, you get what you pay for.

 

It's machined from billet aluminum and made in China. The Leapers UTG side mounts are actually made with good fit and finish so we have reasonable expectations for good product. I don 't really want or need a quad so count me out. It's a shame our production capability in this country is so poor that we cannot produce many things that are good quality and affordable, just boutique high end stuff. Ah well, we sold out our manufacturing sector a long time ago and it will never return unfortunately.

 

Its china. And I'm not worried about $100 when our supreme chancellor just borrowed hundreds of billions from them on my behalf

Good to know your personal ethics are in line with the current administration.

 

Funny, and I guess you are going to tell me that under GW we did not borrow trillions of dollars from China to support his crazy assed spending spree? The Saiga is a Russian shotgun for christsake who cares it the fucking rail is made by a commie. 90% of manufactured goods you have bought in the past year are probably made there. Just the way it is I'm afraid and there is NOTHING we can do about it, ask Egypt, Rome, Great Britain, Spain, France, Germany and Russia and all the other past world leaders.

Edited April 16, 2009 by lipadj46

[Azrial 1,091]

I read recently that one of the European countries that are cam paining the AK, I think it was the Finns, are using the UTG for their issue service rifle. Not bad for "pot metal."

[Patriot12 11]

I read recently that one of the European countries that are cam paining the AK, I think it was the Finns, are using the UTG for their issue service rifle. Not bad for "pot metal."

I think that the Chaos quad rail would be better quality. Besides, how can you say no to a face like this?

[vintagedude88 16]

I still haven't taken delivery of my rail yet. The seller has not shipped nor has he charged my account at all. I'm sure by the time it finally does ship, Greg at Carolina Shooters Supply will have them as well. As for the other U.S. made products, I have no disrespect for them. I am sure it is a quality product but I am just not in the budget to purchase one of them. I'm just in the position where I am lucky to get what I can get.

 

Besides, keeping with the original vision of the Saiga, it is a simple gun of rudimentary construction which is why it is so durable and functional, so why would you want to put an accessory on it that has more engineering into it than the gun itself? Anyways as soon as it gets to me, which I don't know when...... we'll see how it hashes out.

[cvhanh20 1,052]

You're comparing apples and oranges.

 

The US made rails are CNC machined from billet aluminum and will stand up to a lifetime of abuse. The Imported ones are crap, cast from from pot metal. Like most things in life, you get what you pay for.

 

It's machined from billet aluminum and made in China. The Leapers UTG side mounts are actually made with good fit and finish so we have reasonable expectations for good product. I don 't really want or need a quad so count me out. It's a shame our production capability in this country is so poor that we cannot produce many things that are good quality and affordable, just boutique high end stuff. Ah well, we sold out our manufacturing sector a long time ago and it will never return unfortunately.

 

Its china. And I'm not worried about $100 when our supreme chancellor just borrowed hundreds of billions from them on my behalf

Good to know your personal ethics are in line with the current administration.

 

Funny, and I guess you are going to tell me that under GW we did not borrow trillions of dollars from China to support his crazy assed spending spree? The Saiga is a Russian shotgun for christsake who cares it the fucking rail is made by a commie. 90% of manufactured goods you have bought in the past year are probably made there. Just the way it is I'm afraid and there is NOTHING we can do about it, ask Egypt, Rome, Great Britain, Spain, France, Germany and Russia and all the other past world leaders.

Leapers will fill the lower end market, this is true, But they are not machined from billet aluminum, they are crapped out using the cheapest shit they can find, period. If you want a five dollar gun then go with leapers, knock yourself out. Its not that are manufacturing trades that are to blame, its the fact you won't work for $1.25 per day like people do in china, you can't, and nor can I. Quote" Just the way it is I'm afraid and there is NOTHING we can do about it" Sorry you feel that way, are you going to have that same attitude when they try and take your guns? As Americans we can turn this around, there are many numbers in the formula for success, example, when I started manufacturing Chaos rails, there was none other than a few Halo's floating around. So I brought a high quality rail system to the market at a fair market value, the fastest way I could, machined out of solid aluminum at a time when aluminum cost the highest in my life time. I crossed the tipping point four months back. I had to, in order to face both the demand, and competition. I've gone to an extruded rail system. Now this is where it gets interesting, I could have outsourced to china just like all these other assholes, but instead here's what I did. I researched and contacted people night and day, until I found a USA company who shares the same values I do. One who can push 6061 and hold the tolerances I demand, so that my new rail system will be less in cost and still retain 98% of its original strength characteristics. Sure the cost is more but it is helping to feed families like yours, you know in the USA, hell it may be your family. What difference does it make you say, well how many china representatives do you see here in this community answering your questions over and over, or able to call and talk to on the phone. Just how involved do you see these assholes getting in your community other than just taking your money and running, wake the fuck up. We have all allowed this to happen, its not the end my friend, its just the beginning, but sit on your hands attitude and do nothing is horse shit. I watched our manufacturing trade diminish for 24 yrs. Hell I'm not giving up, our forefathers don't and either am I. All I hear is bitching about how our country is going to hell and that china is taking over, but in the same breath these people will pay to the cause by buying cheap shitty shit from china, because people would rather have a little of everything, than something worth having. Its like cutting your own throat and whining about getting blood all over yourself! Not to mention if not for us USA manufactures you couldn't even own this weapon.

