voonman 133 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Can someone list a few Reasons why Saiga 12s tend to FTF..Even Though Gas ports have been widen...Mags have been Filed and smoothed..Bolt carrier has been polished...What else could cause saiga 12s to FTF?Your thoughts and Answers are much appreciated.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Failure to fire? The bolt's prob not going into battery. May need a little lube until broken in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) Do you mean failure to feed? That's usually a mag spring or feed angle issue. Unless you've opened up the gas system too much and the bolt is slamming the rear trunion than ricocheting forward too fast. Edited July 20, 2009 by hobbyshooter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
voonman 133 Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Do you mean failure to feed? That's usually a mag spring or feed angle issue. Unless you've opened up the gas system too much and the bolt is slamming the rear trunion than ricocheting forward too fast. Could it be an ammuniton problem? For Example... 20 rounds through the same mag without an FTF issue..then i fire another 10 and they start to FTF ..what does that mean? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mollysman420 19 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 same ammo different ammo need more details Fail to feed, or fail to fire Quote Link to post Share on other sites
voonman 133 Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 same ammo different ammo need more details Fail to feed, or fail to fire Failure to feed...And i am using the same ammo...Federal Wally world Value pack..#7 1/2 shot Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 same ammo different ammo need more details Fail to feed, or fail to fire Failure to feed...And i am using the same ammo...Federal Wally world Value pack..#7 1/2 shot So is the nose of the shell hitting the top of the barrel? Or are the shells coming up too slow out of the magazine? Or are the shells feeding into the chamber but not sliding forward that last inch or so? Polish the bolt face, polish the little channel that the extractor goes up, grease the lugs of the bolt, inspect the magazine. If the feed angle is off and the nose of the shell is hitting the top of the barrel you are going to have to correct that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 does it do this with the factory 5 rounder? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
deploy 0 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 I am having some trouble with this too, I am going to film the shells failing to feed in my gun later this week so I can better analyze what is happening. I can post the video if anyone would find it helpful. But If the feed angle is off and the nose of the shell is hitting the top of the barrel ... how do you correct this ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Just describe what's happening OK? Does the shell jam on the upper or lower part of the chamber? What ammo are you using? What magazine(s)? Does it do it when charging the piece or just during firing? What modifications (If any) have been done? Can you MAKE it work by using certain ammo, mags or firing stance? (Look, if you're firing 'from the hip' it matters OK?) When did it start doing this Failure to Feed? Until y'all answer ALL the above it will be a bit difficult to assist you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 I agree, If you're still having trouble, the more info we have, the easier it'll be to narrow the issue down. I've noticed the collective wisdom of the members here is phenominal. Not to hi-jack, but... I too have noticed occasional FTFs of the Federal #7.5 in my Saiga 12, but only on the first or second round of a fully loaded MD-20 drum and it jams against the top barrel extension, the plastic of the shell bunching up in the cutout where the extractor goes. I figure there's a sharp lip there, but I'm not sure. The drum is fairly well broken in, as is the shotgun. Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
voonman 133 Posted July 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 same ammo different ammo need more details Fail to feed, or fail to fire Failure to feed...And i am using the same ammo...Federal Wally world Value pack..#7 1/2 shot So is the nose of the shell hitting the top of the barrel? Or are the shells coming up too slow out of the magazine? Or are the shells feeding into the chamber but not sliding forward that last inch or so? Polish the bolt face, polish the little channel that the extractor goes up, grease the lugs of the bolt, inspect the magazine. If the feed angle is off and the nose of the shell is hitting the top of the barrel you are going to have to correct that. THe shells are feeding into the chamber but not sliding forward...I am using my promags and my standard 5 rounder that came with the gun..And i have these problems occasionaly...As for instance the first 20 or even thirty rounds would cycle fine using either my promag or my standard five rounder..Then al of a sudden i will get a FTF twice or even three times from all the mags..Do you think possibly that the gun has built up too much debri in the gas chamber causing it to be under gassed? Also when i shoot i usually hold the gun by my hip..Does this also cause a problem?My gun also has had a full pistol grip conversion done,but i dont believe that has nothing to do with it..I am trying to figure out if federal is having a Quality Control issue just like winchester is having with there cheap stuff that they sell at walmart...I may have to try the Remington 100 round pack to see if i am having the same problems.