ProMag Saiga 223 Mags: A Detailed reason to avoid.

[Pathfind3r 0]

So I am always skeptical when someone says that a product "sucks!" but thats all they say. You can't tell if they are a snob that has to have the highest quality of something and doesn't care about price or dollar value, or if the product is really bad. I bought two .223 ProMags for my Saiga to see if they were truely crap. They are.

 

Here is why:

 

In order to emulate the built in feed ramp of a true saiga magazine, they just add a little plastic tab to the front that breaks instantly the first time you use it. After my first one broke the first time I chambered a round, I examined it and decided to try filing the 2nd one down to a nice rounded edge and making sure there was room for the round to go over it. Broke.

 

The design of these make it impossible to work. The "feed ramp" is a straight verticle tab that is taller than the diameter of the bullet so that it doesn't even begin to feed, it just collides. Even after fixing this on the second mag, it still broke because its a tiny little plastic tab.

 

Please avoid these mags and save up for a better one.

 

It is important to note that some people claim promags work for them. Maybe they do. I have a theory that in many "promag worked for me!" cases, what happens is the tab breaks and the strong bolt is just slamming the bullet into the chaber with no feed. This results in mutiliated ammo before firing. I tried this, and technicaly the gun will chamber a round with no feedramp if you let it slam hard enough, but the result is a damaged round. Maybe people do not notice or care if their bullet is deformed before firing.

[csspecs 1,987]

And in other cases some like myself mention that they have a working promag but that it is a normal .223 AK mag and they have a feed ramp.

 

The ones I have function, they are not that great. But with a correct feed ramp they can be made to function.

 

I think I paid 11.00 each for mine.

 

Your right about their feed ramp. What they have is a total fail, it will work for a mag full at best.

[Azrial 1,091]

I have bought ProMags over the years for a variety of firearms I own. I have seldom had much luck with them. They usually fail to feed ans I think that their spring manufacture is inconsistent.

 

Several of us tried to tell folks when they were all excited that ProMag was coming out with some Saiga offerings that they would likely be crap. We were shouted down by the idiots that always seem to think that newer is always better!

 

Well we were right and you were wrong!

 

Sorry, it had to be done.

[GreenEye 1]

my promags (10), correct saiga ones with "bullet guide" molded on the mag, have held up well. They have not broken and they work flawless for me. one of my promags probably has close to 1K out of it without any misfeeds or breakage of any kind, and no deformed rounds. If your mag broke on the first round chambered, you either got a couple bad mags or it is your gun that is "out of spec". I have seen ak's that the same mag varies in seat height as much as 1/8 of an inch from one gun to the next.

 

Just my $.02

[Pathfind3r 0]

my promags (10), correct saiga ones with "bullet guide" molded on the mag, have held up well. They have not broken and they work flawless for me. one of my promags probably has close to 1K out of it without any misfeeds or breakage of any kind, and no deformed rounds. If your mag broke on the first round chambered, you either got a couple bad mags or it is your gun that is "out of spec". I have seen ak's that the same mag varies in seat height as much as 1/8 of an inch from one gun to the next.

 

Just my $.02

 

 

Like I said, the magazines themselves were impossible to work. The feed ramp is a verticle plastic tab that extends higher than the cartridge, so it is just brick wall collision, except plastic instead of brick

 

No word back from ProMag customer support in 2 days. I send them an email with pictures and receipts, and requested they send me Glock 19 mags to replace them, as the 223 mags are flawed by design.

[Pathfind3r 0]

And in other cases some like myself mention that they have a working promag but that it is a normal .223 AK mag and they have a feed ramp.

 

The ones I have function, they are not that great. But with a correct feed ramp they can be made to function.

 

I think I paid 11.00 each for mine.

 

Your right about their feed ramp. What they have is a total fail, it will work for a mag full at best.

 

 

The normal .223 AK promag is not in question here. This topic is about the saiga specific one.

[Irish John 0]

And in other cases some like myself mention that they have a working promag but that it is a normal .223 AK mag and they have a feed ramp.

 

The ones I have function, they are not that great. But with a correct feed ramp they can be made to function.