[Patriot12 11]

You're comparing apples and oranges.

 

The US made rails are CNC machined from billet aluminum and will stand up to a lifetime of abuse. The Imported ones are crap, cast from from pot metal. Like most things in life, you get what you pay for.

 

It's machined from billet aluminum and made in China. The Leapers UTG side mounts are actually made with good fit and finish so we have reasonable expectations for good product. I don 't really want or need a quad so count me out. It's a shame our production capability in this country is so poor that we cannot produce many things that are good quality and affordable, just boutique high end stuff. Ah well, we sold out our manufacturing sector a long time ago and it will never return unfortunately.

 

Its china. And I'm not worried about $100 when our supreme chancellor just borrowed hundreds of billions from them on my behalf

Good to know your personal ethics are in line with the current administration.

 

Funny, and I guess you are going to tell me that under GW we did not borrow trillions of dollars from China to support his crazy assed spending spree? The Saiga is a Russian shotgun for christsake who cares it the fucking rail is made by a commie. 90% of manufactured goods you have bought in the past year are probably made there. Just the way it is I'm afraid and there is NOTHING we can do about it, ask Egypt, Rome, Great Britain, Spain, France, Germany and Russia and all the other past world leaders.

Leapers will fill the lower end market, this is true, But they are not machined from billet aluminum, they are crapped out using the cheapest shit they can find, period. If you want a five dollar gun then go with leapers, knock yourself out. Its not that are manufacturing trades that are to blame, its the fact you won't work for $1.25 per day like people do in china, you can't, and nor can I. Quote" Just the way it is I'm afraid and there is NOTHING we can do about it" Sorry you feel that way, are you going to have that same attitude when they try and take your guns? As Americans we can turn this around, there are many numbers in the formula for success, example, when I started manufacturing Chaos rails, there was none other than a few Halo's floating around. So I brought a high quality rail system to the market at a fair market value, the fastest way I could, machined out of solid aluminum at a time when aluminum cost the highest in my life time. I crossed the tipping point four months back. I had to, in order to face both the demand, and competition. I've gone to an extruded rail system. Now this is where it gets interesting, I could have outsourced to china just like all these other assholes, but instead here's what I did. I researched and contacted people night and day, until I found a USA company who shares the same values I do. One who can push 6061 and hold the tolerances I demand, so that my new rail system will be less in cost and still retain 98% of its original strength characteristics. Sure the cost is more but it is helping to feed families like yours, you know in the USA, hell it may be your family. What difference does it make you say, well how many china representatives do you see here in this community answering your questions over and over, or able to call and talk to on the phone. Just how involved do you see these assholes getting in your community other than just taking your money and running, wake the fuck up. We have all allowed this to happen, its not the end my friend, its just the beginning, but sit on your hands attitude and do nothing is horse shit. I watched our manufacturing trade diminish for 24 yrs. Hell I'm not giving up, our forefathers don't and either am I. All I hear is bitching about how our country is going to hell and that china is taking over, but in the same breath these people will pay to the cause by buying cheap shitty shit from china, because people would rather have a little of everything, than something worth having. Its like cutting your own throat and whining about getting blood all over yourself! Not to mention if not for us USA manufactures you could even own this weapon.

Like I said a face you can't say no to, I am going with a Chaos rail. I may cost more, but it does weigh several oz less and 6061 is good material that leapers is not using. You definatly get what you pay for.

[RABIDFOX50 6]

I have been looking at rail systems for my S12 for a while now and I have decided to go with the Chaos full system. I just have to save the $$. I have been a AR15 nut for over 20 years now and I have seen some true crap made for it. UTG takes the cake. In no way shape or form will I ever buy their products after seeing a UTG rail fall apart in a patrol rifle class. Total junk and not even worthy to be within 10 miles of my weapons. I'm not rich but I also do not buy junk. I'd rather wait and save for the best product going. The Chaos rail is what I think the best having recently handled one on a friend's S12.