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gtnichols 51 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 I was having the same or a very similar problem (still am) with my newest converted S-12 on low brass, Mine seems to not want to chamber, I also noticed some deep scratches occuring on the plastic shell casing chambering and ejecting, these are (i think) causing it to have to much resistance while feeding and ejecting low brass. Happened with all low-brass brands I tried. I think my feed lip is bent, or whatever you call the part that the top of each round slides along to the chamber,...that's where the scratches are coming from FWIW,.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 If the feed angle is off and the nose of the shell is hitting the top of the barrel ... how do you correct this ? I would start off by polishing the bolt face so the ring of the shell can slide up the bolt more freely. You can also smooth the lip that the nose of the shell is catching on but I wouldn't recommend removing any metal. Just smooth it, and try it. You don't want to use a dremel or anything that moves perpendicular to the feed direction. You just want to make sure there isn't any sharp edges or burrs hanging down that could potentially grab the shell. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 THe shells are feeding into the chamber but not sliding forward...I am using my promags and my standard 5 rounder that came with the gun..And i have these problems occasionaly...As for instance the first 20 or even thirty rounds would cycle fine using either my promag or my standard five rounder..Then al of a sudden i will get a FTF twice or even three times from all the mags..Do you think possibly that the gun has built up too much debri in the gas chamber causing it to be under gassed? Also when i shoot i usually hold the gun by my hip..Does this also cause a problem?My gun also has had a full pistol grip conversion done,but i dont believe that has nothing to do with it..I am trying to figure out if federal is having a Quality Control issue just like winchester is having with there cheap stuff that they sell at walmart...I may have to try the Remington 100 round pack to see if i am having the same problems.. Polish up the bolt face and the area that I and gas giant described in the post above. That is not the feed lips, feed lips are on the mag. A more appropriate name for it would be "bullet guide" I guess. that's probably where you problem is so start off by feeling around in there with your finger with the bolt removed for sharp spots. A picture showing where the shell is getting jammed up would tell us more as there are other potential things to snag the further the bolt gets to closing. Your gas system has nothing to do with how the shells feed into the chamber. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nester 0 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) If the feed angle is off and the nose of the shell is hitting the top of the barrel ... how do you correct this ? I would start off by polishing the bolt face so the ring of the shell can slide up the bolt more freely. You can also smooth the lip that the nose of the shell is catching on but I wouldn't recommend removing any metal. Just smooth it, and try it. You don't want to use a dremel or anything that moves perpendicular to the feed direction. You just want to make sure there isn't any sharp edges or burrs hanging down that could potentially grab the shell. Why is Voonman shooting the gun from his hip? FTF can be caused by insufficient resistance to recoil, which is needed for the gas system to function properly. He said the shell was feeding into the chamber but the bolt wasn't fully locked. Edited July 21, 2009 by Nester Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 same ammo different ammo need more details Fail to feed, or fail to fire Failure to feed...And i am using the same ammo...Federal Wally world Value pack..#7 1/2 shot So is the nose of the shell hitting the top of the barrel? Or are the shells coming up too slow out of the magazine? Or are the shells feeding into the chamber but not sliding forward that last inch or so? Polish the bolt face, polish the little channel that the extractor goes up, grease the lugs of the bolt, inspect the magazine. If the feed angle is off and the nose of the shell is hitting the top of the barrel you are going to have to correct that. THe shells are feeding into the chamber but not sliding forward...I am using my promags and my standard 5 rounder that came with the gun..And i have these problems occasionaly...As for instance the first 20 or even thirty rounds would cycle fine using either my promag or my standard five rounder..Then al of a sudden i will get a FTF twice or even three times from all the mags..Do you think possibly that the gun has built up too much debri in the gas chamber causing it to be under gassed? Also when i shoot i usually hold the gun by my hip..Does this also cause a problem?My gun also has had a full pistol grip conversion done,but i dont believe that has nothing to do with it..I am trying to figure out if federal is having a Quality Control issue just like winchester is having with there cheap stuff that they sell at walmart...I may have to try the Remington 100 round pack to see if i am having the same problems.. Okay, You don't have a failure to feed, you have a failure to go into battery. Take the shell out. Is it deeply scratched? Is there debris in the chamber? If scratched the shell is possibly catching on something. If not it's possible the ammo is goofy or it's your holding it from the hip. Does it EVER do it when you fire from the shoulder? If it runs OK from the shoulder there's your sign. Saigas don't usually like El-Cheapo low brass ammo to start with. Combine that with firing from the hip and there you go. And do tell why you're firing from the hip with # 7 1/2 shot? I had a friend with a semi-auto pistol that jammed constantly. It worked fine for me. He was 'Limp wristing' it. Same deal applies to Saiga shotguns. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rogertc1 4 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 same ammo different ammo need more details Fail to feed, or fail to fire Failure to feed...And i am using the same ammo...Federal Wally world Value pack..#7 1/2 shot So is the nose of the shell hitting the top of the barrel? Or are the shells coming up too slow out of the magazine? Or are the shells feeding into the chamber but not sliding forward that last inch or so? Polish the bolt face, polish the little channel that the extractor goes up, grease the lugs of the bolt, inspect the magazine. If the feed angle is off and the nose of the shell is hitting the top of the barrel you are going to have to correct that. Here is my thread on a failure to eject...I had been contacted for service and sent it back...Great service. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=42488 THe shells are feeding into the chamber but not sliding forward...I am using my promags and my standard 5 rounder that came with the gun..And i have these problems occasionaly...As for instance the first 20 or even thirty rounds would cycle fine using either my promag or my standard five rounder..Then al of a sudden i will get a FTF twice or even three times from all the mags..Do you think possibly that the gun has built up too much debri in the gas chamber causing it to be under gassed? Also when i shoot i usually hold the gun by my hip..Does this also cause a problem?My gun also has had a full pistol grip conversion done,but i dont believe that has nothing to do with it..I am trying to figure out if federal is having a Quality Control issue just like winchester is having with there cheap stuff that they sell at walmart...I may have to try the Remington 100 round pack to see if i am having the same problems.. Okay, You don't have a failure to feed, you have a failure to go into battery. Take the shell out. Is it deeply scratched? Is there debris in the chamber? If scratched the shell is possibly catching on something. If not it's possible the ammo is goofy or it's your holding it from the hip. Does it EVER do it when you fire from the shoulder? If it runs OK from the shoulder there's your sign. Saigas don't usually like El-Cheapo low brass ammo to start with. Combine that with firing from the hip and there you go. And do tell why you're firing from the hip with # 7 1/2 shot? I had a friend with a semi-auto pistol that jammed constantly. It worked fine for me. He was 'Limp wristing' it. Same deal applies to Saiga shotguns. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
deploy 0 Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Just describe what's happening OK? OK, So I have been at the range all day and here is what I have come up with for my gun. I have an unmodified s12 24" with a promag. I picked up a case of Federal multi-purpose load 2-3/4 1200 fps 7-1/2 shot, a case of Remington sport loads 2-3/4 1200fps 8 shot, and a 4 boxes of Remington buckshot 2-3/4 1325fps 00BK. I know that that gas setting 1 is for heaver loads and 2 is for lighter loads. But since I was having Failure to Feed problems I decided to do some strong trouble shooting to get a better understating of the problem since ftf can be caused be so many different reasons. On setting 1 the 1200fps don't cycle the gun. It does not even try to blow the bolt back. So with the proper setting (2) for this type load it appears that my ftf are being cause by the bolt coming back two soon and catching the next shell. 99% of the ftf were fixed by slightly pulling back on the charging handle and letting the shell pop into place. I switched to the Remington buckshot high brass (gas setting 1). Must say they kick a little harder then the sport loads .. but my ftf increased. Every two shots constantly. Over the course of the day, I found a rhythm slow firm trigger pull every second would reduce my ftf but not eliminate them. As soon as I would try to pull them off right after another, the bolt would trap the the shells. halfway though the day my promag did something funky. The shell follower flipped inside the mag after the last shell. Every time now, after the last shot the blot will flip the mag and I will have to disassemble it and put it back together. What are your thoughts on fixing this FTF? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Are you having problems with the Factory 5 round mag also or just the promags? I've read of many problems with Promags. Next up: You need to read about 922R and get your parts count correct. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showforum=65 By inserting a non-sporting magazine you are "assembling" a non compliant weapon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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