 

I think I paid 11.00 each for mine.

 

Your right about their feed ramp. What they have is a total fail, it will work for a mag full at best.

 

 

The normal .223 AK promag is not in question here. This topic is about the saiga specific one.

 

 

Promags are certainly somewhat disposable. However in my experience they work. Those that don't or those that break get returned to ProMag for replacement, which they do quickly with no questions ask.

 

I have found that their AK .223 mags work great in my Saiga with no modifications, including without a bullet guide. I use the same mags with a little modification in my Galil.

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

Picked up a ProMag AK-A5 model for the AK in .223 at local hardware store, and could not get it to lock in the rear catch of the rifle. Guy at hardware said I can return it if it doesn't work, no questions asked. I had ordered one for the Saiga .223 in 30 rd last night before the stroms hit and knocked out our electricity. Will have to see when it get's here. This AK-A5 looks like it can "almost" fit, just lacks a very little bit.

 

Would there be a difference in the 30 rd as compared to the 20 rd magazine?

[Irish John 0]

I use the ProMag model AK-A10 for both my .223 Saiga and my Galil.

[Bean.223 365]

Its sad to, in my opinion I think they LOOK better than the Surefires.....but I guess substance over satire.....

[Paulry 50]

Has anyone called them out on this? If so, what do they say?

[nalioth 405]

Has anyone called them out on this? If so, what do they say?

They have a lifetime warranty. They just tell you to send it back for a replacement.

 

 

 

 

If you buy a pro-mag, you need to buy three.

 

One that will always be in the mail back to the factory.

 

One that hasn't broken yet.

 

One that is on the way back from the factory.

[Paulry 50]

Sounds like they don't really care about the design.

 

Thanks N

[MesaCranker 0]

The bottom of the bolt is what was hitting my first one. It was slightly clipping my second. I filed it down just a HAIR until it didn't hit and I have never had a problem out of it after that after 500+ rounds.

[Irish John 0]

I am not sure about the difference between the A5 and A10 mags. My experience with ProMag is their customer service is great. Break a mag, send it back, get a new one in the mail, no questions ask and fast turnaround. As for modifications, none seem to be needed to make the A10 .223 mags run in the Saiga. Mine feed just like an OEM mag. Best part about it is the ProMag AK A10 .223 mag costs about $15 as opposed to their Galil or Saiga specified mags which run $33. If anyone has a Galil or one of the Golani's the only mods need is to shave a bit off of the tops of the fee lips to get them to lock up. Occaisionally I have had to slightly open up the back of the mag to clear the bolt but most work with no modification. The best part is I can use the same mags between 2 different weapons and you don't have to install a bullet feed ramp on your Saiga.

[uzitiger 193]

I would call Pro Mag and tell them what happened and let them know what needs to be done to make them work right without breaking.

 

I've owned different Pro Mag magazines and they always worked right for me. The Ruger 10/22 magazine works bettr with 23 rounds instead of 25 and the 20 round magazine for the Ruger Mini-14 needed some sanding to fit better and fall freely. Their 30 round Mini-14 works like a factory mag. I also have a some mags for the AK (I have a feed ramp) and a magazine for the Saiga S-12 which work flawlessly.

 

They're not paying me to say this either. If I had one which I wasn't satisfied I would let the forum know about it.

[Pointer55 1]

I am sure promag, like EVERY other manufacturer on this planet, has had their share of quality control issues. I am equally sure there are some guys that seem to have problems with everything they wrap their mitts around.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Pointer55

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

Was at On Target in Kalamazoo, MI this evening and bought a side mount scope mount for it with rails on side and top AND it clears the dust cover on top and I can remove all the parts to clean it without messing with the scope. Another one I saw, screwed onto the screw just behind the dust cover latch, and the front onto the rear sight after you took it off. Didn't like that idea. Also got a set of Weaver rings for the top rail.

 

Also got a SureFire 30 rd magazine. They were pretty proud of them at 41.00 so only bought one. Had some odds and ends of magazines, used, in a box, and even had some that were plastic, but looked like wood. So will see how the SureFire and ProMag compare.