 

Everyone is free to do what they want and buy what they want. To each his own, however there are those who will buy a product on the cheap and regret the purchase later. Those are the ones who need to step back and take a hard look at what they are buying and where it comes from. China, Taiwan, or Bumfuck Egypt, it does not matter. I'd rather buy American for my Russian beauty...........

Edited April 16, 2009 by RABIDFOX50

[Patriot12 11]

I have been looking at rail systems for my S12 for a while now and I have decided to go with the Chaos full system. I just have to save the $$. I have been a AR15 nut for over 20 years now and I have seen some true crap made for it. UTG takes the cake. In no way shape or form will I ever buy their products after seeing a UTG rail fall apart in a patrol rifle class. Total junk and not even worthy to be within 10 miles of my weapons. I'm not rich but I also do not buy junk. I'd rather wait and save for the best product going. The Chaos rail is what I think the best having recently handled one on a friend's S12.

 

Everyone is free to do what they want and buy what they want. To each his own, however there are those who will buy a product on the cheap and regret the purchase later. Those are the ones who need to step back and take a hard look at what they are buying and where it comes from. China, Taiwan, or Bumfuck Egypt, it does not matter. I'd rather buy American for my Russian beauty...........

+1. I find it interesting that Cameron mentions that his rail is made from 6061 aluminum, but leapers does not go into detail on their sight or cataloge as to the type of metal used. They do say that theirs is aircraft grade aluminum, but that is not the same as 6061 aluminum. Leapers also weighs about 3OZ more than the Chaos rail. More weight and cheeper material definatly translates into lower price. You definatly get what you pay for.

[vbrtrmn 167]

Cheers Cameron!!

 

When you guys buy your Leapers rails, be sure you add on at least 2 lasers, that is the minimum legal requirement for mall ninjas!

 

I was incorrect about Taiwan being PRC, it is ROC, as mentioned above. The ROC is run under a semi-presidential system, so I was incorrect in calling them Communists; I still wouldn't buy it.

 

When I see a red blooded American arguing about how he wants to buy cheap Chinese crap, it just makes me mad.

[Bvamp 604]

Cheers Cameron!!

 

When you guys buy your Leapers rails, be sure you add on at least 2 lasers, that is the minimum legal requirement for mall ninjas!

 

I was incorrect about Taiwan being PRC, it is ROC, as mentioned above. The ROC is run under a semi-presidential system, so I was incorrect in calling them Communists; I still wouldn't buy it.

 

When I see a red blooded American arguing about how he wants to buy cheap Chinese crap, it just makes me mad.

 

LOL I just happened to call Cameron about something when he was typing his reply above. It was an interesting discussion, to say the least.

 

As for the leapers rail, well, its not really made for combat, more made for sporting use. It is extruded as well. The rep at Leapers SAID as much at SHOT this winter. It is an affordable alternative out there, but you get what you pay for.

 

Cameron's rail, well, its a weapon all by itself, really, as anyone that owns one can attest to. I am friends with Mr. Cam, yeh, but it doesnt change the fact that his product is one of the best of its kind in the world. Again, you get what you pay for.

[Patriot12 11]

Cheers Cameron!!

 

When you guys buy your Leapers rails, be sure you add on at least 2 lasers, that is the minimum legal requirement for mall ninjas!

 

I was incorrect about Taiwan being PRC, it is ROC, as mentioned above. The ROC is run under a semi-presidential system, so I was incorrect in calling them Communists; I still wouldn't buy it.

 

When I see a red blooded American arguing about how he wants to buy cheap Chinese crap, it just makes me mad.

 

LOL I just happened to call Cameron about something when he was typing his reply above. It was an interesting discussion, to say the least.

 

As for the leapers rail, well, its not really made for combat, more made for sporting use. It is extruded as well. The rep at Leapers SAID as much at SHOT this winter. It is an affordable alternative out there, but you get what you pay for.

 

Cameron's rail, well, its a weapon all by itself, really, as anyone that owns one can attest to. I am friends with Mr. Cam, yeh, but it doesnt change the fact that his product is one of the best of its kind in the world. Again, you get what you pay for.

I see that the Chaos rail is on back order, anyone know when more will come in?

[cvhanh20 1,052]

Cheers Cameron!!

 

When you guys buy your Leapers rails, be sure you add on at least 2 lasers, that is the minimum legal requirement for mall ninjas!

 

I was incorrect about Taiwan being PRC, it is ROC, as mentioned above. The ROC is run under a semi-presidential system, so I was incorrect in calling them Communists; I still wouldn't buy it.

 

When I see a red blooded American arguing about how he wants to buy cheap Chinese crap, it just makes me mad.

 

LOL I just happened to call Cameron about something when he was typing his reply above. It was an interesting discussion, to say the least.

 

As for the leapers rail, well, its not really made for combat, more made for sporting use. It is extruded as well. The rep at Leapers SAID as much at SHOT this winter. It is an affordable alternative out there, but you get what you pay for.

 

Cameron's rail, well, its a weapon all by itself, really, as anyone that owns one can attest to. I am friends with Mr. Cam, yeh, but it doesnt change the fact that his product is one of the best of its kind in the world. Again, you get what you pay for.

I see that the Chaos rail is on back order, anyone know when more will come in?

Just Made another batch but they're gone already, but we will be flooding the saiga market very soon with high quality rails, both Quad and Tri, so everyone can get a shot at one.

[mscottrogers 56]

centerfire lists them at 60.00

 

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/saiga12ga...hdg-sai-12.aspx

worth looking at for that price until Cameron gets more available

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Well, since Cameron Hadley himself decided to chime in... (why don't you tell us what you really think of Leapers? ), I took another look at the Chaos website. The products look excellent... now I just have to convince myself to spend over 1/2 of the cost of the shotgun for a quad-rail. Leaper's comes in at ~$70... hmmm. Actually I have a friend who already ordered a Leaper's.. so I'll probably test that one first before making a decision.

 

I'd really prefer to support American small business rather than Taiwanese sweat-shops.. but we're in the economy we're in, (thanks so much for the recession, Fed Gubmint assholes).. and the majority of my disposable income has to go toward stockpiling 7.62x39mm.

[jiggahertz 0]

How the hell is it possible for Leapers to sell this for $60 and the Chaos rail is $265? Aluminum is running around $.66 per pound, looks like a block of 6061 costs $65. The machines to make these cannot be cheap, and what kind of man hours are needed to machine a quad rail? Is it all labor costs?

 

This is just scary! How are we (USA) supposed to compete when they (China) can undercut us by 441%? I agree with post-apoc about wanting to support American business, but there is a serious shortfall here. It's starting to look like we've Walmart'ed ourselves into a corner supporting the PRC or ROC (whichever) for so long. I am still confused on how we went from fighting communism to sucking on the red teat? Almost everything in the store beside food is made in China now. But I am sure that is a thread for another forum. I completely agree with Cameron about not sitting on our hands and choosing to buy American, but I won't be buying either as I am loosing my job in two months and having a bitch of a time finding anything that pays a decent wage.

[52brandon 0]

Leapers site is saying late may now

[johnnyboy 0]

The China suppling everything is happening all over the world, New Zealand included. I certainly try to buy NZ made.

 

I would love to support American industry and purchase a Chaos rail, i recon they are the ducks nuts, but exchange rate, shipping and the fact chaos don't ship overseas screws that right up!

 

I can get a UTG locally, so i guess i'll just have to suffer.

[cvhanh20 1,052]

Well, since Cameron Hadley himself decided to chime in... (why don't you tell us what you really think of Leapers? ), I took another look at the Chaos website. The products look excellent... now I just have to convince myself to spend over 1/2 of the cost of the shotgun for a quad-rail. Leaper's comes in at ~$70... hmmm. Actually I have a friend who already ordered a Leaper's.. so I'll probably test that one first before making a decision.

 

I'd really prefer to support American small business rather than Taiwanese sweat-shops.. but we're in the economy we're in, (thanks so much for the recession, Fed Gubmint assholes).. and the majority of my disposable income has to go toward stockpiling 7.62x39mm.

You'll get what you pay for while strengthening your dependency on china, I don't sweat leapers, like I said they fill in the lower end market, we sell every rail we build with no problems. Just goes to show that a lot people still want a Cadillac. Although we are taking steps as I stated above to lower the cost to the customer, but you can't please everyone. I had a dealer who has had leapers in hand, and a Chaos at the same time and remarked, if people would see them this way there is no way they would go with the leapers. I disagreed by saying some people are going to buy cheap no matter what the out come. Like I said a five dollar!

[cvhanh20 1,052]

How the hell is it possible for Leapers to sell this for $60 and the Chaos rail is $265? Aluminum is running around $.66 per pound, looks like a block of 6061 costs $65. The machines to make these cannot be cheap, and what kind of man hours are needed to machine a quad rail? Is it all labor costs?