[GregM1 241]

there are plenty of posts about the surefire mags. i have a 15 and 30 rnd. neither have had any errors and i have used them for about 5 - 6 reloads each.

[Bad Bob 0]

Has anyone called them out on this? If so, what do they say?

They have a lifetime warranty. They just tell you to send it back for a replacement.

 

 

 

 

If you buy a pro-mag, you need to buy three.

 

One that will always be in the mail back to the factory.

 

One that hasn't broken yet.

 

One that is on the way back from the factory.

 

Bump!

 

(DO NOT GO CHEAP ON YOUR MAGS! A BAD MAG WILL GET YOU KILLED! Unless you're like me, and only shoot at paper targets, and soup cans. And even then, I USE MIL-SPEC MAGS... ;>)

Edited June 26, 2009 by Bad Bob

[mstranglr 9]

I have not had luck with Promags. I bought 3 30 rounders because they looked cool and were cheap, and all of them eventually broke. I have a couple of 10 rnd 7.62x39 Promags that still work, but the followers hang up sometimes.

 

My experience: Find the cheapest, rustiest, most scratched up, dented, dirty, ugly, cosmoline encrusted steel commie mag you can find and it will run flawless forever. I am firmly convinced that much of the reputation for reliability that AKs enjoy is a direct result of those stamped steel mags. It would be nice if we had a good source of 223 mags like this as most of the problems I have seen with 223 AKs are magazine related.

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

If I recall correctly, there is a modification to the rifle to allow you to use AR-15 or M-16 steel .223 magazines in you .223 Saiga. Is this not correct? Then if that be, there are plenty of steel magazines out there.

 

Here is the link to the article (with excellent photographs) AR-15 Magazine Adapter

Edited June 27, 2009 by Darth AkSarBen

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

Also, got my ProMag 30 rd in the UPS this evening. Fits great in the rifle. I see the problem. The SureFire is beefier at that point of the built in bullet guide. It has much better support for the bullets pressing against it and with it's support is nearly impossible to break off in normal useage. However, the Pro Mag is just a nylon tab with no back support....... so I fixed that.

 

I will post pictures of the re-design, after I have a chance to field test it. Otherwise, I like it better then the Sure Fire. Feed in the magazine well excellent.

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

Pictures of the modified Pro-Mag 30 rd magazine, with some details.

1st picture is the Pro-Mag side by side with standard issue, OEM 10 rd. You will note on the 10rd OEM the place at the top of the magazine where the front lip first contacts the bullet to guide it up into the chamber that the OEM is very supported, whereas on the left, you can see in the dark part the thinner "tab" that is used as a bullet guide. On this Pro-Mag, and it came with different packaging than the above OP picture, the feed lips are about the right height, not a "brick wall" for the end of the bullet, but positioned so that the bullet will start the upward climb into the breech. Notice also that I have rounded the initial point where the bullet meets, sort of polished it, with that Emory cloth with jewelers rouge. Simply place small strip over the magazine follower, place finger firmly on top of the bullet guide and pull the Emory cloth forward (this case from left to right) while applying some pressure with your finger down on the feed tip. Repeat this. This is plastic, and as such you would not want to get aggressive with sandpaper, as it would roughen it up and defeat what you are after. What you are AFTER is a very smooth and curved surface for the bullet to glide up on and past as it leaves the magazine. The more polished a part is, the less friction and resistance it has, which, in this case, give less stress to the bullet guide.

 

Notice that I also put on a 2 part epoxy in the front to beef up the support of that simple and very thin tab. Had Pro-Mag put a little more plastic there in the front, as in this modification, you probably would not be seeing these things going back to the factory for replacement. It's their engineering SNAFU which is costing them money for replacements as the design is lacking.

 

This next picture shows the Pro-Mag from an angle looking down. You can see the amount of extra support of the 2 part epoxy that I added. This supports pressure that exerted against the lip of the bullet feed and helps with stability of that piece. Coupled with the polished rounded beginning of that feed lip tab, it should now be strong enough to resist breakage.

[hobbyshooter 59]

My co-worker had 2 promags that did the exact same thing. Broke the bullet guide clean off. He also had 2 Surefires that he runs with zero issues.

 

I haven't tried pro-mag based on his experience and advice but I have 3 surefires that run flawlessly. I have a tight gun though so fitting was required (would have been required for ANY mag imo).

 

I just wanted to throw another .2 cents into the bucket. It seems the pro-mags are hit or miss, with the majority weighing over to miss.

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

I also opened up the magazine area just a tad. Refer to this thread: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry320329 There is a tab by the magazine catch/release. I made it more even with the rest of the receiver, as I understand that it was put there to keep from using military magazine. Well, after I did that, I could not believe how much better it is to insert and remove the magazine now. Locks tight into position and comes out well. Even the Pro-Mag, which seems to be holding up rather nicely after the reinforcement I did to it. Wonder why ProMag does not just do it there at the factory? All it would take is a simple change on the mold of the plastic injection molding.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Darth AkSarBen

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

Must come in and give an update to anyone checking in on this thread. I put epoxy on the front for better support of the bullet feed. First time fired, the extra epoxy I put on flaked off the magazine. Magazine still functioned, but it did not have the extra support. So, I tried with JB Weld, figuring that this sticky stuff will adhere to the plastic better then the harder 2 part epoxy. Took several hours for it to set up, and upon inspection and some minor filing looked terrific. First test firing, it, too, broke off. The bullet guide still remains, but it is really lacking in support with the bullets riding forward and into the magazine. Don't know what I could use to "stick" to that plastic, but I know that without the extra support it is just a matter of time.

 

Also I took the spring out and I don't give it too high of points. The guide does not position the bullet correctly unless you push down slightly with your finger on the bullet for it to leave the magazine without slamming into the feed lip tab. It probably alleviates this problem with the action of the bolt and simple recoil and movement. Still, it seems to be a weak spring and poorly designed follower.

 

Sure Fire cost more, but I think they are worth the extra pennies. When I buy another magazine it is definitely going to be a Sure Fire, and not a ProMag magazine. Difference in quality it quite obvious.

[Pathfind3r 0]

Thanks everyone for contributing your stories.

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

One other thing I noticed is that with the Pro Mag the cartridges do not always "pop up" ready for the next stripping from the magazine into the chamber. They seem to do it while in the firearm, and that may be because of the recoil, movement of the bolt, and / or both. However, when you want to remove the cartridge from the magazine, they sometimes just pop up a bit, but the front, the bullet part did not fully pop up, and if you were to shove hard, it would go straight against the magazine body, just below or at the tab where the bullet guide is located. So, I looked and noticed something esle. The Pro Mag has a more angled curve to it than the Sure Fire magazine. The pictures illustrate this. With the Sure Fire, the magazine holds 30, just like the Pro Mag, but the curvature of the whole magaizine is more straight, and I truly believe that this is a factor in why the bullets nest up so nicely in the Sure Fire magazine for stripping out. Had the Pro Mag done 3 things. Increase the tension of their springs, perhaps by one more coil, or just ever so slightly heavier gauge wire, and lessened the angle on their magazine, and increased the bullet feed lip with greater back structural support, they would have had an excellent magazine that anyone would find hard to fault, let alone return for damgages.

 

Pro Mag on the left, and Sure Fire on the right:

 

Pro Mag on top of the Sure Fire magazine. Both 30 rd:

 

I understand some engineering. Had to. Grew up on a farm/ranch in Nebr. The Pro Mag would be on the back shelf somewhere as an emergency only replacement until the Sure Fire magazine came back into stock. My opinion.

 

[davidb72 0]

I was just coming over to the forum to report on my ProMags...

 

LOL... They broke the feed "tabs" off the first time I tried to put ten rounds through them.

 

I installed Dinzag's bullet guide and now the broken off tab ProMags work great.

 

I bought ten of them (seemed like a good deal) so now all I have to do is go break the tab off of the other 8 (shouldn't be a problem) and then I'll be good to go.

 

So, if you have Dinzag's (or anyone elses) bullet guide installed and see a good deal on the ProMag's, don't be scared, just break that worthless tab off and enjoy yourself!