 

This is just scary! How are we (USA) supposed to compete when they (China) can undercut us by 441%? I agree with post-apoc about wanting to support American business, but there is a serious shortfall here. It's starting to look like we've Walmart'ed ourselves into a corner supporting the PRC or ROC (whichever) for so long. I am still confused on how we went from fighting communism to sucking on the red teat? Almost everything in the store beside food is made in China now. But I am sure that is a thread for another forum. I completely agree with Cameron about not sitting on our hands and choosing to buy American, but I won't be buying either as I am loosing my job in two months and having a bitch of a time finding anything that pays a decent wage.

The machine is a $285,000.00 MAZAK horizontal machining center, there is a lot to making these rails, believe me we are not getting rich but we put into the rails what is needed to make them what they are, top of line.

How are we (USA) supposed to compete when they (China) can undercut us by 441%?

Its simple, you have to work for $1.25 per day and live in a communist country that was lucky enough to convince the number one superpower that they could do all of their dirty old manufacturing work so the rich people wouldn't have to deal with all of your demands, like wanting a better life, more money, less hours. Its perpetual motion at this point. But I will say this, we the people better wake the fuck up and demand that our industries be brought back in full swing or we can all kiss are asses good bye.

[Azrial 1,091]

....But I will say this, we the people better wake the fuck up and demand that our industries be brought back in full swing or we can all kiss are asses good bye.

No country can claim to be a "superpower" that lacks the capability to mass manufacture metal and tool it.

[lipadj46 2]

The machine is a $285,000.00 MAZAK horizontal machining center, there is a lot to making these rails, believe me we are not getting rich but we put into the rails what is needed to make them what they are, top of line.

 

Believe me I understand that it costs big bucks to make things in the US. I don't begrudge your prices or you wanting to make a bit of profit either. It is our poiliticians that let our industry walk out, no, encouraged it to leave in the name of pure free market capitalism. I'm so socialist but it should have been easy to predict the position we are in today and they should have done something to protect us but politicians somehow believed we can be a country of managers and service providers. Believe me the countries we are outsourcing eveything to have figured out they don't need us anymore to show them how to operate.

 

We need to do something about this before all the people who understand how to manufacture things are dead and the knowledge is lost forever in this country.

Edited April 19, 2009 by lipadj46

[havok 21]

I really don't see how any one on this site could say buy USA made products and bash other products not made in the USA. I guess some of you forgot we are all holding Russian made guns. Last time I looked at a map Russia is not a US state. And all of us on this site are looking to fix, change, buy and sell parts for these Russian guns we love. Now if we are talking about US made guns and I mean made in the USA not designed in the US I would agree with what you guys and gals are preaching.

[cvhanh20 1,052]

[Bvamp 604]

Cam - every last person at the Leapers booth was chinese and spoke chinese. A few spoke good english.

[vintagedude88 16]

centerfire lists them at 60.00

 

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/saiga12ga...hdg-sai-12.aspx

 

Wow! I find that hard to believe! What's their delivery? Somewhere close to never???? I just checked David's Collectables and his sight has changed from 2nd week in April to last week in April. And now theres news that it might be May???? Maybe I'll cancel my order and give up on this idea.

 

BTW with all this flap about U.S. vs China regarding quality, no one has mentioned anything about the quality of the SGM plastic rails which are the cheapest by far. Many on the picture thread have that "plastic" rail and stand behind it. So is the Leapers so called "aircraft" grade Chinese "crap" aluminum worse than the U.S. made SGM Dupont plastic?

 

Lets just put it this way.. Some people can afford Cadillacs, some people can afford Chevys and some people can afford Scions. They all are functional for its intended purpose to a certain extent. Except some are better at it than others. So hence you get what you pay for. But in this free market economy which we all enjoy in America, everyone at all different pricepoints and budget levels can be satisfied with product that fits their need and means. Saying that only certain products should be available and purchased because of its origin and price level and whatever will shut out others in the market and that is Un-American.

 

Here's an example, many years ago Germany banned the Japanese from selling consumer electronics to protect the German electronics industry. The result was that if you wanted to buy something as simple as a cordless telephone, you have to buy the German brand Grundig for $400USD and there was nothing else available. Cordless phones are available here in the U.S. made from various countries for anything from $20 -$50 so imagine yourself not being able to buy something as simple as a cordless telephone or any average everyday electronics item because you would have to spend a fortune just to buy those items.

 

Cameron/Chaos doesn't need to compete on price, he just need to compete on quality and emphasize that about his product. You don't see Cadillacs competing in the market with Scion do you? So why should Chaos need to worry about competing with Leapers? It shouldn't matter. People who are willing to spend on quality will always choose Chaos and people who are budget minded and willing to sacrifice some quality will choose Leapers. Its that simple.